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advise on emerald diamond decision

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george12

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
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Hi everybody,


I am really new in this and I have tried to follow as much of the discussion in the site as I could. I am interested in purchasing an emerald diamond one carat or above. My budget is around $5000.


I am aware that ideally for an emerald cut a viewing is essential but I want to get the best diamond I can get for my budget and as I understand it the internet seems the best place to buy and that the most important aspect seems to be the cut although especially for emeralds clarity seems to be particularly important as well. I am struggling though with all the different aspects one has to take into account and the lack of information on some websites.


I have 4 examples


Diamonds-usa


http://www.diamonds-usa.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.asp?oldwizard=Jewelries&wizard=Jewelries&JMask=10000&Did=17592&Jid=41&MetalID=17&MDSID=5


http://www.diamonds-usa.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.asp?oldwizard=Jewelries&wizard=Jewelries&JMask=10000&Did=17567&Jid=41&MetalID=17&MDSID=5



Bluenile

http://www.bluenile.co.uk/diamonds_details.asp?pid=LD00119267&filter_id=1


or


http://www.bluenile.co.uk/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD00946721&filter_id=1



I would appreciate any advise or any other suggestions for other diamonds etc. I live in the UK so viewing might be more complicated and I am sorry to the lack of information required for an emerald cut.

Thank you very much !


George
 
Hey George, welcome to PS
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It sounds as if you are off to a good start, EC's are a fab choice, so classic - but as you have read, tricky to evaluate the cut quality. You can't always judge fancies by the numbers, but it makes sense to have some idea of what the best proportions are so you aren't wasting weight and therefore appearant size, also getting a diamond which is too shallow. I will post the cut chart for EC's and Radiants which will give you some practical help.

here you go. http://diamonds.pricescope.com/fnc2.asp

The first 2 diamonds are EGL Europe graded, if you do a search you will see that some believe that EGL graded diamonds can be softer on grading than GIA. EGL USA is thought to be accurate in most circumstances, but the other divisions may not be. I would stick to GIA graded diamonds, especially as EC's are known to show inclusions and colour more than a round brilliant for example. Step cuts perform differently than rounds, and are less forgiving of colour and inclusions as they don't have the brilliance, also a well cut round's faceting arrangements can help too. You are best to choose a vendor who has the diamond in house, or at least can have the diamond called in so he can eyeball it for you.

Also, you can use the search tool here, as their is a lot of info on EC's, most vendors will be able to send you a pic of the diamonds by email, this will give you some idea of the length to width ratio and will give you a 'feel' for the character of each diamond.

Also good vendors who will help you each step of the way are

Whiteflash
Good Old Gold
James Allen
Wink Jones
Bill Pearlam
Mark at Engagement Rings Direct

You can always approach these guys who really know their stuff and take advantage of their knowledge and experience. I hope this helps.
 

Hi Lorelei,


thanks for the reply and the information !


I’ve read that the EGL reports can be softer. At one point I started reading so much and changing my opinion very often. I read though someone’s post in this site where the advice was not to get lost in the search for the perfect diamond and I realised that this was what I was after lacking though the sufficient knowledge required for such a task.


I checked the diamond I am leaning towards: http://www.diamonds-usa.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.asp?oldwizard=Jewelries&wizard=Jewelries&JMask=10000&Did=17592&Jid=41&MetalID=17&MDSID=5 against the cut chart in the site and found it to be within the premium cut. The site (diamonds-usa) classifies it as an ideal cut and although I think there is a tool that judges emeralds (I couldn’t find it though), I used the Holloway Cut Adviser to check round diamonds listed on the diamonds-usa site and they always seem to be getting a high mark. I would like to make the assumption here that since their ideal cut rating for rounds is good enough for Holloway Cut Adviser then hopefully their ideal cut rating for emeralds will also correspond to emeralds worth purchasing. But would this be a safe assumption ?


Thanks again for your invaluable help !


George
 
George, no I wouldn't think that was a safe assumption really....EC's as you know are a whole different ball of wax, the cut chart is a very useful tool and Dave who created it a true expert, so you can have confidence in that. Regarding vendor labels such as Ideal Cut, Premium Cut etc, you can't really go by these to judge cut. Vendors have their own criteria which may or may not be based on strict parameters for a true Ideal Cut - especially with fancies. You have to take it on a case by case basis and evaluate each diamond's set of proportions rather than going by a label. So no, I wouldn't advise you at all to trust that if a few of a vendor rounds have checked out on the HCA, that their EC's are likewise a great cut. If it was me, I would use a combination of the chart to check proportions with each contender - if one checks out with both the chart and just so happens to have an Ideal Cut or Premium label on it then fine. I would stick to GIA graded, EGL will carry a lower pricetag usually, but you can make an informed decision now as to what is best for your situation. Once I had found what I might be looking for, I would ask the vendor to check the diamond, if he approves then send me some pics via email. If you like what you see, go from there, if EGL graded definitely arrange for an independant appraisal and make the sale contingent on this to make sure the diamond is accurately graded. A good vendor will be totally fine with this request and can help arrange it. This could possibly be done in the States if you purchase from there. Make the best use of your vendor that you can, they can help you every step of the way.
 
George12,

Lorelei has given very good advice with regards to ECs.

1. No matter what the numbers on the cert says, it must be seen before a final selection is made. As I have recently seen here, just because the numbers are within the cut chart for being well cut doesn''t make it so because there are so many other facets that are not measured. The chart is just a tool to help eliminate the duds. After that first step, the EC must be seen for their step arrangement.

2. If you cannot get GIA (or is too pricy), EGL USA would be my next best choice for certification for the same reasons: more consistent grading.

3. Just because a vendor carries ideal cut rounds (HCA <2.0) does not mean that their fancy cuts are also within the premium cut range. I would not take that risk. Hence, the recommendation for the following vendors:

Whiteflash
Good Old Gold
James Allen
Wink Jones
Bill Pearlam
Mark at Engagement Rings Direct

These vendors sometimes have in-house ECs which they can send you pictures, Sarin reports and Idealscope pictures, or they can call in the stone and run the same tests which is more definitive in telling whether the ECs are top performers, so-so or duds.
 
Date: 11/8/2006 7:35:41 AM
Author: george12
Thanks a lot Lorelei !

I have emailed them and asked about an independent appraisal. I've also found this http://www.whiteflash.com/emerald/Emerald-cut-diamond-35821.htm which seems to be coming with a GIA report. What do you think ?

George
Click to expand...
Excellent choice. The numbers are very sweet with the Depth and Table around 63% and a medium girdle. I'm would prefer the symmetry and polish being at least VG or Ex but perhaps it might be all right. Since WF is selling this EC, have them pull up the stone and do a couple of things:

1. Take a real photograph to see the step/facet arrangement
2. Have a magnified picture to see where the inclusion is (but VS1 is probably fine)
3. Run a Sarin report for more detailed cut numbers
4. Take an idealscope picture to check the light performance

ETA
I just looked at the dimensions and noticed that this EC is very square at 1.12:1
It is almost shaped like an asscher with large sides. Is this an acceptable shape or would you prefer a more traditional elongated emerald cut shape?
 
Thanks Chrono!
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Great input from you!

George, for what I know about EC's the WF diamond looks as if it could be a winner! As Chrono suggests, ask them to do what is on Chrono's list and that way you can really see what this diamond is made of! Also the guys at WF have extremely experienced eyes with all diamonds and can advise you accordingly. Ditto Chrono the polish and symmetry, but it still could be a great pick, see what transpires. Just noticed your edit - good point too - George is that what you had in mind shapewise?
 

Hi Lorelei and Chrono,


thanks a lot for the advice !!


the whiteflash diamond seems the choice but after Chrono’s note, I realised that the shape might not be optimum. My girlfriend told a friend that she liked the emerald shape so I am assuming she meant the traditional elongated shape but I cannot ask her

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Would you guys have any suggestions on a more traditional shape diamond of similar cut colour clarity etc.


Thank you very much !


Best wishes,


George
 
We will have a look around and see what we can find, I am no expert with EC's but might be able to find you some examples to begin with. I guess it would be safer not to go for the WF diamond, as IMO if your GF wants an EC - a more elongated shape comes to mind more than the square emerald or Asscher type. However I will see what else WF may have and some of the others.

Here you go - just in budget if you pay by wire transfer and mention PS to Jon the vendor. As I said I am no expert with EC's and this one has a girdle of which is certainly not desirable in a round, but how crucial it is to an EC I don't know - Jon would be able to advise you more.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2084/
 
I was cutting and pasting like crazy then lost EVERYTHING
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So here they are:

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=11068087 Ratio 1.41:1

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=10368415 Ratio 1.38:1

The same EC offered by both vendors
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/diamonds/10602718
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=10602718 Ratio 1.38:1

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=10368416 Ratio 1.38:1

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=11061690 Ratio 1.18:1

The same EC offered by all three vendors
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/diamonds/10468268
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=10468268 Ratio 1.27:1
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=925591&aff_id=ps621

The same EC
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/diamonds/6849216
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=6849216 Ratio 1.33:1

The same EC again
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/diamonds/8588001
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=8588001 Ratio 1.39:1
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=575135&aff_id=ps621

That's what I've found in a quick search for all ECs under $5K with promising cut parameters. They are all GIA and EGL certs but you'll need to verify that they are EGL USA.

ETA: Ratio added
 
Date: 11/8/2006 9:12:17 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 11/8/2006 9:04:29 AM
Author: Lorelei
Oh Chrono....don''t you hate that???
emotion-39.gif


Here is my next offering anyway.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?cid=130&item=575135
Click to expand...
We linked the same stone.
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The one from GOG doesn''t fit in the cut chart with such an enormous table but the Idealscope picture looks quite good.
Click to expand...
Hee! It''s a sign!

The GOG one seems to have a few not so desirables about it, but it did look good in the pic despite that - also considering where it was from I wondered if it was worth a looksee...
 

Hi guys,


thank you ever so much ! They all look great ! I am guessing that you were both after the more traditional shape for emeralds. I was looking at the WF ones which I really liked but I could see the ratio stated anywhere. Are you working this out from the measurement? There is also some kind of rating of WF rating with stars. Some send by Chrono are 4 stars others are 2. Should I be aiming for the four stars rating like for example the http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=11068087?


It will take me a while to get through them – not as fast in this game I am afraid. But I want to thank you both sincerely for all you kind and invaluable help. I will let you know which one I would like to go for, for a final confirmation :)


Best wishes,


George
 
Clicking on the WF website star rating, this is what I read:

5 stars 'A Cut Above’ diamonds meet our standards for performance, craftsmanship and Visual Balance™ beyond ‘Ideal.’
4 stars Preferred diamonds combine best performance, craftsmanship and value for the money.
3 stars Near-Premium diamonds can perform at high levels for a lower price.
2 stars Often located with a supplier who has not provided enough information for a decisive judgment: Contact us.
1 star Often located with a supplier who has not provided enough information for a decisive judgment: Contact us.

ACA are rounds, so no worries. 4 stars are good and 2 stars just means that they do not have enough info at the moment for more comments. If you do decide on a 2 star EC, Whiteflash can get you more details from their supplier.

ETA
I've added ratios to the earlier list of ECs. I used the gemappraisers' shape advisor tool too: just plug in the 1st and 2nd numbers from the dimensions and viola, not only do you get the ratio but a picture of how squat or elongated the diamond is. Lorelei and I are posting at the same time again.
9.gif
 
You are most welcome George, Chrono and I are glad to help! If you look at the bottom of the diamond I linked from James Allen on the diamond info, you will see ratio 1.39 ( I think!) This is the length to width ratio which you can use to ascertain the basic shape of the diamond, for example 1 . 1 is a perfect square, 1.39 is more elongated.

The WF stars are their rating as to the cut quality of the diamond I have thought since they revamped their website, I will have to read to check. Also don't rush into your purchase, this process can take weeks or months, especially with fancy shapes, but use good vendors such as WF, JA and GOG and you won't go wrong!

ETA - great stuff Chrono!
ETAA - here you go George. This is a superb tool you can use to alter the length to width ratios and see which you like best.

http://www.gemappraisers.com/shapePickerNew.asp
 
Guys - what can I say ??? Thanks ever so much !
The tool is great !!

I think around 1.4:1 ratio or maybe a bit more is what I''d like to go for ! You were right, the first one I came across is just too square.

I emailed WF asking for some of the info Chrone suggested i.e.

1. a phote to see the step/facet arrangement
2. a Sarin report
3. an idealscope picture to check the light performance

and I am waiting for their reply.

I will let you know as soon as I hear from them. BTW, would the vendor, in this case WF, provide an independent appraisal as well ?

Best wishes,

George
 
George, it has been our pleasure to help you! People like you make our time here worthwhile! WF will provide you with an appraisal to the best of my knowledge, but it will be an appraisal made by them. They can certainly arrange for an independant appraisal for you, they can ship the diamond to an appraiser for you, then it can be sent onto you. I would ask them what would be the best thing for your situation, especially as this is an international transaction.
 
George,
It has been a pleasure to help you look for THE stone for your wife-to-be (I assume that's what it is for). I am very into emerald cuts and took this opportunity to jump in since there are so few posts about ECs.

Lorelei,
I just bought a diamond from WF this year and thought the appraisal came from an outside source?
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I'll have to pull out my paperwork and take a look. Maybe I'm just getting forgetful...

Ah, found it! Yup, I'm not quite senile yet. My appraisal is from Lastovica Jewelry Appraisal Services which is an independent outfit. However, it is more of a verification report. I think if someone needs a detailed one for insurance purposes, I think WF can get it done too. I think for ACAs and ES, it is included. Don't know if it will be extra or not for non in-house stones.
 
Indeed, this is for my "wife to be", hopefully :) , but you guys are making the process of finding the right ring so much easier. It has been a bit frustrating at times.

I cannot express enough my gratidute !

I will let you know as soon as WF comes back to me.

Best wishes,

George
 
Thanks for the info Chrono, I wasn''t sure on that point, thanks for the clarification! Keep us informed George, it shouldn''t be too long until WF gets back to you!
 

Hi Lorelei and Chrono,


WF got back, the diamond is available http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=11068087 and they have forwarded the GIA report to me, which I attach here. As you can see the inclusions are in the center of the diamond. Bob (from WF) told me whilst the inclusions are in the center of the diamond, it is a VS2 which means it is seriously eye-clean and they would not interfere with the "fire" or light performance of the diamond.

He expects me to give an answer to him as to whether he should bring the diamond in or not. In particular he said that:
If you are interested in having us bring a diamond in, all we need is a
credit card on file. We will provide a Sarin report, a diamond picture
at 40x magnification and an idealscope image indicating levels of light
leakage or absence thereof.

- If we bring the diamond in and it does not perform you will not owe us anything.


- If we bring it in and the numbers are good and you decide not to
purchase it, you will be charged $50 for shipping.
- If you decide to purchase the diamond you will only pay the price of
the diamond. A letter of verification from an independent appraiser is
complimentary.

What you guys think ?


Best wishes,


George
 

Attachments

Well, that is the cost of doing business online. Thankfully, you're still way ahead of the game compared to walking into a "maul" store. *shudder*

Maybe I missed something, but the stones in-house at GOG haven't been posted yet?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2084/ already posted above by Lorelei
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2306/ a little overbudget at 5240, but it has a certain look about it.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2083/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/1959/ no pics yet

the table sizes may seem alarmingly large, but it is a bug. click on the GIA report for the actual value.
 
Good catch Julie!
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Morning George! Sounds like you had a good response from WF. Bob is a great guy from all I have heard and has a very experienced eye, they all do at WF and you can safely let them guide you in my opinion. As I don't know much about the proportions of the EC, as I don't want to steer you wrong, I would see what Julie and Chrono think about the proportions of these contenders and which might be worth calling in. Having to pay something for a diamond to be called is usual, it depends on your budget as to how many you want to pay out on, so we really need to try to find the best of the bunch for you which I wouldn't be confident of doing. I really want you to get this right! The Sarin, IS etc can be very useful to help you decide.
 
Thanks guys !

I''ve asked for the diamond to be brought in and as soon as I have the picture, sarin report and the idealscope image I will post it back here and hopefully you can tell what you think about it.

Once again, thanks for all your help and your prompt replies !

Best wishes,

George
 
JulieN,
The ECs you posted from GOG are pretty too and I''m glad you caught the discrepency between the cert and the posted tables. I sure missed it!
6.gif
It looks more reasonable if that is the case. We do not know for sure unless George contacts Jon to verify the numbers. Otherwise, the Idealscope pictures looks red enough. However, those stones cost about $1000 more than the one George is looking for at WF. That''s a lot of money, even after the bank wire discount.

George,
You have picked a potentially very pretty EC. All we can do now is to sit tight until it arrives at WF for Bob to look at and run those tests. Their policy on shipping is reasonable and I''ve done it before. So if it is a killer stone that you end up buying, you don''t have to pay for the shipping. If it is a dud, WF''ll send it back for free. Not too bad a risk for doing business online.
 

Hi all,


I got some info back on the diamond I am interested in.


I attach the idealscope image and I am sending in subsequent replies the sarin report an a picture.


I would really appreciate any advice on it. There appears to be considerable asymmetry in the center and the cullet seems to be off center by 8.4% which seems to be high.


Please let me know what you think, as I need to reply to the vendor.


Thank you very much for help.


Best wishes,


George


IS_GIA15615214.jpg
 
the saring report...

My_SARIN_GIA15615214.gif
 
and the picture....

My_IS_GIA15615214.jpg
 
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