A friend''s ering was stolen... insurance help!

[Scintillating]

Okay a friend of mine had her engagement ring stolen out of her home.
She was insured, but the insurance company (commerce) is giving her significantly less than the ering was worth.

She had a .75 G VS2 IGI certified princess cut, with .50 ctw princess sides, in 14K WG.
Her fiance payed $6500.

The insurance company wants her to go through Hannoush or DeCenza (sp?) and are willing to give her $4K to replace it. She's really unsatisfied with this, and wants to go to a jeweler she selects - and feels like they should reimburse her the full purchase price of her ring.

Any one have any suggestions on a course of action?
Any suggestions on getting them to up their offer?
HELP!

She's also out a 1.5c Sapphire and diamond ring and her wedding band, which the insurance company is giving her $200 to replace. Blech!

Scintillating...

 

[Scintillating]

Oh- and company has flatly refused to cut her a check to spend at the jeweler of her choice. Can they do that?

Scintillating...

 

[belle]

Date: 10/27/2006 1:34:30 PM
Author: Scintillating
Oh- and company has flatly refused to cut her a check to spend at the jeweler of her choice. Can they do that?

Scintillating...

it depends on what her policy is.

sorry to hear of this scintillating.

it would totally suck to have your jewelry, or anything for that matter, stolen.

she is going to be limited to the contract of her policy of what''s covered and how items are replaced. most are very limiting and not generous at all unfortunately.

 

[Upside Down Man]

I am not trying to be snide, I truly don''t know: isn''t that why you give an appraisal to the insurance company? Isn''t the premium you pay for your insurance every year based on the appraisal value? So why wouldn''t you get the appraisal value in the end?

 

[allycat0303]

Aw Scint. That''s really awful. It depends on what is written on the policy. If it''s not specified then that gets really iffy. In Canada there is an independed agency that you can go to for recourse if you are really unhappy with a settlement offered by an insurance company. I don''t know if that exists in the US.

On my policy it was specified that I would get a check for x amount if stolen, crushed beyond recognition etc. The insurance company didn''t hesitate when we had this issue. In any case, I hope it works out!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think this is why insurance valuations are often more than you paid. If he paid $6500 and the insurance appraisal was say $9000, then they''d more likely get an amount closer to the real value of the ring. Were the other rings appraised and listed indivudually on the policy? If not, you won''t get much for those. What was the amount that this ring was insured for?

 

[Scintillating]

She never had an independent appraisal done.
I think she just submitted the receipt, and the cert.

Scintillating...

 

[Upside Down Man]

I am so sorry to hear it, scint. I feel like the trouble and expense of fighting the insurance company over the value of the claim will end up costing more than the difference in value ($2,500), making it inefficient to pursue further recourse.

And what''s worse? I''m sure the insurance company knows that.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/27/2006 1:49:16 PM
Author: Scintillating
She never had an independent appraisal done.
I think she just submitted the receipt, and the cert.

Scintillating...

I have done that, too, on some lower priced items. But most jewelers will provide you with an insurance valuation that is inflated somewhat over the price you paid. In one way, I hate it because it makes the premiums higher, but on the other hand, it gives you protection if you really do lose your stone. I definitely used the higer appraised value on my new rings for the insurance. I might be willing to take more of a loss on a $2000 pair of earrings, for example. Tell her next time she needs an insurance valuation even if it is from the jeweler she buys it from. I did not get an independent appraisal. Mine just came with the rings.

 

[Scintillating]

yeah, I'm encouraging her to go to an independent appraiser (Jeff Averbook).
It sucks that it's after the fact. How many people get their ring stolen or lost twice?

Any suggestion on how to negotiate with them? Get them to bring up their offer - or is that a complete impossibility?

Scintillating...

 

[Arcam]

"Any suggestion on how to negotiate with them? Get them to bring up their offer - or is that a complete impossibility?"

as stated before, its really a matter of how the policy is written. I would have your friend re-read her policy and then determine what to do. If the insurance company is not honoring their policy thats one issue, but trying to negotiate over something that isn''t in the "contract"/insurance policy will most likely be pointless.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Just wanted to say that I am so so sorry to read this. Please tell your friend that we feel for her.

 

[Scintillating]

Point taken Arcam. I''ll suggest she look over her policy.
It looks like they will take a significant loss here.

Scintillating...

 

[denverappraiser]

Read the policy to see what the rules are regarding your particular policy. Usually they are agreeing to replace with ‘like kind and quality’ or words to this effect in the case of a loss. Defining this is the primary purpose of asking you to submit an appraisal. If they have a jeweler who can truly match the piece for 50% less money, this is good news because now you know a better place to go for your next one. If their chosen jeweler can’t do it, then they haven’t given you like kind and quality. Read the description on the appraisal, or whatever it was that you submitted at the beginning of the policy. That will be the bottom line description. You may be able to insist on replacement by the original jeweler, especially if it’s a copyrighted or designer piece and if it''s contained in that description. They are welcome to try and argue the jeweler into giving them a discount but, in the end, they must comply with the terms of the contract. Read it carefully.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Kaleigh]

Oh geez Scint, that stinks. I have no advice to give, but wanted to say I''m so sorry. Please keep us posted!!

 

[Dee*Jay]

If your friend doesn''t want to work with either of the two jewelers that were originally offered to her the insurance company should give her more options. One of my girlfriends had quite a bit of good jewelry stolen and her insurance company first offered her Whitehall and Fred Meyer. She was beside herself, knowing that those stores didn''t have the quality of stones that were in her pieces (and please, absolutely no disrespect meant to anyone who has purchased from those stores), so I made her get back on the phone with the insurance company and get more choices. They then went farther down their list and the choices got better. So, if she hasn''t already, it might pay for your friend to call back and get more vendors to choose from.

And so very sorry to hear about your friend''s theft.

 

[Scintillating]

Thanks Deejay,
She has asked for other jewelers to work with She refused to work with Hannoush or DeCenza. She''s has the okay, and is thinking about working with Barmakian Jewelers; they have a few stores, Boston, NH, and Natick.
Anyone have any opinions/experiences with Barmakian?

Scintillating...

 

[Silverkae]

Hi Scintillating,

I''m sorry to hear about your friend''s theft.

Here''s my 2 cents. I work in the insurance industry and like denverappraiser, allycat0303, bellem, and Arcam have already said, it really depend on what is on your friend''s insurance policy. If she had the ring "scheduled or endorsed" meaning she had paid extra premium for the replacement of the ring then the ring is usually covered for it''s replacement cost if a similar ring cannot be found to replace her stolen one or if they cannot get her a ring at a lesser price. Her insurance company probably recommended those 2 companies/jewelers because according to their research (which the claims department is repsonsible for finding out) her ring would really only cost them the $4k to replaced instead of the $6k her husband paid for it. It''s unfortunate but most insurance companies will pay out the lesser of the two values if they can. I actually saw an story on 20/20 or primetime about people insuring their diamond rings for the purchase price (which is usually inflated if it''s a mall purchase) and expecting a check equivalent to the purchase price when it is actually worth less if bought elsewhere.

In regards to her other jewelry, most policies have "speicial limits of liability" for certain coverage as explained in her policy jacket in which they will pay only xxx amount of money if stolen or lost unless she had it scheduled or endorsed on her home policy. I alwasy recommend scheduling jewelry for the extra coverage. And appraisels for rings usually is higher than you can purchase them for which insurance companies are aware of as well.

I hope this helps.

 

[Scintillating]

She went to Barmakian this afternoon and picked something out! Whoa that was fast!
(Completely NOT something I or the average pscoper could do!)
She said they were very nice, helpful - and tried to get her the most for her money!
I can't wait to see it. They said it would be on her hand next wednesday.

Scintillating...

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 10/27/2006 1:47:36 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think this is why insurance valuations are often more than you paid. If he paid $6500 and the insurance appraisal was say $9000, then they''d more likely get an amount closer to the real value of the ring. Were the other rings appraised and listed indivudually on the policy? If not, you won''t get much for those. What was the amount that this ring was insured for?

DS - In a replacement policy, it is incorrect to think that an overstatement of value is going to make a difference in the claim amount.

IT DOESN''T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So how does the insurance company come up with the amount they offer you?

1. They take the appraisal and call companies that replace goods for them a discount prices. They look over the description of the appraisal and quote a price to the insurance company. That is what the insurance company offers to pay. So in essence, if the replacement company tells them it will cost $ 5000.00 to replace the item through that company, it is academic how much its insured for. Generally the policies say this is the method of how they settle claims.

2. When a cost to replace the insured item is in excess of the insured amount, the insurance company in a replacement type policy doesn''t have to pay MORE than the insured amount regardless of how much more costly it is.

_______________________

Now that said, I have had situations numerous times, where the quote to replace the item is significantly less than it actually is ( most commonly done by the replacement company if they don''t think the insured is going to get the items replaced through the replacement company making the quote).

I had such a situation for a client where they had almost $90,000. of sheduled jewelry insured, and the replacement company quoted about $ 18,000 to the insurance company because they knew the insured wasn''t going to replace the items. The prices they quoted were less than the scrap metal prices.

The insured had to hire an attorney, and an expert ( rockdoc) to prove what the facts were. He did finally get paid the total amount, but not without a costly "fight".

The above is why I keep harping in here over and over why consumers should get stated value type coverage, so there is no "problems" with the claim, since they for over the amount you insured it for, and in the case of Chubb, up to 150% if the item''s costs increase over time or availability.

_________________


The $ 200.00 quote to replace a sapphire of 1.50 and a ring of precious metal seems incredibily low. So it is also possible that the quote for the diamond ring is also a "low ball".

That person needs a well experienced and expert appraiser to assist them in the claim.

Rockdoc

 

[Amanda21]

Hi Scintillating,

So sorry for your friend''s loss.

Fortunately, Barmakian''s is a pretty good jewlery store. My mom got her 1.5 carat engagement ring from Barmakian''s in New Hampshire, and it is STUNNING.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 10/27/2006 1:44:58 PM
Author: Upside Down Man
I am not trying to be snide, I truly don''t know: isn''t that why you give an appraisal to the insurance company? Isn''t the premium you pay for your insurance every year based on the appraisal value? So why wouldn''t you get the appraisal value in the end?

You''re not being snide. For a person who has to struggle interpreting the legalese written in to the average policy, even a reasonable consumer would jusitiably assume if you insure something for a stated amount, if you have a loss that is what you''ll be paid. Unfortunately, with the standard homeowner''s and replacement policy type contracts, that is not how they settle claims.


If you buy an all risk, stated value type policy, they cut you a check for the insured amount. It is a far better policy to buy then the standard replacement type policy.

So if you have insurance read the policy! If you don''t consider getting the stated value type policy, if the item is valauable enough ( generally has to be worth around $ 10K ).

Rockdoc

 

[Scintillating]

Date: 10/27/2006 6:05:37 PM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 10/27/2006 1:44:58 PM

You''re not being snide. For a person who has to struggle interpreting the legalese written in to the average policy, even a reasonable consumer would jusitiably assume if you insure something for a stated amount, if you have a loss that is what you''ll be paid.


If you buy an all risk, stated value type policy, they cut you a check for the insured amount. It is a far better policy to buy then the standard replacement type policy.

Rockdoc

RocDoc-
Can you give us some examples of who offers "all risk - stated value type policy"
I know my Chubb policy is a stated value type policy. Does anyone else offer this kind of policy?

Thanks!

Scintillating...

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 10/27/2006 2:21:28 PM
Author: Arcam
''Any suggestion on how to negotiate with them? Get them to bring up their offer - or is that a complete impossibility?''

as stated before, its really a matter of how the policy is written. I would have your friend re-read her policy and then determine what to do. If the insurance company is not honoring their policy thats one issue, but trying to negotiate over something that isn''t in the ''contract''/insurance policy will most likely be pointless.

OK guys .... here is what the typical policy language says about this :


Look at a section of the policy that has the conditions of " If you don''t agree with our cost to replace " etc.


Most likely it spells out a procedure that includes variance of the details I''ve listed below :


1. You cannot bring suit against us unless a particular procedure has been followed.

2. Usually that procedure defines a process where the insurance company''s appraiser, and your appraiser get together and agree on a replacement cost. Each appraiser provides the other with the details of how their values were reached.

3. In the event that the two appraisers can''t agree, and addition appraiser is brought in called an Umpire Appraiser, who attempts to "mediate" the opinions of the two independent appraisers.

4. If that procedure fails, then some policies require either the arbitration mediation or arbitration procedure.

This will vary from insurance company and policy type, and also by state. Some policies totally restrict you right to sue.

Sort of a shock, especially if you paid for years of premiums before you had a claim.

_______________________


Of course by this point in the claims process, you are ready to strangle everyone involved with the whole scenario.

Read your policy, and if you don''t like it, switch to Chubb, or a stated value type policy where this stuff just isn''t part of getting the claim paid properly.

Rockdoc

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/27/2006 6:00:02 PM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 10/27/2006 1:47:36 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think this is why insurance valuations are often more than you paid. If he paid $6500 and the insurance appraisal was say $9000, then they''d more likely get an amount closer to the real value of the ring. Were the other rings appraised and listed indivudually on the policy? If not, you won''t get much for those. What was the amount that this ring was insured for?

DS - In a replacement policy, it is incorrect to think that an overstatement of value is going to make a difference in the claim amount.

IT DOESN''T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So how does the insurance company come up with the amount they offer you?

1. They take the appraisal and call companies that replace goods for them a discount prices. They look over the description of the appraisal and quote a price to the insurance company. That is what the insurance company offers to pay. So in essence, if the replacement company tells them it will cost $ 5000.00 to replace the item through that company, it is academic how much its insured for. Generally the policies say this is the method of how they settle claims.

2. When a cost to replace the insured item is in excess of the insured amount, the insurance company in a replacement type policy doesn''t have to pay MORE than the insured amount regardless of how much more costly it is.

_______________________

Now that said, I have had situations numerous times, where the quote to replace the item is significantly less than it actually is ( most commonly done by the replacement company if they don''t think the insured is going to get the items replaced through the replacement company making the quote).

I had such a situation for a client where they had almost $90,000. of sheduled jewelry insured, and the replacement company quoted about $ 18,000 to the insurance company because they knew the insured wasn''t going to replace the items. The prices they quoted were less than the scrap metal prices.

The insured had to hire an attorney, and an expert ( rockdoc) to prove what the facts were. He did finally get paid the total amount, but not without a costly ''fight''.

The above is why I keep harping in here over and over why consumers should get stated value type coverage, so there is no ''problems'' with the claim, since they for over the amount you insured it for, and in the case of Chubb, up to 150% if the item''s costs increase over time or availability.

_________________


The $ 200.00 quote to replace a sapphire of 1.50 and a ring of precious metal seems incredibily low. So it is also possible that the quote for the diamond ring is also a ''low ball''.

That person needs a well experienced and expert appraiser to assist them in the claim.

Rockdoc

Okay. So are your saying that if I got an excellent price for my diamond and insure it for the exact purchase price, that if it goes up in value over the next few years and the insurance company does not require an updated appraisal, they will allow me MORE than the value I have it insured for because they have agreed to replace it with a like stone? I think we need to be perfectly clear on this because you also said they''d assume the price was inflated. What if it wasn''t?

 

[Scintillating]

DiamondSeeker,
I *think* that''s why you want to insure it for the full-retail price of the stone (and setting) *NOT* what you paid for it. I also think you''re supposed to update your policy every couple years.

But what you said resonates with me *if they say they will replace your H&As it with like kind* and it goes up in value - they will pay more than the insured value!* I think that''s why vendors like GOG go to such lengths to provide you with a detailed appraisal, and why independent appraisals are so important for replacing with like kind. Not all diamonds are *CUT* equal.

I hate insurance! I hate paying my Chubb premium, but it really does give me peace of mind. This has confirmed my decision to renew my policy in January.

Scintillating...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It is really confusing! It sounds like if they look at the appraisal and decide they can replace the stone for say $10,000, it really doesn''t matter whether the appraisal says $10,000 or $20,000. So in that case, you''d definitely not want to insure it for a penny over the purchase price. What worries me is the fact he says he knows insurance companies know that insurance valuations usually overstate the price, so how will that work when you don''t?

 

[mrssalvo]

DS, I don''t know all the inner workings of insurance companies but I insured my original e-ring for the inflated value 8K. when I had a claim, they could replace my stone with like kind for around $5400. So for 5 years I should have been paying lower premiums or just what I paid b/c they will not replace my stone with one that is 8K. Now, I had an OEC that they couldn''t find. Guess what, they cashed me out at $5400, not the 8K i''d been paying premiums on. They were great about it honestly and I didn''t have a detailed appraisal and was happy but this time around I''m choosing to do it differently b/c I want to pick my own replacement stone if necessary. laney recently had a claim with her homeowners. she bought her stone from GOG and submitted all the paperwork Jon gives. When they went to replace it they couldn''t come close to all the details like her original stone and she wouldn''t accept what they offered so they ended up cashing her out. i don''t know the what price they cashed her out at but I do believe they were fair. I think having a detailed appraisal is key for at least the amount you paid plus some making it pretty impossible for them to replace and if they can then it has to be pretty darn close to your current stone.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I hate to keep plugging my insurance company on these threads, but here is my story...

About 7 years ago I lost my engagement ring while we were moving (one of those "putting the ring on the side of the sink while cleaning the bathroom and realizing several days later that it's gone situations). I called up my insurance company, which is Travelers, and told them what happened. They *suggested* to me that I go to [the following list of jewlers] and have my ring replaced. My response to that was, "NOT ONE CHANCE IN HELL." I was paying a premium for $X insured value, and according to my policy I was ENTITLED to a cash out value in the amount of my insured amount (PLUS sales tax, thank you very much!). So, I sweetly said, "I'll take a check, thank you." By the end of the week there was a check in my mailbox. Let me also say, they paid me out at a HIGHER amount than my ring was insured for due to an "escalation clause" in my policy. (I found the ring in a suitcase the next day and sent the check back, but that's beside the point.)

 

[RockDoc]

Okay. So are your saying that if I got an excellent price for my diamond and insure it for the exact purchase price, that if it goes up in value over the next few years and the insurance company does not require an updated appraisal, they will allow me MORE than the value I have it insured for because they have agreed to replace it with a like stone? I think we need to be perfectly clear on this because you also said they''d assume the price was inflated. What if it wasn''t?

______________________

I think you''re misunderstanding me.

In a replacement policy, the only meaning the value has is to set the maximum limit of what they would have to pay out to settle the claim.

If you insure it for the amount that is reasonably close to THEIR cost to replace it, then that is the most efficient way of insuring it that is also cost effective. However, this does require you being attentive to increase in prices... i.e. having the amount you insured it for updated.

If the insurance policy only pays THEIR cost to replace something insuring it in excess of that amount is just throwing your premium dollars down the hopper.

Insurance companies have files on what it costs to replace something based on very reliable statistics. So the underwriter knows what it will cost them. If the appraisal submitted is higher, it still gets approved as they get higher premiums. when within certain limits they know what their replacement cost will be in the event of a loss.

The ONLY logical "benefit" of insuring an for more, is if you don''t have the value updated, and the cost increases the limit of what they are obligated to pay. It does not mean they will automatically allow you more.

Rockdoc