Q for HK PSers. Are the protests as bad as what we hear in the US?

[Dancing Fire]

Which side do you support?. I was born in HK but haven't been back since 1982.
https://www.cnn.com/asia/live-news/hong-kong-protests-airport-chaos-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

good thread @Dancing Fire
do you have any remaining family still there?

it doesn't look good on the news and its bad for travellers
i hope it all calms down soon

 

[OoohShiny]

There's quite a bit of it on the BBC and they are being (from what I can tell) quite balanced for a change. Perhaps that's because it's not about Brexit (which they hate) or 'climate change' (which they love to bash us over the head with repeatedly), lol.

It seems to me that China basically want to run it like the rest of China - a totally authoritarian, 'quasi-capitalist' dictatorship with constant monitoring and surveillance and zero regard for any Human Rights - you must fall in line or you will be punished, which is what the HK residents fear will happen in HK if China put in place extradition to the mainland. From what I can tell, the 'Social Credit' system, undercover operatives, restrictions and monitoring of the internet, 'disappearances' of anti-government people, and blanket CCTV monitoring and facial recognition means it is effectively an open prison in many ways - basically a Panopticon (which I would argue the rest of the world is also being sleepwalked into, but that's another thread!).

HK seems to still be enjoying the freedoms it had under British rule, and which most of the rest of the world enjoys - I think the transition period before it is passed back to China entirely in administrative terms has another 20+ years to go? - but China does not like people having freedom of expression and a population that is stronger than the government, hence they are broadcasting images of armoured people carriers rolling towards HK to show they will use any means necessary to crush 'the uprising'. They have also issued a statement or response that basically said "keep your nose out, Britain, you have limited influence and no place here now".

I'm am sure that both sides are pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable during peaceful demonstration, but arguably they wouldn't need to be demonstrating if China wasn't trying to enforce heavy-handed communist rule on a (truly or at least much more) capitalist society that operates peacefully and without incident on a daily basis (as I understand it). The BBC have mentioned that perhaps HK will push to break away and declare itself a standalone state - I would personally support that if it meant greater freedoms for the people living there and limitations to China's constant creeping push to extend its influence.

I am not an expert / IMHO / YMMV / etc.!

 

[Dancing Fire]

The BBC have mentioned that perhaps HK will push to break away and declare itself a standalone state - I would personally support that if it meant greater freedoms for the people living there and limitations to China's constant creeping push to extend its influence.

The chinese government will not allow for that to happen.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

The chinese government will not allow for that to happen.

Hubs and I are speculating as to whether/when they will mow down HK. The rest of the world is watching though but I guess the question is does China care or will it march in with the tanks a la
Tiananmen Square.

 

[telephone89]

I know a few people travelling there now, and apparently it's not that bad - outside of the protest zones. The protests are well advertised, so easy to avoid. And less tourists. My friends were telling me they visited many commonly crowded parks and temples to find them completely empty.

That said, they have entirely avoided the protests. The airport ones looked like they got pretty violent, even towards tourists, which is pretty scary.

 

[Dancing Fire]

good thread @Dancing Fire
do you have any remaining family still there?

No I don't. My maternal grandmother was the last remaining family member there but she pass away in 1977.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

The idea of an independent HK sounds good. However, China still remains attached to Taiwan although it has been many yrs since Taiwan has broken with China. China holds its teeth firmly clamped.

Oh Shiny I wish people would recognize that they are in the midst of what you have called "panopticon". This is a big concern. And many do not see it as such.

Annette

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I have family there (expats) and they seem to think it's not as bad as portrayed. But I think their point of view is skewed because they are not directly involved and have an easy out option. Personally I sadly see it like @Dancingfire and @mellowyellowgirl. They will not allow ANY sign of breaking away. Too much at stake for them (Tibet, Uigurs...).

 

[dk168]

I left HK to come to UK to study in 1979 and stayed.
My parents and brother immigrated to Canada in 1987 to get away as they distrust Communist China.
My mum still has a base in HK and she goes back regularly. However, due to worsening health, she goes back less and less.
Time to sell up completely I'd say.

DK

 

[OoohShiny]

Hi,

The idea of an independent HK sounds good. However, China still remains attached to Taiwan although it has been many yrs since Taiwan has broken with China. China holds its teeth firmly clamped.

Oh Shiny I wish people would recognize that they are in the midst of what you have called "panopticon". This is a big concern. And many do not see it as such.

Annette

ANPR cameras on roads, in petrol stations, within CCTV cameras, in McDonalds car parks, in hospital car parks, in public car parks

CCTV cameras in shops, in malls, on streets, in schools, in restaurants, at drive-thrus, on public transport, in stations, on the highway

Cameras in ATMs, in phones, in tablets, in laptops, in baby/child 'educational' toys

'Dash cams' being promoted by the Police by them encouraging recordings of 'offenders' (for even the most minor transgression) to be submitted to them for prosecution

Facial Recognition in malls(!), in airports, in banks, in supermarkets (and I suspect in HSBC ATMs)

Facebook working on improving facial recognition from photos, to the point you don't even need to really be facing the camera

Fingerprint-capture by mobile telephones 'because you might forget your access code'

UK Banks and the DVLA (and other companies, I'm sure) rolling out biometric data capture through voice recognition (without always announcing it beforehand)

Amazon Echo and other 'smart' devices (including voice-activated TVs) listening to your every word and, anecdotally, sending you advertising based on your conversations

Echelon/GCHQ telephone call monitoring

Legislation enforcing the inclusion of GPS technology in every vehicle and every mobile telephone

Legislation enforcing storage of phone/text records and ANPR data for 2 years or longer

'Internet of Things' items storing your usage profiles and other data and sending it to a multitude of companies, such as automatic vacuum cleaner robots sending the layout of your home to companies in China, as research by a UK university found

DNA testing / genealogy companies charging more if you want to retain ownership of your biometric data

Anti Money Laundering laws making it impossible to pay cash into a third party account without their ID and/or a pre-printed paying-in slip

The US Government allowing 3m+ driving licence photos to be passed to facial recognition databases (!)

The UK police using facial recognition camera vans in the street and forcing those passing by to show their face and prove who they are by stopping and interrogating and photographing those hiding their face (I'm trying not to invoke Godwin's Law here, but it is hard not to...)

And so much more that I don't have time to list...


Yet people quite happily post countless face shots to social media, give up their inescapable, unchangeable biometric data through fingerprint security and voice control/recognition, use 'bargain-finding' sites that harvest your buying and browsing habits, use store loyalty cards that harvest your preferences and purchase history/habits for a tiny financial incentive...

People talk about how there's no such thing as privacy any more and we should just accept it, but I strongly disagree!!

If people lived in China, or even took the time to gain some awareness of exactly what is going on there (ref. my earlier link to Social Credit, if nothing else) then perhaps they might not be so happy to let random strangers and giant faceless companies know everything about them and be able to predict their next move before even they know it themselves.

[/rant]

 

[redwood66]

^ And the US government is able to activate or access all of these things at any time.

 

[Slickk]

I thought of this while I read your post @OoohShiny

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Hehe love it @Slick1

This is one of my favourites!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

No I don't. My maternal grandmother was the last remaining family member there but she pass away in 1977.

that's good all your family are out but sad also if that's your ancestral homeland
i worry about the people there
i remember leading up to the handover being worried for the people but things seemee to go on ok. (says i as an outsider relying on the tv news)
Now i feel guilty now not really thinking about it again until recently

 

[dk168]

When I was still in HK, it was still a British colony, and I had to have an ID card.

UK has yet to have ID cards for whatever reasons. Kind of hypocritical.

Perhaps Brexit would not have been such a mess with the Irish Backdrop had we had ID cards!

I shall stop talking about B****t now.

DK

 

[OoohShiny]

Hehe love it @Slick1

This is one of my favourites!

You will either laugh or think I'm unhinged, but the other half has a friend with Alexa things in her house - when I am round there I try to talk as little as possible because I'd rather not be added to the giant voice recognition database that I'm sure they must be running

 

[AV_]

I am afraid of what these fools are calling on ...

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I was born in China but was naturalized as American as a teenager. China’s a great place to visit. Scary place to live. :/

 

[Slickk]

Hehe love it @Slick1

This is one of my favourites!

This is hysterical and yet gave me chills!

 

[GliderPoss]

#georgeorwell1984

Look at what is happening right under our noses...

It honestly terrifies me.

 

[Karl_K]

ANPR cameras on roads, in petrol stations, within CCTV cameras, in McDonalds car parks, in hospital car parks, in public car parks

CCTV cameras in shops, in malls, on streets, in schools, in restaurants, at drive-thrus, on public transport, in stations, on the highway

Cameras in ATMs, in phones, in tablets, in laptops, in baby/child 'educational' toys

'Dash cams' being promoted by the Police by them encouraging recordings of 'offenders' (for even the most minor transgression) to be submitted to them for prosecution

Facial Recognition in malls(!), in airports, in banks, in supermarkets (and I suspect in HSBC ATMs)

Facebook working on improving facial recognition from photos, to the point you don't even need to really be facing the camera

Fingerprint-capture by mobile telephones 'because you might forget your access code'

UK Banks and the DVLA (and other companies, I'm sure) rolling out biometric data capture through voice recognition (without always announcing it beforehand)

Amazon Echo and other 'smart' devices (including voice-activated TVs) listening to your every word and, anecdotally, sending you advertising based on your conversations

Echelon/GCHQ telephone call monitoring

Legislation enforcing the inclusion of GPS technology in every vehicle and every mobile telephone

Legislation enforcing storage of phone/text records and ANPR data for 2 years or longer

'Internet of Things' items storing your usage profiles and other data and sending it to a multitude of companies, such as automatic vacuum cleaner robots sending the layout of your home to companies in China, as research by a UK university found

DNA testing / genealogy companies charging more if you want to retain ownership of your biometric data

Anti Money Laundering laws making it impossible to pay cash into a third party account without their ID and/or a pre-printed paying-in slip

The US Government allowing 3m+ driving licence photos to be passed to facial recognition databases (!)

The UK police using facial recognition camera vans in the street and forcing those passing by to show their face and prove who they are by stopping and interrogating and photographing those hiding their face (I'm trying not to invoke Godwin's Law here, but it is hard not to...)

And so much more that I don't have time to list...


Yet people quite happily post countless face shots to social media, give up their inescapable, unchangeable biometric data through fingerprint security and voice control/recognition, use 'bargain-finding' sites that harvest your buying and browsing habits, use store loyalty cards that harvest your preferences and purchase history/habits for a tiny financial incentive...

People talk about how there's no such thing as privacy any more and we should just accept it, but I strongly disagree!!

If people lived in China, or even took the time to gain some awareness of exactly what is going on there (ref. my earlier link to Social Credit, if nothing else) then perhaps they might not be so happy to let random strangers and giant faceless companies know everything about them and be able to predict their next move before even they know it themselves.

[/rant]

I used to care about that but gave up and got a bank account, a debit card and store cards and a facebook page and now rarely use cash for anything.

 

[angeljosephy]

I'm in Hong Kong and always have been, although I was only born in 1992 after you have left!

The protests are not so bad that our daily lives have been affected (we still have to go to work as usual, bummer!) but the division in society is real. All talks over meals are linked to these protests in one way or the other.

My husband and I have had many arguments regarding the acts of both the protesters and the police, and the only thing we are in agreement about is that everyone is pushing the boundaries of the law. My view is that Hong Kong is undeniably a part of China now, but China has not been uploading its promise to stay true to "one country two systems" for 50 years counting from 1997. The 50 years are due to be up only in 2047 and we have a long way to go still but China has been trying time and again to overstep and impose their ways onto Hong Kong.

My husband is only slightly pro-Chinese in that he believes that Chinese rule is something bound to happen eventually, and as long as it's good for business, he doesn't care. But I have more concerns, perhaps even superficial ones, as I am less worried about fundamental human rights (freedom of speech? random arrests of political dissenters?) but more about the daily small things (influx of immigrants leading to reduced resources such as health and education, overcrowding, questionable quality and safety of Chinese products flooding in especially food, just being plain irritated at Chinese people without manners on the streets, etc).

We have considered immigration to the UK as we can both get jobs as lawyers, we would prefer staying here if possible, as all our family members are here. I also believe that the fights are necessary, because while we are fortunate to have the means to up and leave if we wish, the majority of Hong Kong people are stuck here with no recourse.

The Chief Executive has repeatedly appealed to the public relying on economic downturn. It is undeniable that tourism has been greatly affected, as well as retail, as the locals now know to stay off the streets over the weekends as the protests can be sudden and violent. However, unfortunately for my husband and I, flat prices have stayed as strong as ever and even the protests have not allowed us an opportunity to enter into the property market despite having adequate savings.

We must admit that an independent Hong Kong can only be a dream. In addition to China's clear stance, it is unlikely that Hong Kong can survive while being entirely cut off from China. We depend too much on China for water and agricultural and food produce. Having said that, China's strong statements recently has also sparked fear that the national army will be released in Hong Kong should the protests continue, and therefore for the past week, the protests seem to have died down, especially since a number of the leaders of the protesters have been arrested in a rather high-profile manner by undercover police pretending to be protesters themselves (very controversial operation).

I think I have rambled on for much too long now! And without much direction too, LOLLLLL. In any event I'm always happy to share more if you would like to know more @Dancing Fire !

 

[OoohShiny]

I used to care about that but gave up and got a bank account, a debit card and store cards and a facebook page and now rarely use cash for anything.

The Matrix has you

 

[Karl_K]

The Matrix has you

yep.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think I have rambled on for much too long now! And without much direction too, LOLLLLL. In any event I'm always happy to share more if you would like to know more @Dancing Fire !

Hi Angel

Since you are a lawyer I have a Q for you...

We have a property in HK that we have been trying to sell for the past 4 yrs. The property belongs to my grandfather who pass away in 1969, and our lawyer in HK said because he pass away in 1969 it was still under Ching Danisty law? (is this true?) which all property would go to the son, but my mom is the only child. We have the original deed of trust here in the US but we still can't sell the property... I heard even our 55 yr old property is worth about 500K USD today.

 

[angeljosephy]

Hi Angel

Since you are a lawyer I have a Q for you...

We have a property in HK that we have been trying to sell for the past 4 yrs. The property belongs to my grandfather who pass away in 1969, and our lawyer in HK said because he pass away in 1969 it was still under Ching Danisty law? (is this true?) which all property would go to the son, but my mom is the only child. We have the original deed of trust here in the US but we still can't sell the property... I heard even our 55 yr old property is worth about 500K USD today.

Hi @Dancing Fire your lawyer is correct in that the Qing Dynasty laws were still in place when your grandfather passed away in 1969 (the Qing laws were effective up till 1972 in Hong Kong), which means that technically, only sons could inherit property. The usual way for property to pass was by adoption of a relative's son, such as the sons of your grandfather's brothers or sisters. However, if it can be shown that no such relatives were designated to inherit the property (e.g. by signing a waiver letter relinquishing their rights) and your mother is the only one with the claim to inheritance, she should be able to claim ownership of the property. The case which established this principle is rather recent though (Re Estate of Chau Kwun Sang, deceased [2019] 2 HKLRD 552) so perhaps you might want to try consulting a lawyer again. Property prices are ridiculous in Hong Kong so it might be worth it to sort out the procedures to secure a sale!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hi @Dancing Fire your lawyer is correct in that the Qing Dynasty laws were still in place when your grandfather passed away in 1969 (the Qing laws were effective up till 1972 in Hong Kong), which means that technically, only sons could inherit property. The usual way for property to pass was by adoption of a relative's son, such as the sons of your grandfather's brothers or sisters. However, if it can be shown that no such relatives were designated to inherit the property (e.g. by signing a waiver letter relinquishing their rights) and your mother is the only one with the claim to inheritance, she should be able to claim ownership of the property. The case which established this principle is rather recent though (Re Estate of Chau Kwun Sang, deceased [2019] 2 HKLRD 552) so perhaps you might want to try consulting a lawyer again. Property prices are ridiculous in Hong Kong so it might be worth it to sort out the procedures to secure a sale!

Hi Angel
Thanks from the information. The problem is both of our parents are deceased my brother,sister and me are the only living relatives left. All the documents (death certificates, etc..) that we have are at my Lawyer's office in HK. Can you help? or recommend another Lawyer who can help us?. We are holding the original deed of trust but can't sell the property....

We wanna sell this property ASAP because my brother, sister and me are getting old, and there's no chance of our childrens will be able to sell the property.

Thanks,
DF

 

[angeljosephy]

Hi Angel
Thanks from the information. The problem is both of our parents are deceased my brother,sister and me are the only living relatives left. All the documents (death certificates, etc..) that we have are at my Lawyer's office in HK. Can you help? or recommend another Lawyer who can help us?. We are holding the original deed of trust but can't sell the property....

We wanna sell this property ASAP because my brother, sister and me are getting old, and there's no chance of our childrens will be able to sell the property.

Thanks,
DF

Hi @Dancing Fire I do have someone in mind who might be able to help, he specializes in family and probate law. I just spoke with him briefly about your case over the phone (I hope you don't mind!) and he's confident that it can be done.

I am not sure whether this forum has any rules against promotion of businesses so I am wary about sending you a link to his law firm website, but perhaps you can drop him an email at his personal address (you can find this information at http://jonslawstudio.com/contact-us/; he is also a law tutor in his spare time and is very generous with offering advice especially over complicated and interesting cases like yours).

Just to give you some mental preparation that as you and your brother and sister are located overseas (I seem to remember you are based in the US but I might be wrong? not sure about the others though) a lot of courier fees might be involved but in any event the standard costs on account lawyers charge to open a case here should be no more than 6-7k USD (50k HKD), so still worth considering in view of your 500k USD property.

Good luck! Sorry for derailing this thread but I guess since it's yours, you wouldn't mind.

 

[Calliecake]

Hehe love it @Slick1

This is one of my favourites!

This really gives me the chills.