Which Gemstone Labs to trust?

[_BUQARI_]

Hi everyone.

As you guys can see at the pictures there's some error concerning the different Reports.
Ruby vs. Sapphire - AIGS vs. GIA.
Heated vs. Unheated - EMIL vs. GIA.

The Reports provided in this post is EMIL vs. GIA and AIGS vs. GIA.
GIT vs. GIA will be updated within 60 days in this post to see whether they are correct or not.
So the question is whether to trust Asian Labs or not at all.

Whatsoever, just for plain fun - I might get some gemstones graded by AGL as well and compare them to GIA later this year.


NB! At the EMIL Lab Report it is stated;
"Sapphires are generally enhanced by heating.
No positive microscopic evidence was observed concerning either the natural or enhanced condition of this stone."
This does NOT mean that it has been heated or that they were unable to identify any treatment - it means that it is UNHEATED.

If EMIL had found any treatments or were unsure concerning any treatments, they would state it like this;
"Natural sapphires are generally enhanced by heating."

 

[_BUQARI_]

If EMIL found the Sapphire to be heated - they would state it like this;

 

[_BUQARI_]

GIA vs. AIGS

 

[AN0NYM0US]

GIA and AGL are the most trusted labs and this seems like the perfect example of why. The two "labs" that you used as comparisons are examples of "labs" that will typically state "results" that are soft and/or inaccurate. These "results" almost always make the stone seem more valuable. Dishonest and/or ignorant vendors know (or don't) this and use these labs to make their stones seem more valuable and sell them to less informed customers.

I think it is pretty safe to say you can trust the results of GIA over AIGS and EMIL

Also, I'm not a big ruby person, but if the MAIN color (as stated by AIGS) is PINK doesn't that automatically make it a PINK SAPPHIRE?

 

[_BUQARI_]

GIA and AGL are the most trusted labs and this seems like the perfect example of why. The two "labs" that you used as comparisons are examples of "labs" that will typically state "results" that are soft and/or inaccurate. These "results" almost always make the stone seem more valuable. Dishonest and/or ignorant vendors know (or don't) this and use these labs to make their stones seem more valuable and sell them to less informed customers.

I think it is pretty safe to say you can trust the results of GIA over AIGS and EMIL

Also, I'm not a big ruby person, but if the MAIN color (as stated by AIGS) is PINK doesn't that automatically make it a PINK SAPPHIRE?

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I know that GIA and AGL are the most trusted Labs.
I always get them graded by either GIA or AGL myself after I've purchased them.
I use to buy gemstones with either AIGS, EMIL or GIT Report because purchasing a gemstone with a GIA or AGL Report would always ask for higher prices.

My main concern when buying gemstones is "treatments", I always search for "Unheated" gemstones.
Treatments are almost always correct whether it's EMIL, GIA, AIGS, AGL, GIT etc. Reports.

To your last question, I have to answer both YES and NO.
I were thinking so myself untill a friend working for GIA told me that each and every Lab use their own Ruby Scale when it comes to color.
Lets say GIA has 20 grades of Ruby Colors, but AIGS has only 5 grades or AIGS might have lighter Ruby Colors than GIA would accept.
This way it might be a Ruby at a AIGS Report but a Sapphire at a GIA Report.
So it's both correct but still uncorrect, it depends on which Lab the customer would trust (GIA in my mind).

BUT my MAIN ISSUE regarding the AIGS vs. the GIA Report is this;
AIGS: Pink, Red
GIA: Purple, Pink
And the gemstone looks 100% as the picture in color - Reddish Pink in my opinion (not Purplish Pink).

Whatsoever, it's very confusing ... GIA and AGL is the most trusted Labs in the USA, in Asia AIGS and GIT is the best.
In Europe EGL and Gübelin is the most trusted - but in USA people tend to think that EGL is a "cheap" uncorrect Lab Service.
In my country we dont even got a Gemstone/Diamond Lab for grading - so I always send my gemstones to either GIA or AGL in the US.

 

[Pandora II]

SSEF and Gubelin are equally trustworthy and would be the labs of choice if you live in Europe. EGL gets shudders and raised eyebrows in my experience!

I hear mostly good about GRS and GIT.

If I had an expensive stone then AGL, SSEF and Gubelin would be my top choices. GIA would be after those - they're more for diamonds IMO.

There was a case a couple of years ago where GIA graded a synthetic alexandrite as a natural which was then picked up by AGL. No lab offers a guarantee or a certificate as the report is only the considered opinion of a trained member of staff.

 

[_BUQARI_]

SSEF and Gubelin are equally trustworthy and would be the labs of choice if you live in Europe.

I hear mostly good about GRS and GIT.

If I had an expensive stone then AGL, SSEF and Gubelin would be my top choices. GIA would be after those - they're more for diamonds IMO.

There was a case a couple of years ago where GIA graded a synthetic alexandrite as a natural which was then picked up by AGL. No lab offers a guarantee or a certificate as the report is only the considered opinion of a trained member of staff.

Thanks for your reply Pandora.
Yes, I know that AGL and Gübelin is the best for colored gemstones.

The weirdest thing about AGL vs. GIA in my opinion is that AGL got better equipment concerning gemstones and more complete Reports.
But the people who work for AGL are educated through GIA - so it's strange that they dont got the same equipment at GIA when they got the same education ...

The only reason why I sent them to GIA this time is because I got some credit there.
And AGL charge their customers ASAP.

Did you see my update (GIA Report) regarding the Yellow Sapphire we were talking about in Dec?
Sorry for the very slow reply to this post - only 4/11 gemstones is finished graded at GIA and has been there over 1 month or something.
I dont know what's going on there, only thing I know is that they are running really slow these days for some reason.
Whatsoever, the Yellow Sapphire has been successfully graded but has not yet been returned - only GIA results received.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/yellow-sapphires-now-im-even-more-confused.168988/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/yellow-sapphires-now-im-even-more-confused.168988/[/URL]

 

[Pandora II]

Did you have a full report done including asking them to rule out diffusion?

 

[_BUQARI_]

Did you have a full report done including asking them to rule out diffusion?

Full Origin Report only, I were thinking about Analytical Report but it had almost double price.
So I only choosed to get the Origin Report.

Whatsoever, I did not know it were possible to ask them to rule out diffusion.
If I'm not totally mistaking;
TE = Indication of heating = Heating without traces = No trace elements = No Diffusion?

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Just a few thoughts...

I use to buy gemstones with either AIGS, EMIL or GIT Report because purchasing a gemstone with a GIA or AGL Report would always ask for higher prices.

The reason GIA and AGL stones are more expensive is because they are represented accurately and the trade knows this. Your situation is prime example. Would you have even considered the pink sapphire if it was listed as one? I'm guessing you bought it because it was listed as a ruby. I'm also sure you paid more than you would have if it were accurately described as a pink sapphire.

My main concern when buying gemstones is "treatments", I always search for "Unheated" gemstones.
Treatments are almost always correct whether it's EMIL, GIA, AIGS, AGL, GIT etc. Reports.

What is "almost always" correct? What level of incompetence or falsification is acceptable to you? "60% of the time we get it right, every time."

You really need to stop comparing GIA and AGL to these other labs, they are not of similar quality and this thread shows that. This could be a costly mistake on your part

This way it might be a Ruby at a AIGS Report but a Sapphire at a GIA Report.
So it's both correct but still uncorrect, it depends on which Lab the customer would trust (GIA in my mind).

Couldn't agree more. Honestly I think most prefer AGL for gemstones, GIA for diamonds, but I would trust GIA and AGL over others.

BUT my MAIN ISSUE regarding the AIGS vs. the GIA Report is this;
AIGS: Pink, Red
GIA: Purple, Pink
And the gemstone looks 100% as the picture in color - Reddish Pink in my opinion (not Purplish Pink).

I`m not a gemstone grader, but I can see some purple. Besides what`s reddish-pink? Isn't that like saying blackish-grey?

BTW thank you for coming back and posting the results. It really is appreciated.

 

[_BUQARI_]

Just a few thoughts...

I use to buy gemstones with either AIGS, EMIL or GIT Report because purchasing a gemstone with a GIA or AGL Report would always ask for higher prices.

The reason GIA and AGL stones are more expensive is because they are represented accurately and the trade knows this. Your situation is prime example. Would you have even considered the pink sapphire if it was listed as one? I'm guessing you bought it because it was listed as a ruby. I'm also sure you paid more than you would have if it were accurately described as a pink sapphire.

My main concern when buying gemstones is "treatments", I always search for "Unheated" gemstones.
Treatments are almost always correct whether it's EMIL, GIA, AIGS, AGL, GIT etc. Reports.

What is "almost always" correct? What level of incompetence or falsification is acceptable to you? "60% of the time we get it right, every time."

You really need to stop comparing GIA and AGL to these other labs, they are not of similar quality and this thread shows that. This could be a costly mistake on your part

This way it might be a Ruby at a AIGS Report but a Sapphire at a GIA Report.
So it's both correct but still uncorrect, it depends on which Lab the customer would trust (GIA in my mind).

Couldn't agree more. Honestly I think most prefer AGL for gemstones, GIA for diamonds, but I would trust GIA and AGL over others.

BUT my MAIN ISSUE regarding the AIGS vs. the GIA Report is this;
AIGS: Pink, Red
GIA: Purple, Pink
And the gemstone looks 100% as the picture in color - Reddish Pink in my opinion (not Purplish Pink).

I`m not a gemstone grader, but I can see some purple. Besides what`s reddish-pink? Isn't that like saying blackish-grey?

BTW thank you for coming back and posting the results. It really is appreciated.

Almost correct = as long as the term NTE (No indication of heating) is correct, it's OK in my opinion.
Of course, I know when purchasing gemstones with Reports from other Labs than AGL/GIA is unsecure.
But it's a huge difference in price and as I trade in gemstones and diamonds - it would be almost no profit for me if I bought a gemstone/diamond already graded by GIA or AGL - there's the difference.

I'm not comparing them to eachother, I trust GIA and AGL more than any other Lab.
It might be "Purplish Pink", it's probably correct cause I trust GIA.
But I cant understand how AIGS can call it "Red" and not "Purple" then - I wouldn't think they were color-blind.
In my opinion (sight) the gemstone is "Reddish Pink" I can honestly not see any "Purple" IRL at all but I will not disagree with GIA's opinion whatsoever - so they're probably correct.

No problem at all - I promised to post all results, and so I did.
More results will be updated later this month (1-3 weeks probably).

 

[LD]

NB! At the EMIL Lab Report it is stated;
"Sapphires are generally enhanced by heating.
No positive microscopic evidence was observed concerning either the natural or enhanced condition of this stone."
This does NOT mean that it has been heated or that they were unable to identify any treatment - it means that it is UNHEATED.

I disagree with your interpretation. I read their statement as saying they couldn't find microscopic evidence to show it's unenhanced or enhanced but this DOES NOT mean it's unheated. It means they couldn't tell. What makes you believe that this statement is saying that the stone is unheated?????

At the end of the day, I wouldn't use GIA or EMIL for reports unless the stone already had one. My preferred route for coloured gemstones would be AGL, Gubelin or SSEF. I've got a large number of GIT reports (some of which have been sent to other labs also) and GIT hasn't got it wrong for me yet. AIGS I don't have a problem with but I know this is a hot topic.

BTW your yellow sapphire report says it has indications of heating so with that in mind, you cannot rule out BE diffusion.

Every lab makes errors - that's life.

 

[_BUQARI_]

NB! At the EMIL Lab Report it is stated;
"Sapphires are generally enhanced by heating.
No positive microscopic evidence was observed concerning either the natural or enhanced condition of this stone."
This does NOT mean that it has been heated or that they were unable to identify any treatment - it means that it is UNHEATED.

I disagree with your interpretation. I read their statement as saying they couldn't find microscopic evidence to show it's unenhanced or enhanced but this DOES NOT mean it's unheated. It means they couldn't tell. What makes you believe that this statement is saying that the stone is unheated?????

At the end of the day, I wouldn't use GIA or EMIL for reports unless the stone already had one. My preferred route for coloured gemstones would be AGL, Gubelin or SSSF.

I asked my vendor what were correct, he told me it were "unheated" when stated like that.
When asking the EMIL Lab regarding the Report they confirmed it to be "unheated".
I'm not working there myself, but that were what they told me.

If you see at other EMIL Lab Reports, it's never stated like that if the gemstone is either "heated" or if they are "unsure" - then it's stated "Generally enhanced by heating."

I can not answer you more than that, this is the only thing I were told myself.

About the Diffusion part;
TE = Indications of heating = No trace elements found.
Doesn't Diffusion always leave some trace elements?
The Corundum is always soaked in some elements before heating if it's going to have some diffusion = then the Sapphire would be a "TE1-TE5" and not plain "TE"???

NB! Graded "TE" by GIA.

I might be wrong ...

 

[LD]

I really don't think this is correct - it doesn't make sense if you're a natural English speaker. You need to clarify this with the lab - not a third party.

As there are indications of heating for your yellow pear sapphire, you cannot rule out BE diffusion. If I remember correctly EMIL cannot check for diffusion. They're not a lab that I would trust I'm afraid.

 

[_BUQARI_]

I really don't think this is correct - it doesn't make sense if you're a natural English speaker. You need to clarify this with the lab - not a third party.

As there are indications of heating for your yellow pear sapphire, you cannot rule out BE diffusion. If I remember correctly EMIL cannot check for diffusion. They're not a lab that I would trust I'm afraid.

About the Diffusion part;
TE = Indications of heating = No trace elements found.
Doesn't Diffusion always leave some trace elements?
The Corundum is always soaked in some elements before heating if it's going to have some diffusion = then the Sapphire would be a "TE1-TE5" and not plain "TE"???

NB! Graded "TE" by GIA.

I might be wrong ...

 

[LD]

TE1 etc is when there are fissures I believe - not sure that TE can rule out Be diffusion. Hopefully others can clarify. The GIA follow the LMHC guidelines I think for coloured gemstones. If so, then this may be helpful.

http://www.lmhc-gemology.org/pdfs/IS1_20111214.pdf

 

[_BUQARI_]

TE1 etc is when there are fissures I believe - not sure that TE can rule out Be diffusion. Hopefully others can clarify. The GIA follow the LMHC guidelines I think for coloured gemstones. If so, then this may be helpful.

http://www.lmhc-gemology.org/pdfs/IS1_20111214.pdf

Thank you for the link!

I will ask them on this coming Monday just to be 100% sure, as far as I know GIA Carlsbad is closed for today.

 

[LD]

I think you need to ask them specifically whether they tested for BE diffusion and if they didn't, could they.

Fingers crossed this turns out to be justed heated!

 

[_BUQARI_]

I think you need to ask them specifically whether they tested for BE diffusion and if they didn't, could they.

Fingers crossed this turns out to be justed heated!

Thank you!

I will ask the "agent" I got over there, she's really helpful and can probably explain it for me or get someone to test it for Diffusion.

 

[T L]

AGL hands down!! I just had a sapphire tested, and make sure you ask specifically for diffusion testing, as it is an extra price if it cannot be determined diagnostically. I don't trust any of the Asian gem labs for corundum, other stones, yes.

 

[VapidLapid]

I see pink and purple but not any red

 

[_BUQARI_]

AGL hands down!! I just had a sapphire tested, and make sure you ask specifically for diffusion testing, as it is an extra price if it cannot be determined diagnostically. I don't trust any of the Asian gem labs for corundum, other stones, yes.

Thanks for your reply, I will make sure to ask them about this test.

 

[_BUQARI_]

I see pink and purple but not any red

So you can really not see the bright RED edge around the whole gemstone on your monitor?
Do you got FULL HD monitor 1080p, TFT, LCD, or what?

 

[LD]

I see pink and purple but not any red

So you can really not see the bright RED edge around the whole gemstone on your monitor?
Do you got FULL HD monitor 1080p, TFT, LCD, or what?

Honestly, I don't see red either. Sorry.

 

[_BUQARI_]

I see pink and purple but not any red

So you can really not see the bright RED edge around the whole gemstone on your monitor?
Do you got FULL HD monitor 1080p, TFT, LCD, or what?

Honestly, I don't see red either. Sorry.

Hmh ... it might be the monitor settings (I use HD 1080p myself).
It might also be because of the Emerald Cut maybe ..
I can take some new pictures when it's back from GIA, I remember it to be quite "Reddish Pink" in color.

 

[Pandora II]

I can see red on one of my monitors, I haven't checked on the other but it tends to be bluer...

Note to self to recalibrate monitors...

 

[_BUQARI_]

I can see red on one of my monitors, I haven't checked on the other but it tends to be bluer...

Note to self to recalibrate monitors...

Thank you for letting us know, I appreciate it.
I found it to be a little odd, because the picture has Red in it at my regular computer.

Whatsoever, I know that colors on Apple/MAC are totally OFF extremely often when it comes to the color of gemstones!

 

[LD]

I have an HD monitor and it's not an Apple/Mac and has recently been calibrated. However that doesn't mean I'm right and others are wrong or vice versa. People "see" colours very differently. Somebody posted a quiz once where you had to move different tones of similar colours around so that it moved from dark to light (simplified description) and people were amazed by the results. There have been different videos as well on the subject. You may well see red, it doesn't mean others do. If you look at both reports, they both say that pink is the dominant colour.

If you research "when does a pink sapphire become a ruby" you'll see that it very much depends where you are in the world as to your tolerance for how much red there should be and personal taste. One man's ruby is another's sapphire! In all honesty I prefer some purple in my rubies rather than pink but that's just a personal taste. Others will hate it!

 

[_BUQARI_]

I have an HD monitor and it's not an Apple/Mac and has recently been calibrated. However that doesn't mean I'm right and others are wrong or vice versa. People "see" colours very differently. Somebody posted a quiz once where you had to move different tones of similar colours around so that it moved from dark to light (simplified description) and people were amazed by the results. There have been different videos as well on the subject. You may well see red, it doesn't mean others do. If you look at both reports, they both say that pink is the dominant colour.

If you research "when does a pink sapphire become a ruby" you'll see that it very much depends where you are in the world as to your tolerance for how much red there should be and personal taste. One man's ruby is another's sapphire! In all honesty I prefer some purple in my rubies rather than pink but that's just a personal taste. Others will hate it!

Yes, I understand what you mean.

I would totally AGREE on the "Purplish Red" color you are talking about in Rubies.
I personally think "Purlish Red" is prettier than pure "Red" and/or "Pinkish Red" myself.

Here's another gemstone in my collection, "Purplish Red" Ruby;

 

[_BUQARI_]

I contacted GIA and got answer from a specialist regarding "Diffusion" on Sapphires.
"TE" = NO DIFFUSION - if there's any Diffusion it's stated at the GIA Report.
Testing for Diffusion is included in the price and GIA always test gemstones for this treatment.