A tragic story

[Upgradable]

Date: 10/26/2008 12:25:27 PM
Author: Haven

I don''t think it''s a bad thing to be inflexible about things that are of serious importance (and thus too important to compromise) to you. When people over-compromise on certain things they risk compromising themselves. Become too flexible, and you become someone else. You, and only you, can determine what is most important to you, and what you are willing and not willing to compromise on. You are not willing to compromise on religion, and my guess is that if you did, you would end up resentful and unhappy. This time around you learned this the hard way, and I''m sure that you will take this experience and use it to figure out what you need from a potential partner from the very beginning. Will it be painful for a while? Yes. But this is what we mean when we say experience is the best teacher.

HOLY MOLY!!! (pun intended)

Thanks to Mimzy, Michaelrules, and Haven for their thoughtful responses!

I think many people have mistaken FAITH for RELIGION in this discussion. I use the term faith in the same vein others have used the term spirituality earlier. I am a Christian protestant, but I totally understand where Smooley is coming from. I believe those that who don''t "get it" weren''t raised, or haven''t found a strong faith in their life. Being a member or a certain religion and being a person of strong faith are quite different things. I''ve been trying for a couple of days to come up with an appropriate metaphor which is not insulting to one party or another, and the best I can come up with is sports (so apologies in advance to anyone who feels this diminishes the issue).

Many people follow sports. There are those who root for their local teams, those who watch the news through the daily sports report, those who wouldn''t know a baseball from a basketball. Then there are those dedicated to a specific team to a degree that an outsider would have no understanding of. These fans are fans no matter the W/L record, the starting pitcher, the current management, through thick and thin. However they know the box scores, stats of the team for the last 20 years, and don''t even try to talk them around to following another team. As a life-long Cubs fan hopefully you can see where I am coming from.

I am sorry, Smooleys, that you are suffering, but first and foremost I want to congratulate you for knowing your own mind and heart well enough to know what is important for you. You seem secure enough to not be affected by those saying you are at fault for not being willing to compromise. Again, I admire your maturity, and hope your heart heals from this disappointment.

 

[Haven]

Upgradeable--Cubs fan, eh? I''m a Chicagoan, too!

I think you make a good point that there is a difference between faith and religion, I agree.

What is it about my post that made you make the shocked face?

 

[Upgradable]

It wasn''t until after I posted and reread it that I realized it looked like I was

ing you. My quote was in appreciation for what you posted. The "eek" was a general reaction to the thread. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Haven]

Thanks for clarifying. I was just curious because I thought your post agreed with mine, but I didn''t understand the emotie.

 

[smooleys]

Thanks Haven and Upgradable for your support.

 

[partgypsy]

Smooleys, I am sorry for you. I understand why it didn''t work out. Dad and uncle are Greek (and of course Greek Orthodox). My uncle dated and fell in love with a American woman (a nurse) I believe. However she really didn''t want to convert, be a stay at home mom, etc all his expectations he had about a wife and she broke up with him. He was heartbroken about it. He ended up going to a matchmaker and decided to marry a woman of the same faith he only met 2 times! Say what you will; they are still married today.
My father married my mom, who was Methodist. But she converted when she got married because though she is more church going than my Dad, she also didn''t see the sense of raising children with 2 religons (it''s confusing enough as it is!). However even I who am not religous (which again is different than being spiritual) I can understand how hard it would be for someone raised Christian not to have her children baptized. Even if just superstitious, it is the time when a child is written in the book of the Lord and blessed. Is there any way for you to overlook it as a "superstition" and allow her to do this thing?

 

[gwendolyn]

This is an honest question, by which I mean no disrespect or anything, but is it not possible for your children to be raised both at the same time? You guide them through the Jewish traditions, your wife through the Christian (Catholic?), and let the children decide which fits them best? Or let them live their lives in a hybrid of the two, taking the best of both religions? As was stated earlier, it is ultimately their decision anyway. Is there really no way to live together?

My boyfriend and I believe very different things but, should we have children, plan on sharing our thoughts with them, answering their questions, and allowing them to make up their own minds and hearts about it.

 

[Amanda.Rx]

Awwww... how devastating! I''m so sorry to hear this happened.

 

[ckrickett]

Date: 11/13/2008 2:50:20 PM
Author: gwendolyn
This is an honest question, by which I mean no disrespect or anything, but is it not possible for your children to be raised both at the same time? You guide them through the Jewish traditions, your wife through the Christian (Catholic?), and let the children decide which fits them best? Or let them live their lives in a hybrid of the two, taking the best of both religions? As was stated earlier, it is ultimately their decision anyway. Is there really no way to live together?

My boyfriend and I believe very different things but, should we have children, plan on sharing our thoughts with them, answering their questions, and allowing them to make up their own minds and hearts about it.

I agree with that 100%.

I''m a christian and my SO is a diehard athiest. We had a talk about kids. We both decided to let the learn about christianity and tell them it''s ok not to believe what mom believes because it is their decision (and a big one) in their lives. I''m alittle sad that I can''t share my upbringing with them completely when the time comes, but I love my SO and he loves me and this is a comprimise we both made. Plus like everyone has been saying it is THEIR decision, no matter what the outcome you would love your child no matter their religion, I know I would... (I truly believe you would.). Religion is a big thing a big important thing and both parents HAVE A RIGHT to raise their children in their own religion. You seem like your ready to give up a happy life with the woman you love because you can''t find a compromise to this situation. That must be heartbreaking to you because religion is super important and trust me you have my respect for that. But if you cannot imagine being with another woman for the rest of your life maybe you should rethink some of those thoughts you have on raising your children completely jewish.

Sorry if any of this feels jumbled.

 

[golden]

I know everyone has their opinions, so this is just mine.....
My grandfather was disowned when he married my grandmother (he was Jewish and she was Catholic), I don't know how religeous either of them were, but they were so in love, nothing stood in their way; they had a wonderful life together.
To me- if this girl was "the one" and meant everything to you, you would not let religion stand in the way, BUT if I were in your shoes, I would also think the same goes for her...she should be open to change as well if she wanted to spend the rest of her life with you, but like you said, she is willing to compromise and you are the one who is not, so to me...this is not devastatiing FOR YOU, it is devastating FOR HER as she is willing to make changes and work on things, but you will not. I always like to look at things from both sides and I just think that if you were truely in love with this girl, you would compromise.

 

[cooperchien]

I suppose it is a sign. This could be a final test for your relationship or an act of God to tell you something.
You bought a great ring with good effort which also means great love.
I was wondering if you would let her know that if you want to give this relationship one more try. As a diamond lover myself, I feel bad that a beatiful diamond loses its chance to shine.
I have friends who are Jewish married to non-Jewish. At the end, they respect what their children want when their children become 14. Trust me, a child will have his or her own mind. It is not up to the parents to force any belief onto the children.
At this point, you should have faith that no matter what she wants, your children will always become the best children for you.
Look at the beautiful diamond ring one more time, it deserves one more chance from you.

 

[vespergirl]

Smooleys, I''m so sorry to hear about this situation. it''s very sad. I grew up on Long Island, NY, in a mostly Jewish area, though I was raised Roman Catholic. In my community, there were many couples of mixed faiths who married, and the kids got to celebrate both sets of holidays. Is there any way that you guys could reach a compromise, like, the kids don''t get baptized, but you can still have an Xmas tree in your house? (There were actually a lot of Jewish families in my neighborhood who put up a "Hannukah Bush" so their kids could get a tree, which is actually a pagan symbol of winter holidays in origin, not Christian, but I digress).

I do understand your viewpoint, though, and even though I am not a religious person, I have a great deal of respect for people who are, and I definitely see it as a dealbreaker if it matters to you and a compromise can''t be reached. I just want to offer my sympathies, and I hope that you can find some peace at this difficult time.

 

[vespergirl]

Just one more thing I wanted to add - are you sure that your ex is totally against converting? I think Judaism is a beautiful religion, and if I were in love with a Jewish guy, I would have definitely considered converting. I actually really like the Jewish approach to childrearing as well (there''s a great book on raising Jewish children called "The Blessings of a Broken Arm" or something like that). Maybe if she''s exposed to the religion and ceremonies more?

Either way, I do agree that you should not compromise your position on something that''s this important to you. Goodness knows that many of my Jewish girlfriends in NY would love to meet an observant guy like you. If this relationship can''t work out, I''m sure you''ll meet someone else who will have the same commitment to your faith.

 

[smiles]

Smooleys I truly feel for you and I wish you all the best. Gwen no one really adressed your question - so I wanted to try. I think that you can definately raise children with traditions from two different faiths and allow them to choose how they wish or do not wish to incorporate those into their lives when they get older. However, what I believe the point of the OP is, is that Judaism (and I believe many other religions though in their own ways) is really a way of life. It influences your day to day routine as opposed to just being present in one''s life like during a holiday for a few days and then dissapearing for a few days. Like Islam for example it influences your food choices, the way you keep your home, the way you spend parts of your weekend etc... I hope this makes sense.

I agree with Haven, Mimzy and all the others (I can''t remember names right now) who explained that love isn''t always enough and to some religion is an integral part of life. While technically a baptism doesn''t seem like such a big deal because it''s just a one time thing and then after that they can just be raised jewish, in Judaism at least, it doesn''t really work like that... I really hope this doesn''t give anyone a bad impression of the religion...

Smooleys I totally know where you are coming from this and it sucks a lot.... I know it is hard for some to understand but Smooleys I really am impressed that you know who you are and what will work for you in your life and while for some people a compromise can work it really depends on the people, their beliefs, how they were raised etc... and I don''t believe for one second that this has anything to do with your love for one another....

 

[smooleys]

I figured I would update everyone on my situation since this seems to be a popular thread that has generated good conversation in my opinion. Some of you still seem to be misinterpreting the situation however. Rather than rehash my point of view again, I''ll just lay out where we are as of today. We actually saw each other yesterday for the first time in a few weeks. We have been keeping in contact with each other throughout which has made it easier and harder if that makes sense. While we both miss each other like crazy and it kills the both of us that we are not together, neither of us has changed our positions...actually she has hardened hers. Holidays and traditions are not the issue here. She wants to raise Catholic children, I want to raise Jewish children. Meaning, she wants all the religious ceremonies (baptism, communion, Sunday school etc.) and I want the bris, bar mitzvah, hebrew school, etc. It just can''t work doing both and I personally don''t want to not do anything and let kids "choose" when they are 14 or at another age. I want my children to have religious training when they are young and when they are adults they can do whatever they like. But, at least I know I did my part like my parents did for me. Otherwise, how will they learn enough to be able to choose? Not from us I can tell you. Anyway, I am taking day by day...it''s obviously very hard, hard for the both of us.

 

[miraclesrule]

smooleys,

I''m sorry that it is not working out as you move forward. Although I have made my position on "religion" clear in an earlier post, I think it ultimately boils down to whether or not you can live with someone and that you are both looking forward together in the same direction. Love is not always enough. I''ve loved many people that I could never live with...for many different reasons, only one of which was quasi-religious. Although I personally embrace a non-denominational spiritual faith, I can appreciate those who embrace a specific faith. I hope that both of you can disengage with little anomosity and that you can release each other to the universe with love and the best of wishes for each other''s future.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 12/14/2008 7:48:30 PM
Author: smooleys
I figured I would update everyone on my situation since this seems to be a popular thread that has generated good conversation in my opinion. Some of you still seem to be misinterpreting the situation however. Rather than rehash my point of view again, I''ll just lay out where we are as of today. We actually saw each other yesterday for the first time in a few weeks. We have been keeping in contact with each other throughout which has made it easier and harder if that makes sense. While we both miss each other like crazy and it kills the both of us that we are not together, neither of us has changed our positions...actually she has hardened hers. Holidays and traditions are not the issue here. She wants to raise Catholic children, I want to raise Jewish children. Meaning, she wants all the religious ceremonies (baptism, communion, Sunday school etc.) and I want the bris, bar mitzvah, hebrew school, etc. It just can''t work doing both and I personally don''t want to not do anything and let kids ''choose'' when they are 14 or at another age. I want my children to have religious training when they are young and when they are adults they can do whatever they like. But, at least I know I did my part like my parents did for me. Otherwise, how will they learn enough to be able to choose? Not from us I can tell you. Anyway, I am taking day by day...it''s obviously very hard, hard for the both of us.

Hi smooleys, it sounds to me like you definitely made the right decision by not proposing. I think it''s important for both parents to be on board with raising their children the same way, and I think that for religious people, religious upbringing is a dealbreaker. It''s true that children can''t be both Jewish & Christian at the same time, and I still think it''s awful that it worked out this way for you guys after so many years together.

Still, it''s probably better that this was discovered now, before you became engaged, than down the line, when it would escalate to fighting over the children. I just want to wish you luck in the future - I know that you will meet someone who shares your same religion and values.

 

[DebShine]

Wow - memories. Smooley - I am Catholic, my first husband was a Jehovah''s witness. We tried and it didn''t work. Once you are married and truly thinking about a family, your opinions and ideals and intrinsic training will surface even more. Personally, I think you all are doing the right thing since neither seems to be able to give up your practices with any peace of mind. We did not have children and got divorced after a year. I have two beautiful children now (12 and 14) and I have to tell you - the thought of not being able to share Christmas, bible stories, and other religious beliefs with them is sad because it is such a part of our lives. We lector and serve together in the church and I LOVE and appreciate seeing them with me on the alter. Children become a part of you and though other families can do it (which is GREAT) I wouldn''t have been able to. Lost love is tragic. I''m sorry you are going through this. It will get better though. Keep praying - I do believe in miracles and answers to prayers. Though sometimes the "no" answers hurt terribly, there is a reason for them. Best wishes. Debby.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 10/18/2008 5:24:34 PM
Author: smooleys
Maybe I wasn't clear. I'll try again. For the four years that we were dating, she told me she didn't really care about her religion and was fine with raising Jewish children. The way she explained it to me now was that she recently was having second thoughts about that and realized religion was important to her. She didn't tell me she was thinking like this, otherwise of course I wouldn't go out and buy a ring! It came out during a little tiff that was unrelated 24 hours before the proposal. So, it comes down to the fact that we both feel our religions are important to us, and they are somewhat incompatible with each other. In other words, the children would have to be one or the other. Since she is the mother, and thus not Jewish, the kids would have to be converted at birth or shortly thereafter. That was the plan. And,
religion is important enough that one shouldn't have to 'give it up' to be with one they love.

And yet, you're asking her to do just that. Do you see how self-centered and unreasonable this sounds?

My father is Jewish. My mother is not. It's not the end of the world.

Best wishes to both of you, but frankly, I think you're the one who's in the wrong in this situation for feeling entitled to this approach. If having your way is more important than being with her, this end to your relationship is the logical conclusion. Sorry.

And before I'm attacked for not being automatically sympathetic, I mean you no harm at all. I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't give you my honest opinion. Hopefully, you've received some good advice here and can work on communication in your relationship with this woman or in your next relationship.

 

[richdor]

Hello all! This is my very first post after lurking and enjoying your gorgeous rings and such. I don''t know why I was compelled to join today but this post really tugged at my heart. I don''t know what to say to ease your pain but if this scenario were present in my life, YOU would be the most important and I would do anything to make you happy. I hope your difficulties work themselves out. Religion actually causes more problems than it helps sometimes. Look at all the dissent in the world today and most of it stems from religious beliefs. It was better for you to find out now than later when there may have kids involved. Take heart, you will find the right one.

 

[DebShine]

I was just hoping for an update. How are things going?

 

[jfus]

smooleys I am so sorry to hear of your situation. I Don''t think you were being selfish or excepting too much I think this is just who you are and she was really hiding who she was for the past 4 years. Obviously if this was to continue you''d BOTH be sacrificing who you are to be in the relationship. As sad as it is.. it''s not meant to be.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago.. Engaged to someone for 6 months.. planning the wedding..issues were not so much about religion but just different thoughts about life. A lot of things came out over this time and I Realized I was sacrificing who I was to be with this person and all I was thinking about were our "issues" it wasn''t fun anymore.

So after a few weeks of debating what to do after being with this person for over 3+ years someone said something to me.. he told me when he met his wife it was "EASY" not easy in the sense they had no issues, but everything just WORKED. Obviously this religion thing was an underlying issue for you from day 1... that''s a big deal when it means so much to do... So it wasn''t going to be EASY for you.

Get yourself on jdate. It''s fantastic site. I have heard many horror stories as well... but guess what? A month after I called off my other engagement I signed up on there.. two weeks later I met my b''shert... my now husband (oddly enough we had crossed paths a million times before I found him onine)

Everything happens for a reason

Hang in there

 

[voice not noise]

I spent the last 30 minutes or so reading (almost) every word of this thread and decided this would be the place for my first post.

I'm not coming from a religious, faith, couple, or even family's point of view. I'm coming from a psychological point of view, and I think everyone is missing the point here.

I don't see this thread starting out intending to be a discussion between couple and family, religion and faith or even parents and children.

The only thing I really saw is "we broke up, and its all her fault", just a couple of quotes as follows;

Date: 10/24/2008 7:38:20 PM
Author: smooleys
"The point is, is that like your relationship, we have discussed this issue many times over the years and she had said she was fine with it, but now changed her mind and doesn't seem to want what I want (raising Jewish children). Now, I am supposed to change my mind?"

"If your read the thread (my story) from the beginning you will remind yourself that this happened because she changed her mind/feelings at the last minute."

I have this feeling this is going to be my last post as well.

 

[DebShine]

That is a good point, Voice... however, Smooley''s got to do what Smooley''s got to do... it''s just a bad situation that happens... hence... tragic

And just to be a pain in the butt.... Smooley, you do know it is NOT her fault right? She''s got to do what she''s got to do also.

 

[White Orchid]

I''m so sorry for you, this must be devastating. I wonder why Catholicism is so important to her all of a sudden - did she recently lose someone close to her? My heart goes out to you.

 

[DebShine]

I don''t think Smooleys is coming back.

 

[partgypsy]

I guess the thing is you can''t have it all. This very much reminds me of my uncle yet again who was attracted to and fell in love with the qualities of a "liberated" woman beautiful, smart, down to earth who wanted to work after marriage. But at the same time he wanted her to be a stay at home traditional wife. Needless to say she broke up with him. He was heartbroken, then decided to get married to someone he had met only 2 times through a matchmaker. But he got what he wanted, a traditional dutiful wife, and it was probably helpful she came from another country and didn''t have all these romantic conceptions of a marriage.

It is clear Smooleys knows what he wants; it''s not just about religion it''s about what kind of roles each would play in the marriage and they are not agreeing on that. Although I originally argued for compromise I don''t see that happening and so think it is to both of their benefit they do not stay together.
I''m sure Smooleys can find the kind of wife he is looking for.