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Your opinion on online vs offline shopping

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
I've visited a lot of shops recently as I'm looking for an engagement ring. From reading a lot, I've come to the conclusion that a diamond with the following specifications is what I should be aiming for:

GIA rated 1.0ct E VS1-2 with Excellent cut, symmetry, and polish, with a table between 52-60% and a depth around 60%.

I want to have this stone in a simple ring, to spend more money on the stone than the ring itself, as in the future I think it's probably going to yield the most when considering an upgrade.

I see a lot of people on here looking for diamonds from whiteflash.com, or jamesallen.com and their prices are about 15-20% more competitive than the shops that I've been to. I understand that the B&M stores I've been to need to support their establishment (which costs more money than selling online), and still profit on top of it.

Most shops said they would be amenable to me bringing in the raw materials (ring with mount and stone) and they would put it together. Others have said be wary of what you purchase on the internet.

1. If I buy a stone off the internet, I would assume I will get what I purchased. If I take it to a local store to get fitted, and it magically gets swapped... how am I going to figure out who replaced it? How can I be sure that the stone that I bring to the store is the same stone that I will have in my ring? Is this even a worry or an issue that people have faced in the past?

2. Am I better off purchasing a stone that is fitted from a reputable online store?

3. Should I get the diamond appraised after I get it off the internet? Should I get the ring appraised after the diamond is fitted in?

4. What should I consider when purchasing a ring/stone so that I'm in the best position possible when it's time for an upgrade?

5. What advice do you have for a first time buyer of a diamond/engagement ring? :)

Thank you for helping a newbie navigate through these waters!
 

Austina

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Feb 24, 2017
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7,554
If you post exactly what you’re looking for and your budget, the great folks here will help you find the perfect ring.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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18,014
Most PSers will tell you to avoid in person stores entirely, as the vendors discussed on these boards are more trustworthy than almost any local jeweler, and have better stones for more fair prices. I would buy the stone and setting all from one place, online. But not from a random website, from a trusted PS vendor. If you post your budget and what ring style you are going for we will help you!
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 23, 2018
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5,791
1. Regardless where you buy the stone, the method for verifying the stone isn't swapped is good practice. Two primary methods. Utilize 10-30x loupe/microscope to read the GIA/AGS number that is inscribed on the girdle of the stone. If you are doing this with a stone that is already in a setting then sometimes a prong, etc will cover up the inscription label. The 2nd method involves looking at your clarity plot of the stone you purchase and identifying those imperfections/inclusions on the stone itself to confirm it's the exact stone you purchased.

If you bring an outside stone in to have a jeweler set most good jewelers will take the time and precaution to inspect the stone on arrival and verify the number on the girdle and do a small inclusion chart. They should give you copies of both. When they are done, they then reverify the information with you before presenting it which provides reassurance the stone you checked in is the same stone you are checking out.

2. It is easier to buy a stone & setting at the same place. Less hassle and expense on your part. Especially if you are looking at a simple solitaire. There are some scenarios that warrant using different entities, but again, we try to encourage you do the stone & setting at the same place for your own sanity and to maximize savings.

3. Using an appraises for either online or B&M purchases can provide reassurance to the buyer, and is useful as it can be presented as official documentation for establishing value when you insure the ring. Many people choose to have the stone & setting examined together, but you can also do it separately.

4. Since an upgrade seems important to you, I would get familiar with the upgrade policies of the various vendors you are considering using, rather online or B&M. Sometimes spending the same or a little more with a particular vendor that has the policies you prefer or work best for you gives you maximum value. Here are a few popular choices:
  • WhiteFlash (WF) = Spend $1 more and get entire original stone purchase amount towards a new stone
  • High Performance Diamonds (HPD) / Crafted by Infinity (CBI) = Same as WF
  • Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD) = Similar to WF, except you must also upgrade 2 of the following 3 C's: carat weight, color or clarity
  • James Allen (JA) = Must spend 2x the original amount to get full values
5a. Absolutely DO NOT buy any stone online or B&M until you post the specs, price, etc here for us to help you. FYI, when I say specs this means a copy of the GIA/AGS certification. Figuring out the quality of the cut is the hardest things for consumers and this forum is full of people that can critique the hell out of a stone and ensure you are getting a quality stone.

5b. Make sure you stick with either GIA or AGS certified stones. Other labs exist but are untrustworthy.

5c. Adjust your parameters for GIA stones to this criteria to help find an ideal cut stone:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion & good faceting)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with 34 crown & good faceting)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets (many prefer 75 LGF's as they have fatter arrows & bolder flashes)
  • Ensure crown/pavilion angle is complimentary. Typically you want an inverse relationship such as steep 35 crown and shallow 40.6 pavilion, or perhaps shallow 34 crown and steep 40.9 pavilion. Also many love and adore 34.5/40.8 and 34.5/40.7 combos. Other combinations exist and work, but these are to give you an idea of what "complimentary" means.
5d. When buying a GIA stone, there is a generic formula to success:
  1. Narrow stone selections using criteria I gave you in 5c above.
  2. Check HCA scores and eliminate stones with scores above 2. https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
  3. Post potential stones for us to review.
  4. If a stone survives the comments, RESERVE THE STONE & request additional images from the vendor such as ASET, idealscope or hearts & arrows (H&A) images. The ASET and idealscope confirm light performance, whereas the H&A images confirm symmetry.
  5. Assuming you get one or all the images, post for review. FYI, it's hit & miss with getting these images so you may not get all them or even possibly none of them.
  6. If the images are good, order the stone. If they are bad, ditch the stone and start over.
  7. If there are no images, you have to make a gut call based on the data we have available. If it's a questionable stone I suggest starting over. If it's a strong contender I suggest ordering and examining with your eyes but being comfortable with rejecting the stone & sending back for a refund. It may be helpful for you to buy an ASET scope (approx $50) to help in these type of evaluations.
5e. Skip the hassles of the virtual inventory game where most GIA stones exist and utilize a super ideal vendor such as WF, HPD, BGD, VC, etc where all pictures, videos, light performance & symmetry images are available for review immediately. Additionally these stones will have the best of the best cuts and is like hitting an 'easy button'. Also, these guys normally have the best customer service and upgrade programs. Consequently, you will see they are priced a little higher.
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
Thank you for your answers.

I'm looking for a Solitaire ring in 14ct white gold with a 4 prong mount with a GIA rated 1.0ct E VS1-2 with Excellent cut, symmetry, and polish, with a table between 52-60% and a depth around 60%.

Ideally I would not want to spend more than $6k on it. I'd welcome alternatives in compromising quality for size as well.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
27,195
In a branded super ideal you can go lower than an E and still have a very white stone. Might be a place you want to compromise to get the size you
want. Your budget is tight for what you want.

I'm sure Sledge already said this but if you think you'll want to upgrade in the future you need to consider that now. Work with a vendor that will
give you 100% what you paid for the stone and not make you spend 2x or upgrade certain things.

The cheapest E/VS2 stone at JA (no setting) is $6170 and its not well cut. There are a few sites that are cheaper but your budget/specs are very tight.
I suggest you drop down to G/eye-clean SI to make more well-cut stones available to you.
 
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sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
Thank you for your answers.

I'm looking for a Solitaire ring in 14ct white gold with a 4 prong mount with a GIA rated 1.0ct E VS1-2 with Excellent cut, symmetry, and polish, with a table between 52-60% and a depth around 60%.

Ideally I would not want to spend more than $6k on it. I'd welcome alternatives in compromising quality for size as well.

Why those tables and depths? The values I suggested above for table & depth is more inline with ideal proportions.

Also, why insistent on the E+ color and VS2+ clarity? Quickly looking if I stay within those color & clarity constraints it appears you are around 0.90 carats to stay within $6k budget.
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
Why those tables and depths? The values I suggested above for table & depth is more inline with ideal proportions.

Also, why insistent on the E+ color and VS2+ clarity? Quickly looking if I stay within those color & clarity constraints it appears you are around 0.90 carats to stay within $6k budget.

I apologize sledge, I submitted my reply before I saw yours, but after you had posted. I'm definitely down with the suggestions you made.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
I apologize sledge, I submitted my reply before I saw yours, but after you had posted. I'm definitely down with the suggestions you made.

No biggie. We will do what you wish, so I was curious your logic.

Is there any flex on the color or clarity? I know sometimes values like this are desired for cultural reasons and other times it's because the buyer doesn't fully understand the impact of their request and because someone said it was the "best". Very rarely is it because the buyer knows and accepts their color and clarity acuity.

People always talk about 4 C's but I say there are 5 because cost (or budget) is so critical. Diamonds are a zero sum game meaning if you have fixed budget then you have to adjust up and down the other C's accordingly.

So maybe you get a E VS2 0.90ct for $6k. But if you adjust perhaps you get a 1+ carat G eye clean SI1 stone for $6k. In that scenario you give a little color and clarity to increase the size and stay within budget.
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18

Thank you for the suggestions blueMA! The first two seem to have some fluorescence and I was told that fluorescence may make the stone look blurry. The third one is too small. I will probably have to adjust my specs a little bit to get to the 1ct mark.

However, I strongly suggest you consider these at a bit higher price.
They're guaranteed performers and come with a great upgrade policy. You also save on tax, if not in TX.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4070342.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4068012.htm

These 2 are a little small as well. All 5 have great HCA scores less than 2. I will be modifying my query a little to get to 1.0ct minimum size.

Thanks again! If you find any interesting stones at 1.0ct, please post them!!! I would go for less color first while keeping the stone a VS2/SI1 with inclusions not visible to the eye, and excellent/ideal cuts.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
Knowledge is power. I'd encourage you to learn more about fluorescence and make your own determination.

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/understanding-diamond-fluorescence/

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/fact-checking-diamond-fluorescence-myths-dispelled/

What impact does fluorescence have on the appearance of a diamond?

GIA studies show that for the overwhelming majority of diamonds, the strength of fluorescence has no widely noticeable effect on appearance. In the GIA Fluorescence Study, it was found that the average person could not make a distinction between a diamond with fluorescence and a diamond without.

In many instances, observers prefer the appearance of diamonds that have medium to strong fluorescence. In rare cases, some diamonds with extremely strong fluorescence may appear hazy or oily; fewer than 0.2% of the fluorescent diamonds submitted to GIA exhibit this effect.

89954-690x460-diamond-fluorescence.jpg
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
Fluorescence not an issue, check!
tyty333 thank you very much for finding that stone. The cut seems to be amazing! I would be ok with going over my budget by say 10-15% to find something that I truly want. Everything about that stone says BUY ME lol, except for those inclusions. But I'm assuming that they would not be visible with the naked eye. Can anyone comment on GIA #6302971489?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
18,014
Fluorescence not an issue, check!
tyty333 thank you very much for finding that stone. The cut seems to be amazing! I would be ok with going over my budget by say 10-15% to find something that I truly want. Everything about that stone says BUY ME lol, except for those inclusions. But I'm assuming that they would not be visible with the naked eye. Can anyone comment on GIA #6302971489?
I doubt you'd see them in person with the naked eye, depending on how eagle eyed you are.
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
What about a medium to slightly thick girdle? How does girdle size affect performance / look?
 

blueMA

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
1,257
Fluorescence not an issue, check!
tyty333 thank you very much for finding that stone. The cut seems to be amazing! I would be ok with going over my budget by say 10-15% to find something that I truly want. Everything about that stone says BUY ME lol, except for those inclusions. But I'm assuming that they would not be visible with the naked eye. Can anyone comment on GIA #6302971489?

That's a good stone with your budget. You mostly likely won't see the inclusions in person at 1 ct. It does have a natural that may look like a tiny chip on the girdle, but you won't notice it once set. The stone has faint florescence combined with cloud (3rd grade setting on the report) that I tend to avoid, but chances are you won't notice the haziness in person, if any, under direct sun. With the 75 lgh and 35/40.6, it'll be a chunky sparkly stone with lots of colored fire.
 

IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
I've been looking at a lot of stones now........ I selected a few that I thought were worth considering:

GIA-2314283596
GIA-2307724240
GIA-6292847292
GIA-2307609528
GIA-7318116743
AGS-104102899002
AGS 104103891005
AGS-104102258005
AGS 104103554004

I really like Brian Gavin's cuts... they seem to be significantly better than most of the ones that I saw from other suppliers. They have a "Blue" line of diamonds that have high fluorescence that seems to be less expensive than non-fluorescent diamonds they sell... is high fluorescence less demanded?
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
I really like Brian Gavin's cuts... they seem to be significantly better than most of the ones that I saw from other suppliers. They have a "Blue" line of diamonds that have high fluorescence that seems to be less expensive than non-fluorescent diamonds they sell... is high fluorescence less demanded?

No issues with BGD Blue stones. They are super ideals with medium+ levels of fluor. The stone I bought my fiancee is a BGD Blue and honestly unless you put a black light up to it, you can't tell a difference. It's not "blue". It's not milky or hazy, etc. It's a well cut stone I got for a great price.

Stones with medium+ levels of fluor tend to sell for less money because many people consider it a negative trait. Where you normally run into problems is in stones that have very strong levels of fluor. In those cases, it can create a milky or hazy appearance.

According to GIA, less than 1% of all stones with fluor exhibit this problem. However, it's always good to confirm there are no milky/hazy issues with any stone that has fluor.

ETA:
Removed some data I already posted above. Sorry for the repeat.
 
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IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
18
Just realized it's a pain to find the stone based on just the GIA or AGS numbers... Sorry about that.

Could I get your impressions on the following stones please?

GIA 1.1ct H VS2 EEE $6,810
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...1-Carat-H-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-4024367Z7

AGS 1.04ct I VS2 ACA $7,054
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4061058.htm

AGS 1.05ct I SI1 III $6,943
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../1.050-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-c-104102258005

AGS 1.083 I VVS2 III $6,978
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...083-i-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-cbl-104103554004
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
Just realized it's a pain to find the stone based on just the GIA or AGS numbers... Sorry about that.

Could I get your impressions on the following stones please?

GIA 1.1ct H VS2 EEE $6,810
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...1-Carat-H-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-4024367Z7

AGS 1.04ct I VS2 ACA $7,054
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4061058.htm

AGS 1.05ct I SI1 III $6,943
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../1.050-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-c-104102258005

AGS 1.083 I VVS2 III $6,978
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...083-i-vvs2-round-diamond-ags-cbl-104103554004

I'd eliminate the ED stone. Despite liking the GIA H color, the cut quality, optical symmetry and upgrade programs are simply not on par with the WF and BGD super ideal stones. And there is no significant cost savings either.

I would call BGD and talk to them about the 1.05 I SI1. Stone looks great but I dont like the clarity plot. It's stupid clean which made me wonder why it's only SI1 and then I saw in the notes section, "clarity grade based on clouds not shown".

That is a note we typically advise people to avoid as it can mean the stone will look cloudy/hazy. However, in this case it warrants a call as BGD vets all their stones and can provide additional comments. If their comments are anything that eludes the stone isnt 100% clear I'd eliminate.

This leaves the 1.083 BGD and 1.04 WF stones. Both look great.

The BGD stone has strong blue fluor. I'm okay with that but I know you had concerns earlier. Point blank, I dont think it's an issue as long as you are mentally okay with it. A small advantage is that it can sometimes help whiten the stone a little in certain lighting. I don't see significant color improvement in my own BGD Blue so I wouldn't bank on a vast difference. More of a bonus and not a reason to buy it.

Only other thoughts are you mentioned upgrades in your initial post. Both BGD and WF have great programs but WF is a little better and less restrictive.

WF = spend $1 more and get full credit of original stone towards the new stone, no other restrictions

BGD = similar but you also have to upgrade 2 of the following 3 C's: carat weight, color or clarity.

Both vendors will treat you like royalty and have top quality stones. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from either. Because of the trade program and your initial uncertainty about fluor the WF stone might be a better fit for your situation but ultimately only you can decide.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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IonutZ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
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Is it true that a warmer stone like a K will show up whiter because of the quality of the cut?
 
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