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Advice: My WF ACA diamond vs this Jewerler's GIA

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Lh2il0, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:24 PM.

  1. Lh2il0
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    by Lh2il0 » Feb 11, 2019 at 11:24 PM
    Hi all,

    We just received this WF ACA diamond tonight and were not really blown away with the light performance, but this may be due to our poor indoor lighting. We're definitely going to take this outside when its sunny again to see how it looks in natural light. All the idealscope/ASET images point to this stone being great in light.

    We did also visit a jeweler that had a really brilliant diamond that we liked but my concern is it only looks great due to his special lighting. Without the ability to see ideal scope/ASET images for this GIA stone, how do you think it's light performance is (our biggest concern is light performance)? How do you think it compares to the WF ACA? I ran the proportions through the HCA and it did pretty good (I forget the exact number for it was somewhere near 1).

    WF ACA diamond we bought: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970287.htm

    vs

    Jewelers GIA: 5236319370
    Cost: $8600
    Measurements : 7.17 - 7.20 x 4.27 mm
    Carat Weight: 1.34 carat
    Color Grade: I
    Clarity Grade: VS2
    Depth: 59.5 %
    Table: 59 %
    Crown Angle: 33.5°
    Crown Height: 13.5%
    Pavilion Angle: 40.8°
    Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
    Star Length: 50%
    Lower Half: 80%
    Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.0%
    Culet: None

    Thank you in advanced for your advice!!
     
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  2. thebrady28
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    by thebrady28 » Feb 11, 2019 at 11:45 PM
    I'm confused link shows a 1.242 H
    Your specs mention 1.34 I



     
  3. EncikG
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    by EncikG » Feb 11, 2019 at 11:50 PM
    Those are the 2 stones OP is comparing. The 1.24H WF aca vs the jeweller 1.34I

    Since u have the stone in hand, why dun u just bring it into the jeweller to compare
     
  4. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Feb 11, 2019 at 11:52 PM
    The jewelers stone is not even close to the ACA (based on numbers), and I'd be SHOCKED if it had an ASET/IS anywhere near as outstanding as the ACA. that said, *you* have to love the stone! It doesn't matter if you know you *should* love it but don't. I would take the ACA to the jeweler to compare to the two directly. Side by side, in the same light. My guess is that the ACA will blow it away, but of course that's not a guarantee!
     
  5. skypie
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    by skypie » Feb 12, 2019 at 12:49 AM
    It's the lighting. But the jeweler's stone is a 60/60 style which will have more white light return at the cost of less fire. View the stones under the same lighting and if you prefer the jeweler's stone then you probably like 60/60 styles more.
     
  6. tigertales
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    by tigertales » Feb 12, 2019 at 12:50 AM
    I'm sorry, but even the best numbers are no guarantee. Always trust your eyes.

    and, frankly, I'm not surprised by this.

    I agree with lovedogs, a side by side is the only way to check.

    I hate to say this, but on-line sales are a gold mine for jewelers who can sell a product by specs, for diamonds that don't really perform in real life, but look fantastic on paper. Trust me, if they were so amazing, they wouldn't have them sitting in a vault, they'd be out in the case where they'd be snatched up in a heartbeat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:15 AM
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  7. jp201845
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    by jp201845 » Feb 12, 2019 at 12:51 AM
    I agree with lovedogs, based on numbers and images the ACA stone is a much better stone for light performance and optical symmetry. What matters is what you like with " your eyes " that's what ultimately counts in my opinion.
     
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  8. Lh2il0
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    by Lh2il0 » Feb 12, 2019 at 1:03 AM
    Thanks all for the advice! This was very helpful! We just feel really awkward bringing in a diamond we bought from WF to compare to his diamonds. He's an one person shop and only does private showings. We feel like it would be rude. Do you think in general a private jeweler would take it personally, if we brought it in? I understand every jeweler is different, but I guess I'm trying to understand if this is acceptable and common practice.
     
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  9. tigertales
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    by tigertales » Feb 12, 2019 at 1:20 AM
    It didn't used to be common practice, but now, with internet sales competing with B and M stores, yes, it's acceptable. Don't worry about offending your jeweler. He can take it! LOL, and it may get you a fair price.
    Please share some pics of the comparison. I've GOT to see this, as I'm rooting for his stone to beat the ACA. I bet it will.
     
  10. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Feb 12, 2019 at 1:34 AM
    This isn't true at all. Online vendors like WF, CBI, Brian Gavin all have brick and mortar stores AND sell online. To say they sell based on numbers and don't perform in real life is factually untrue. Obviously that doesn't mean that everyone wntsw or prefers "super ideal" proportions. Everyone's eyes and preferences are different. But if they weren't top notch, they wouldn't have such thriving buisinesses. Besides, @Wink has been selling in person for decades, and those years of experience are why he exclusively sells CBI now. To pretend that they only look great by the numbers is just false.
     
  11. tigertales
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    by tigertales » Feb 12, 2019 at 1:38 AM
    I think your defense of the reputable jewelers on this site is admirable. I was not referring to all of them.
    There are two or three popular and well known vendors that are on-line only. That was more my point.
     
  12. kipari
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    by kipari » Feb 12, 2019 at 2:36 AM
    If you really want to compare the diamonds, be sure to CLEAN the one you are bringing in. Jewelers make sure theirs are in the right angles and clean. Diamonds attract oils, so even a fingerprint alters performance drastically. If you think yours is dirtier already, pick up the contender with your finger to even out the difference.
    And yes, I've read it so often here:lighting lighting lighting.

    :doh:
    I don't think ACAs are duds in person and are cut to look good on paper. And I am pretty positive super ideals don't look good in real life, just on paper and therefore are sold only online. jewelers get their stone from the same sources than the online retailers. Only you cannot filter the specs yourself and compare.... Again:think:
    But as someone else stated: maybe you,, I op, prefer a 60/60 stone. I'd compare. If the jeweler is honest, he'll let you compare. Be prepared, though, that he wants you to buy His stone. So likely will try to talk the aca down etc. In order to make a sale
     
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  13. aneesh120
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    by aneesh120 » Feb 12, 2019 at 2:42 AM
    A side by side comparison by the OP would be interesting.
    i really want to know are these super ideal cut diamonds just marketing to demand top dollar for a diamond.
    Many such scams exist in various business i wonder if that is the case here too.
     
  14. jp201845
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    by jp201845 » Feb 12, 2019 at 3:15 AM
    SuperIdeal diamonds are more expensive for a reason. There are many consumers on this site that are extremely happy with their purchase. I would recommend using the search feature to find posts of consumers that have experience with SuperIdeal purchases before throwing out assumptions. Would you rather drive a Ferrari or a Volkswagen?
     
  15. kmoro
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    by kmoro » Feb 12, 2019 at 3:47 AM
    Yes but science (physics) is science. When certain angles work better together, that is supported by science. If you do a search, you will find many videos that will show you.

    Here’s one of them

    JA True Hearts is not based on light performance unless the diamond in question is graded by AGS. The True Heart line is not a super ideal line, although a consumer could get lucky.

    The H&A effects of the modern brilliant cut is a coincidence that plays well into marketing. It just so happens that the more precise this patterning is, the more precise the cut. At some point, someone realized that the shapes resemble hearts and arrows and the marketing label of H&A was born; however, it really is a good indicator of cut quality.’’

    If you have some time, there is a ton of information on the forums and videos on the internet.
     
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  16. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Feb 12, 2019 at 3:48 AM
    That's the reason why this stone ain't sitting in Wink's vault. And, yes I bought the stone sight unseen. :praise:

    My Q is ....have you ever seen a top ideal cut H&A stone? :tongue:

    2.35b.jpg 2.35k.jpeg
     
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  17. aneesh120
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    by aneesh120 » Feb 12, 2019 at 3:50 AM
    Yes i have done a lot of research in the forum and i have seen a lot of people are happy with their super ideals but who is to say they are just not brainwashed by marketing

    Also i have seen side by side comparison videos between a super ideal cut and non super ideal cut with near similar certificates in a firescope and in various lighting conditions but what if the diamond they are comparing their super ideal cut to is the worst performing diamond of the lot.

    What if there are many non super ideals that perform just the same but they don't show us that on camera because the performance difference would be negligible hence it would not justify the extra premium.

    Afterall the marketing campaigns by de beers was what made diamonds an important part of everyone's life.

    I am just a noob so pardon me if i said something wrong but every industry has its own secrets.
     
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  18. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Feb 12, 2019 at 5:32 AM
    It is often discussed on here whether a SuperIdeal is distinguishable from a not-SuperIdeal-but-very-similar-numbers GIA XXX.

    Some people have said Yes.

    Some people have said No.

    Those people who have commented have seen both in real life.

    Unless one has seen a SuperIdeal in person and side-by-side with a GIA XXX that has angles/measurements that actually work properly, one cannot comment with authority, only speculate and infer.

    The benefit of shopping with Pricescope-recommended SuperIdeal vendors is that you can visit them in person if you are able to, or you can purchase a diamond from them knowing you can return for a full, no-hassle refund - and in both situations you can have the SuperIdeal in front of you and undertake side-by-side comparisons with GIA XXX or the stone of your choice.

    Bricks and mortar vendors/jewellers who disparage online vendors are only doing so because they do not understand the benefits of optimised cuts, and because they are trying to protect their own profit margins.

    In my book, a good product will sell itself without the need to disparage competitors' products.
     
  19. kmoro
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    by kmoro » Feb 12, 2019 at 6:43 AM
    They know they haven’t been brainwashed because the light performance can be objectively tested and you can often easily see the difference. I can with my diamonds.

    There absolutely are non-super ideals that perform as well as a super ideals, but it is because the angles work together by fluke - and it’s very difficult to find them. My opinion is that, when a person is online shopping, the whole branded super-ideal is a way to guarantee getting a diamond with ideal light performance. For some people, it is worth buying into the super-ideal concept simply because they have decided to buy a diamond that they can’t see first and that they don’t want to have to return. Branded super-ideals have been tested - there is no “worst of the lot” - that’s the whole point. If you were looking at a branded super-ideal diamond that was the “worst of the lot,” I’d be really interested in who called it a super-ideal in the first place as it would be highly unlikely that it was. Can you tell us more about this badly performaing super-ideal?

    An Idealscope and an ASET scope are not just cameras. and of course some differences will be too small to notice. Sarin reports and computer generated ASET images are also informative and accurate.

    Diamonds were highly prized long before DeBeers. DeBeers was genius in making diamonds a regular household item and controlling inventory and inflating prices. If there’s an industry secret, this is it.

    Super-ideals are real, lol. Whether or not they are worth the premium is the choice of the consumer. If you don’t think they’re worth it, don’t buy one. I don’t think that you’re going to blow the lid off of any industry secrets :wink2:
     
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  20. ceg
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    by ceg » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:10 AM
    I don't think the question should be "are super ideals a gimmick?" They aren't, they are proven performers if you want THAT KIND of performance. Your question should be, "do I prefer a 60-60 stone?". You are in a fortunate situation that you can compare the stones IRL. Just be sure to check in as many types of lighting that you can. The 60-60 stone should be bright with less fire. If that's your preference then go with it! Most people on ps prefer a stone with balance of fire and brilliance that comes with super ideal cutting.

    Good luck!
     
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  21. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:10 AM
    I think aneesh was suggesting that SuperIdeal vendors could be comparing a SuperIdeal with, say, an SI3 37crown/43pavilion lump of frozen spit, rather than a stone with near-superideal measurements!

    Something like these, perhaps... lol

    https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11669209

    https://diamonddealfinder.com/enquiry.php?id_field=485907

    I want to see a pic of the second one! :lol:
     
  22. aneesh120
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    by aneesh120 » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:11 AM
    You clearly did not get what i was talking about.

    I was talking about the various videos that are put up on the internet that compares the light performance of a super ideal vs a non super ideal.

    What i meant to say was they are using their "worst of the lot" performing diamond to compare with their "super ideal" to make the differences more noticeable and hence charge a premium for it.

    There are probably many non super ideal diamonds with almost similar performance out there just like in the OP's case and not such a noticeable performance difference.
     
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  23. AV_
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    by AV_ » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:19 AM
    I would die of curiosity :(( before any shame! ;))

    If the other diamond has great symmetry, I am not sure what I'd chose today. The perfect finish of H&A thrills me, but I am more open minded on proportions...
     
  24. Jimmianne
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    by Jimmianne » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:20 AM
    I agree with kipari that you should super-clean the diamond. Hot water, dawn, no diamond cleaning products, which I feel can leave a slight film in comparison. I have gotten many new diamonds that were not pristinely clean coming from the vendor’s.
     
  25. MissGotRocks
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    by MissGotRocks » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:27 AM
    There are countless people on this forum that have bought super ideal cut diamonds. To say they have just been brainwashed is nonsense. I think you would need to see some in real life before you make the statement that it is all about brainwashing and industry secrets. There is plenty here on PS to read in terms of the cutting of super ideal cut stones and why their price comes with a premium. I've had both and the difference is definitely real. Worth it to you? That would be your call based on what you like.

    The videos for comparison will tell you the specs of a non-ideal cut stone that is compared to a super ideal cut stone. This is not all smoke and mirrors and until you have been able to see them in person for yourself, you are simply speculating.
     
  26. aneesh120
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    by aneesh120 » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:39 AM
    @MissGotRocks
    You are right i am just speculating i have come here to learn and have a curious mind which is asking a lot a questions.
    Maybe you are right that i need to look at both super ideal and non super ideal physically to see the difference.
    BUT the point is just comparing one super ideal and one non super ideal wont cut it there are maybe 100's of different combinations in proportions every case needs to be compared sure many experts here have their own recommendations in proportions that they have made with years of experience and i respect them.

    But there could be some proportions that may look better than a super ideal like the 60/60 people talk about here in pricescope forum which is much more brighter.

    Or there maybe some proportions with not so noticeable kind of difference to the eye
    just like how many people cannot notice the difference between a D and E color diamond with the naked eye.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 7:48 AM
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  27. Kaycee2018
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    by Kaycee2018 » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:40 AM
    I just want to chime in and say that I am with @aneesh120 in that I would love to see more comparisons of Super Ideals vs. non-Super Ideals with near super ideal specs. Most of the comparisons I've found that actually reveal the diamond specs (most don't) show Super Ideals vs. GIA diamonds with specs at the very low end of ExExEx rather than diamonds with near super ideal specs. My e-ring is a GIA ExExEx with near super ideal specs and I cannot see much if any discernible difference between it and a Super Ideal. And if the differences are so minimal that they can only be detected in scope images, it is not worth the 20-25% premium for a Super Ideal for me personally. I would not go so far as to imply that Super Ideals are a "scam" and that there is no difference, I am just saying I cannot detect it IRL and so the premium is not worth it to me. I've also had two very reputable local jewelers (one both AGS and GIA credentialed) praise my diamond without prompting. However, truth be told, even with comparison videos and scopes, the real test is with ones own eyes. People have different tolerance levels and different preferences in performance.
     
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  28. ceg
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    by ceg » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:53 AM
    Most of the video comparisons are not crappy stones versus super ideal cur stones. Quite a few I have seen are are comparisons of well cut gia xxx, ags 000, and super ideal. I am sure someone can link them as they are often posted here. I will search for it and post them later this morning if no one else does. Again though, OP is going to be comparing a 60-60 with a super ideal so not exactly the same as the videos.

    Also I owned a well but gia xxx and compared it in person to a super ideal cut. I could not readily see the difference with a single viewing. After I bought super ideal studs and had a chance to compare my gia xxx ering to my studs, I could easily see a difference. I then upgraded my ering to super ideal and it was worth the premium!
     
  29. the_mother_thing
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    by the_mother_thing » Feb 12, 2019 at 7:59 AM
    In most things in life, the term ‘better’ is subjective. ‘Better’ is a quantifiable difference between two or more things. For diamonds, that may be price, carat, clarity, cut, or color. But ‘better’ for me is not ‘better’ for someone else; only the person writing the check and/or seeking enjoyment in the item can define what ‘better’ means to them. And the only way to do that is to look at as many options you can to define what ‘better’ means to you.
     
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  30. purplesilk
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    by purplesilk » Feb 12, 2019 at 8:11 AM
    Based on the numbers I'd buy the local jeweller diamond because I'm a 60/60 gal; I've seen different diamonds side by side and I found that I prefer the 60/60 type because:
    • I favour brightness over fire
    • a 59% table will make the stone appear bigger than a 55% table.
    Best to you,
    purplesilk
    :wavey:
     
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