A tragic story

[smooleys]

I was all ready to post a bunch of pics of the beautiful MWM ring I bought for the person I was hoping to spend the rest of my life with, but less than 24 hours before I was planning on proposing began the end of our relationship. I feel the need to vent to the people who helped me for months understand and pick out the perfect ring.

I suppose the seed was planted four years ago when we met and started dating. We are of different religions and from day one, I told her that one of the most important things in life for me was to raise a family (children) the way I was raised. Amazingly, she wasn''t religious and told me that she was okay with that. "As long as the kids are raised with good morals, ethics and something good to believe in." That was the line I was told time and time again, and as our relationship grew and we fell in love with each other, I believed every word of it.

We had pictured growing old together, sharing life''s'' special moments and raising a family together. The four years weren''t easy because I was in law school and we lived 100 miles apart. But, we persevered...so I thought.

Hours before the proposal, we got into a fight, during which she told me she was having second thoughts about raising children "my way." Shocked, I immediately ran over and as we were talking amidst our tears, it became apparent there was this immovable rock standing between us and our lives together. I can''t be mad that she feels this way, I just wish she knew and thought about this a long time ago so we wouldn''t have gotten ourselves in this position. We took the next week to try and work things out. She wanted me to compromise, but I told her you can''t compromise when it comes to religion. I firmly believe that children should be raised with one religion, especially since the two have opposite teachings/viewpoints, etc. We both agreed to end the relationship a few days ago, since we couldn''t overcome this issue. I know it''s "possible" to have a family with parents of different backgrounds, but usually one of the parents is lax and doesn''t care about his religion and the kids are raised with the other parent''s religion. When both spouses care and the religions are different, it presents a huge obstacle that I can''t see a compromise to.

That doesn''t mean we can''t share in both holidays and family events, but only that the kids can''t participate in her religion''s practices and ceremonies. For example, she wanted to have the kids baptized whereas I want to raise them Jewish. I don''t see how you can do that and have it mean something. It''s true that she would have to give that up (and it''s not a little thing), but she knew that from the beginning. All of a sudden, I''m supposed to give that up?

I guess I''m just devastated because it''s not a matter of love or our feelings for each other. We both love and want to spend our lives together. However, it just doesn''t seem possible if we both want to raise our kids with different religions. It''s a terrible situation when two people truly love each other, but now won''t be together. Thanks for listening.

 

[blondebunny]

what is it that she really wants?? Just to have the kids baptized and participate in both holidays and family events?? Im sorry but to me that seems like a simple sacrifice (but im not Jewish so i dont know rules or anything of that nature) to let the kids be baptized and participate in both holidays and family events... My BF''s cousin is jewish (dad was jewish and mom converted-my Bf''s moms twin) and he participates in all of our family festivities around holidays and what not, and we somtimes participate in their festivities. I find it makes your a more diverse person knowing about both and Im sorry but I dont see anything wrong with it at all (nobody bash me here.. its just my opinion)

I think that if you love her the way you say you do, then you should be able to compromise somethings about raising your children to keep her in your life...

Also, did you tell her you were planning on proposing to her? It just seems weird that all of a sudden after four years she just suddenly "changed" her mind on how she wants to raise her children... Maybe her parents have said something?? I think some parts of the story may be missing here...

 

[smooleys]

I too wonder if parts of this story are missing. Celebrating holidays is not the problem. Of course we can and will celebrate both spouses holidays. The problem lies in religious ceremonies. How do you have a Catholic religious ceremony (baptism) when the kids are supposed to be raised Jewish and perhaps if a boy, have a bris? A) that doesn''t make sense since the kids won''t be raised Catholic and B)that''s a conflict of interest in religions. Religiously, the kids have to be one or the other.

 

[iluvcarats]

Smooleys, I am sorry for what you are going through now. That is a bummer!

But maybe it just wasn''t meant to be. Maybe this was a blessing in disguise. I am sure there is a woman out there who shares your dedication to Judaism who is waiting for you to find her and raise a family together. Maybe your true soul mate is still out there. I am Jewish, (but not too religious) and I do believe that everything happens for a reason. She may not have been your destiny. Don''t despair! It will get better. Mrs. right is out there. I am so sorry that you are going through this hard time in your life. Best wishes that it gets better soon!

 

[LeggoMyEggo]

Did you ask her what it is about baptism, specifically, that makes it so important to her?

As an open-minded Christian, I could totally let my children participate in Jewish holidays and traditions, and learn about God''s history of salvation of the world out of love, and make a choice as an adult about whether/how Jesus fits into that. I would, of course, share with them my beliefs along the way, but in a way that is also respectful of my husband''s beliefs. But I also believe that something significant happens through baptism (marking and sealing as belonging to God and to Christ, and grace to grow in relationship with God throughout life), and I couldn''t in good conscience deny my child that gift. I could be pretty easy-going about most things, but at the very least they would HAVE to be baptized. My guess is this is why she feels this way, too.

A more mainline Protestant Christian denomination (Lutheran, Episcopalian, or maybe Methodist or Presbyterian) might be open to doing a baptism with the understanding that your girlfriend would share her faith with her children along the way, in addition to their Jewish upbringing. I''m pretty sure my own pastor would do it. In fact, Lutherans and Episcopalians will do private baptisms if there''s a good cause, and I think your interfaith situation would qualify. That would eliminate the weirdness of having a ceremony with a Christian congregation.

So other than baptism, are there any Christian practices that are a deal-breaker for you guys? You are the only one who knows your situation, but it seems like you could still work this out.

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 10/15/2008 8:42:10 PM
Author: LeggoMyEggo
Did you ask her what it is about baptism, specifically, that makes it so important to her?


As an open-minded Christian, I could totally let my children participate in Jewish holidays and traditions, and learn about God''s history of salvation of the world out of love, and make a choice as an adult about whether/how Jesus fits into that. I would, of course, share with them my beliefs along the way, but in a way that is also respectful of my husband''s beliefs. But I also believe that something significant happens through baptism (marking and sealing as belonging to God and to Christ, and grace to grow in relationship with God throughout life), and I couldn''t in good conscience deny my child that gift. I could be pretty easy-going about most things, but at the very least they would HAVE to be baptized. My guess is this is why she feels this way, too.


A more mainline Protestant Christian denomination (Lutheran, Episcopalian, or maybe Methodist or Presbyterian) might be open to doing a baptism with the understanding that your girlfriend would share her faith with her children along the way, in addition to their Jewish upbringing. I''m pretty sure my own pastor would do it. In fact, Lutherans and Episcopalians will do private baptisms if there''s a good cause, and I think your interfaith situation would qualify. That would eliminate the weirdness of having a ceremony with a Christian congregation.


So other than baptism, are there any Christian practices that are a deal-breaker for you guys? You are the only one who knows your situation, but it seems like you could still work this out.

It would be pretty difficult to raise Jewish children without a Jewish mother because according to the laws of Judaism, the children are not considered Jewish unless the mother is Jewish. If the mother is Jewish and the father is not, the children can still be Jewish, but not the other way around.

 

[diamondfan]

ILC, that is not strictly true. In Reform Judaism there is patrilineal decent which means either the mother or father can be Jewish. In olden times it was more strict as you could prove maternity easier than paternity. More strictly observant Jews still think the mother is the one, but in less strict adherence, it can be either parent.

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 10/15/2008 9:14:48 PM
Author: diamondfan
ILC, that is not strictly true. In Reform Judaism there is patrilineal decent which means either the mother or father can be Jewish. In olden times it was more strict as you could prove maternity easier than paternity. More strictly observant Jews still think the mother is the one, but in less strict adherence, it can be either parent.

I didn''t know that Dfan. Is that relatively new?

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 10/15/2008 9:17:49 PM
Author: iluvcarats

Date: 10/15/2008 9:14:48 PM

Author: diamondfan

ILC, that is not strictly true. In Reform Judaism there is patrilineal decent which means either the mother or father can be Jewish. In olden times it was more strict as you could prove maternity easier than paternity. More strictly observant Jews still think the mother is the one, but in less strict adherence, it can be either parent.

I didn''t know that Dfan. Is that relatively new?

I just want to clarify that if the mom isn''t born Jewish, but then converts, that the children are then recognized as Jewish.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 10/15/2008 9:14:48 PM
Author: diamondfan
ILC, that is not strictly true. In Reform Judaism there is patrilineal decent which means either the mother or father can be Jewish. In olden times it was more strict as you could prove maternity easier than paternity. More strictly observant Jews still think the mother is the one, but in less strict adherence, it can be either parent.

Interesting. Did that come into effect when paternity testing became available?

 

[diamondfan]

not sure. my children are at a reform temple and it is in the bar mitzvah literature. It was held that a mom had to be a Jew at the time of the child''s birth, but I think these came from some of the changes in the reform movement, not sure when though. But this only holds true for Reform Jews.

 

[AvusM5]

I'll play Devil's advocate here ...

For the woman you truly love, you should be willing to sacrifice some of the most important things in life. Even something as close to you as religion. I know MANY people that have given up on their devout views for the person they love; my close cousin being one of them.

And not to sound rude or offense, but I don't think you're telling us everything. She wouldn't just out of the blue come out with all this after four years from one fight, something is definitely missing with this.

My .02 on the subject matter

 

[sklingem]

Sorry to hear about your heartbreak!! I have to say though that I am suprised that you decided to date and (almost) to marry a person who does not share beliefs that you are willing to break up over!! If religion were so important to you in the first place, it may have been a more reasonable move to date someone of your same faith. I am still not sure how you could be OK with her not sharing your religion but not be OK because your children may not be brought up the same way? Children''s religious beliefs trump SO''s religious beliefs?? Hm. Cautionary tale in any case: be careful what things you make compromises on - or THINK that you can make compromises on.

 

[snuggles1]

I''m sorry to hear about your situation. I don''t know if this will help, but friends of mine were Irish Catholic and a Protestant. They both agreed to change their religion to Episcopal when they got married.

And I know of someone who had a wedding where they had a Rabbi and a Priest. They ended up adopting kids from China and raised the kids under both religions...I''m not sure how they did it, but they both had to compromise quite a few things in the end and it worked out.

 

[smooleys]

Maybe I wasn''t clear. I''ll try again. For the four years that we were dating, she told me she didn''t really care about her religion and was fine with raising Jewish children. The way she explained it to me now was that she recently was having second thoughts about that and realized religion was important to her. She didn''t tell me she was thinking like this, otherwise of course I wouldn''t go out and buy a ring! It came out during a little tiff that was unrelated 24 hours before the proposal. So, it comes down to the fact that we both feel our religions are important to us, and they are somewhat incompatible with each other. In other words, the children would have to be one or the other. Since she is the mother, and thus not Jewish, the kids would have to be converted at birth or shortly thereafter. That was the plan. And, religion is important enough that one shouldn''t have to "give it up" to be with one they love. I totally disagree. We are not talking about giving up your favorite food or tv show. Religion plays a part in everyone''s life, to different degrees, but if both people aren''t on the same page, then problems will arise throughout life on holidays, religious events, etc. I just wish I did know how she felt, otherwise we wouldn''t have gotten involved. I belief her when she said these thoughts are recent and that she thought she wanted one thing, but now wants another. That''s why this is tragic.

 

[ahappygirl]

Just wanted to say I''m very sorry you are going through this. It is absolutely legitimate to not be willing to give up your religion if you don''t want to. I wouldn''t and couldn''t. I believe you when she said her views have changed and this was probably a good faith (no pun intended) and fairly recent change of heart, as you know her and believe this. It''s not uncommon as people get older or closer to marriage/ children to re-evaluate what is important to them. I''m glad you know this about yourself and am sorry her feelings are causing heartbreak, but better for both of you now than after the fact. Sometimes being raised with more than one faith works out but it can also lead to kids really ending up having no religion or feeling like they have to pick sides or reject/ choose one parent over the other. It depends upon how the parents work it out (or don''t), as well as pressure (or support) from extended families.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree that it is very tragic. I am so sorry. I will say that when one is committed to a religion, they really should marry someone who is of that religion or who commits to converting to that religion after having instruction in it. It is much less confusing for the children when they are being raised by parents who are in agreement. I would think most religions would require or strongly recommend marrying someone of the same faith. This situation could only work if one person was totally not religious and allowed the other parent to do all the religious training. I still think that is not particularly good for the children, though.

 

[decodelighted]

Unfortunately few people have clear insight into how they''d actually feel about a situation when it is abstract. The closer you get to "d-day" ... the more people''s REAL feelings come out. I''m sorry that you had to learn this unavoidable life lesson in this harsh, heartbreaking way.

I''ve know a few couples who have DIVORCED after disagreeing about having children or not ... or adopting or not. People who 100% thought they were on the same page - & then one person changed their mind when the decision became imminent.

Cold comfort but better now than later. CERTAINLY better than if there already *were* innocent kids involved. Or a pregnancy.

You have my sympathy!

 

[SailorsSweet<3]

smooley - I sympathize with you. I''m surprised that she now has such strong beliefs and desire to adhere to her religion which she apparently wasn''t that devoted to at the beginning of your relationship. What brought about her change in heart? When you mentioned in your opening that "she wasn''t religious" I assumed she was practically, if not completely, agnostic. I understand your position - I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic grammar school as well as high school. I dont know much about Judiasm, but Im more than aware of how the Christian belief completely contradicts Jewish teachings. Everything I was taught centered around Jesus. I''m sure you could do some research and find ways one might approach situations - like explaining the new testament and Jesus to a child who''s been raised part Jewish and vise versa (I again cannot wrap my mind around those different teachings coexisting in a 5 year olds head.) Possibly children psychology books aimed at religion, or how to raise children in a multi-religion family unit? Maybe theres something thats being overlooked in both religions that can offer a solution? I agree that if you both were not on the same page it would forever cause problems especially with your families and their varying opinions adding to the confusion. Im sorry things didnt work out for you. As many have already said, it may just be for the better.

 

[smooleys]

Thank you for your thoughts. It comes down wanting to raise our future children different ways. There is a lot of similarities between Catholicism and Judaism, but of course with the New Testament, there are many differences too. She wants her kids baptized, and that conflicts with raising them Jewish. Just fundamental differences that I wish I knew about years ago. But, like you said, it''s hard to truly know how you feel until the moment is before you, which seems like it happened here. I know it''s for the better that it happened now rather than later, but that doesn''t make it any easier now. I guess the hard part about all this is the fact that the relationship itself was/is great and that''s not why this isn''t working out. A hard life lesson learned, unfortunately.

 

[princesss]

Smooleys, I''m so sorry you are going through this. It''s a very difficult thing to break up when it''s not a matter of falling out of love, but conflicting values. I know if my BF said that if/when we have kids, he doesn''t want them baptized, I couldn''t go further in the relationship. Religion is a very serious thing, and it seems that, in your case, baptizing the children would be saying, "Sure, honey, you can teach them about your religion, but I think mine is more important." Which, honestly, most people think about their religion (otherwise they wouldn''t belong to it), but I can see where it would cause serious problems in an interfaith relationship. It''s a shame there''s no way to compromise, but sometimes that is life.

*hug*

 

[prettylnpink419]

I''m so sorry to hear about your situation.

One of my best friends was raised in an experience like you shared. Her mom is Catholic, her dad is Jewish. The way they did it in their household...her brother was raised Jewish and she was raised Catholic like her mom. She was baptized and her brother went through all of the jewish ceremonies. It worked for them! Have you thought about sharing your religions like that? Just a though.

 

[smooleys]

Princess, I have no problem teaching about other religions, etc. But, there is a difference between teaching and practicing. Having a baptism is practicing, which conflicts with practicing Judaism. That''s all I was saying. Of course I would want us to teach about where she comes from, etc. but the practicing and going through the religious ceremonies is where the conflict lies, because Jews don''t get baptized.

As far raising one child one way and another child another, I don''t see that working. I am glad it does for his family, but to me that would divide the family even more. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[princesss]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:12:38 PM
Author: smooleys
Princess, I have no problem teaching about other religions, etc. But, there is a difference between teaching and practicing. Having a baptism is practicing, which conflicts with practicing Judaism. That''s all I was saying. Of course I would want us to teach about where she comes from, etc. but the practicing and going through the religious ceremonies is where the conflict lies, because Jews don''t get baptized.


As far raising one child one way and another child another, I don''t see that working. I am glad it does for his family, but to me that would divide the family even more. Thanks for the suggestion though.

That''s what I was trying to get at. By insisting that a child be baptized, it would be like her insisting on only "teaching" Judaism, not practicing.

At any rate, I am sorry you''re going through a tough time.

 

[smooleys]

Ah, got it. I thought you meant something else. Thanks for your thoughts/wishes.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/19/2008 11:08:58 AM
Author: smooleys
Ah, got it. I thought you meant something else. Thanks for your thoughts/wishes.

I really am so sorry to hear of your sorrow. I''ve been through breakups like that (not for religious reasons) where both parties truly do love one another, but at the time, it was just not right, you know? (Ended up marrying the guy 27 years LATER, but that''s not for this thread). Hurts like hell.

With the observation of years, I can say that of all religious denominations..or "traditions" rather, Judaism and Catholicsm put their stamp more firmly on people than any others. Protestants don''t seem to have quite the problem moving around. And it also seems that even when a person falls away for a time from the tradition they were raised in, when it comes to children, they fall back into it. I''ve seen it happen often.
I don''t doubt for a minute that your love''s doubts WERE recent...as the idea of having children became more real in her mind, and less of a thing in the distant future.

I"m sorry I have no words of wisdom for you. I''ll only say from my own experience, that life will never go exactly as you plan. My life certainly hasn''t. But it never gets so grim that another wonderful surprise or some good thing is not waiting around the next corner. Hang on through the grief and the sun WILL come out again. I wish you strength in this difficult time!!

 

[enigma1406]

I know what you are going through, but to a much lesser degree. For myself and a few others that I know the ultimate resolve was to move on. The key difference here is that you were/are in a much different place in your relationship. I truly hope that you can find a way to reconcile this. Being in love is rarely easy. Good luck.

 

[smooleys]

Trust me, I know how hard it is to find someone special out there. I have two brothers who have in doing online dating for years...nothing of substance yet. I guess that''s why this hurts so much...because I know what we had is unique and doesn''t come along every day. I can only hope that we both find someone to love as much as we did each other.

 

[kelpie]

Obviously lovers should discuss their future goals about kids in order to avoid upsets like this down the road. However, my impression is that you are more focused on being a "family" than you are being a couple. What if kids don't even end up being part of the equation? Anyone you love as much as you say you love is worth making sacrifices for. If you aren't willing to make them (out of consideration for her happiness and not a tit-for-tat scenario), then didn't love her enough to marry her.

My outsider perspective is that allowing her to have her children baptized is not that big of a deal. It is a one time event per child. Sure the ritual is an act of claiming them for the church, but if you discuss this with a priest I'm sure he would understand that they will in fact be raised predominantly Jewish. Also remember that you can raise kids with whatever teachings you wish, but ultimately all children grow up and find their own religious beliefs, which may or may not conflict with their parents'. The church has been around long enough to deal with this scenario over and over and they understand that if they want to keep members they need to accommodate the complex modern relationships people have today. Before you bury the relationship see if you can have a joint meeting with a priest and a rabbi and have them both counsel you.

You are being the inflexible one. She is not asking you to give up anything. She only wants for a little piece of her culture to be shared with her kids. If you truly love her you'll give her the gift of being flexible and she'll give you the gift of loving you for the rest of her life. I'd think it'd be a no-brainer.

 

[sklingem]

Date: 10/19/2008 10:28:48 PM
Author: kelpie
Obviously lovers should discuss their future goals about kids in order to avoid upsets like this down the road. However, my impression is that you are more focused on being a ''family'' than you are being a couple. What if kids don''t even end up being part of the equation? Anyone you love as much as you say you love is worth making sacrifices for. If you aren''t willing to make them (out of consideration for her happiness and not a tit-for-tat scenario), then didn''t love her enough to marry her.


My outsider perspective is that allowing her to have her children baptized is not that big of a deal. It is a one time event per child. Sure the ritual is an act of claiming them for the church, but if you discuss this with a priest I''m sure he would understand that they will in fact be raised predominantly Jewish. Also remember that you can raise kids with whatever teachings you wish, but ultimately all children grow up and find their own religious beliefs, which may or may not conflict with their parents''. The church has been around long enough to deal with this scenario over and over and they understand that if they want to keep members they need to accommodate the complex modern relationships people have today. Before you bury the relationship see if you can have a joint meeting with a priest and a rabbi and have them both counsel you.


You are being the inflexible one. She is not asking you to give up anything. She only wants for a little piece of her culture to be shared with her kids. If you truly love her you''ll give her the gift of being flexible and she''ll give you the gift of loving you for the rest of her life. I''d think it''d be a no-brainer.

Although it is pry too late by now - some very good points here.