Help with ring upgrade to 4 - 5 ct diamond

[diamondlove_]

Hello everyone! I’ve been lurking on PS for a long time and am finally posting my first post. I’ve decided that I want to upgrade my engagement ring to something between 4 and 5 carats. I currently have a round brilliant stone of 2.8 carats and I’d like to stick with a round shape. When I got my current engagement ring I knew nothing about diamonds and went for a GIA triple excellent, which I thought was the best. After reading through many posts on this forum, I now know better! As I search for my upgrade, I am definitely keeping in mind the angles and proportions. However, I understand that there are multiple flavors of “ideal” round brilliants. It sounds like some people prefer the shallower crowns or 60/60 stones that are very bright and white and others prefer something that has more fire with a steeper crown. I’ve also read that some people like more splintery flashes, whereas others like bold flashes. I want to make sure I choose a stone that’s perfect to my eyes, but I just haven’t seen enough stones in person so I have no idea what I would like the best. I’ve also never seen a “super ideal” stone like ACA or CBI. I don’t live in an area like NYC or LA either where I have access to reputable vendors. Any suggestions on how I should start my process? I wouldn’t mind taking a trip to NYC to look at stones, but would vendors even carry or be willing to call in these multiple “flavors” of stones for me to look at?

 

[HappyNewLife]

I/VS2 is my sweet spot in a Whiteflash ACA, so, I suppose this one would do for me: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3840002.htm



Have you determined the color range and budget?

HPD/CBI has showrooms: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonds/diamonds-city

 

[ac117]

What is your budget so we could help you look? This is also a gorgeous super ideal option: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3988989.htm

Where are you located so we could give you some suggestions? Are you by a larger city at all? Could you go to a Hearts on Fire retailer (they're called wallets on fire for a reason so leave your $ at home!) - those are super ideal stones that you could look at. You should call in advance and ask them to have a few stones ready for you. I doubt they'll have lots of 4 and 5 carat diamonds so maybe see stones in the 2-3 carat range to at least see the cut difference.

Another option is going to look at stones at Tiffany's and making sure to take pics of the proportions of stones that you like.

 

[LLJsmom]

Call HPD which sells CBI and see if arrangements can be made for you to see a CBI diamond.

Since you are spending so much money. Make a trip to Houston to see Whiteflash and BGD in person. If I were spending that much I would only commit after having seen them with my own eyes. Then you won’t have the “which is better?” Dilemma. You’re the one looking at it. Only you can decide what flavor you like. What city are you in?

 

[diamondlove_]

My budget is somewhat flexible and I’ve looked at 4-5ct stones on James Allen and Rare Carat so I have an idea of the price ranges. I’m pretty careful about saving where I can, want something that is good value and don’t want to pay for what I can’t see. So I’m aiming for an I color and an eye clean SI1 or VS2. My current stone is an I color and it looks very white to me, so I don’t think I need to go higher. However, I’ve also read that larger stones will show color more so maybe I’ll end up going higher in color. I’ve also read that super ideals look much whiter, so perhaps I’ll be fine with a J color! My first step is really to find a place to look at stones in person so I can determine the exact specs I want.

It looks like HP Diamonds has a showroom near me so I will start there! I thought they were an online retailer, so thank you for the suggestion HappyNewLife! Ideally I would like to compare stones in the 4-5ct range so I might still need to take a trip to NY. Does anyone know of any good vendors who might be able to help?

 

[diamondlove_]

Taking a trip to Houston is a good idea LLJsmom. And I agree, I definitely don’t want to purchase without seeing stones in person, or at least being confident about what I like the most.

I’m located in Seattle and it’s interesting that jewelers here don’t really carry larger stones. I actually did go to Tiffany’s already to look and their largest stone was in the 2ct range so there were not many options to compare. Plus, I always feel super uncomfortable in a Tiffany’s store for some reason and I didn’t want to ask too many questions or look for too long :/

 

[Rpb]

IDJ.com should definitely be on your list. Call them and give them your requirements and see what they can find for you. Tell them you are looking for Pricescope standard diamonds. With the kind of budget you have in mind please do visit the super ideal vendors too. HP diamonds is probably best place to start...

 

[HappyNewLife]

My budget is somewhat flexible and I’ve looked at 4-5ct stones on James Allen and Rare Carat so I have an idea of the price ranges. I’m pretty careful about saving where I can, want something that is good value and don’t want to pay for what I can’t see. So I’m aiming for an I color and an eye clean SI1 or VS2. My current stone is an I color and it looks very white to me, so I don’t think I need to go higher. However, I’ve also read that larger stones will show color more so maybe I’ll end up going higher in color. I’ve also read that super ideals look much whiter, so perhaps I’ll be fine with a J color! My first step is really to find a place to look at stones in person so I can determine the exact specs I want.

It looks like HP Diamonds has a showroom near me so I will start there! I thought they were an online retailer, so thank you for the suggestion HappyNewLife! Ideally I would like to compare stones in the 4-5ct range so I might still need to take a trip to NY. Does anyone know of any good vendors who might be able to help?

I believe you have to contact HPD to have them ship diamonds to the nearby showroom. I doubt they have 4-5ct CBIs just hanging around

 

[ac117]

@diamondlove_ I believe someone from Seattle actually had WF and CBI ship contenders to a reputable appraiser in the area where she was then able to compare the stones herself and choose the ones she wanted. Might be a great idea instead of having to fly to different locations!

ETA: It was Drizzle - page 2 says she's in Seattle and she used a CBI retailer for the comparison:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...lor-clarity-or-compromise-cut-with-ja.235191/
And this was her follow-up thread with her comparison and her outcome: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nfinity-wf-aca-and-james-allen-gia-3x.235609/

 

[diamondlove_]

@diamondlove_ I believe someone from Seattle actually had WF and CBI ship contenders to a reputable appraiser in the area where she was then able to compare the stones herself and choose the ones she wanted. Might be a great idea instead of having to fly to different locations!

Wow! That would definitely be the most convenient. I can only choose one stone though, so I would feel bad for the vendor that I don’t buy from if they went through all that trouble... Maybe I should start by choosing the vendor I want to work with so that I can be picky about looking at a bunch of options

 

[ac117]

Wow! That would definitely be the most convenient. I can only choose one stone though, so I would feel bad for the vendor that I don’t buy from if they went through all that trouble... Maybe I should start by choosing the vendor I want to work with so that I can be picky about looking at a bunch of options

Not sure if you saw my edit so I'll post it here, as well. This is a LOT of money that you're spending. You shouldn't feel bad about seeing all of your options and going with the stone you fall in love with. It's business - not personal!

It was Drizzle - page 2 says she's in Seattle and she used a CBI retailer for the comparison:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...lor-clarity-or-compromise-cut-with-ja.235191/
And this was her follow-up thread with her comparison and her outcome: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nfinity-wf-aca-and-james-allen-gia-3x.235609/

 

[diamondlove_]

Thanks ac117!! Can’t wait to read those threads

 

[TreeScientist]

Agreed with everyone above. If I were spending this amount of money, I would definitely want to see at least one or two contenders from each of the SuperIdeal vendors recommended on this site before committing to anything. I would also call in one or two well cut non-SuperIdeals (complementary angles, light return looks decent from IdealScope and ASET images) from a vendor like IDJ so you can form your own opinion as to whether the premium on a SuperIdeal would be worth it for you.

Too much money to decide on a single stone without comparing IRL performance across a variety of options.

Please post pictures/videos if you do make such a comparison! Don't see many 5 carat diamonds on these boards, so it would be great to see a few well cut 5 carats next to each other!

 

[diamondlove_]

TreeScientist - thanks for the suggestion! I agree that I would love to look at non super ideal stones with good angles to see if I can tell a difference in performance. Especially if I can see one that is more brilliant and white versus one that is more fiery.

I’ll definitely post pics if I’m able to get all the different stones in one place to compare!

Also this would be my forever stone so I’m not too concerned with upgrade policies. I have scrawny fingers...size 3.5...so I wouldn’t want to go bigger in the future

 

[ac117]

...so I wouldn’t want to go bigger in the future

Famous last words around here

 

[TreeScientist]

(1 carat vs 5 carat)



Yeah, you're basically going to get 100% finger coverage with that. I don't think it would be possible to go bigger haha.

I would seriously consider calling in this one:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4454604

Before I get flamed by other members for recommending an IGI stone, hear me out.

1.) It's closer to a 60/60 than the typical SuperIdeal proportions, so would be a good "'tweener" if you're interested in combining both and seeing what a stone closer to a 60/60 would look like.
2.) It appears to be reasonably well cut.
3.) The color grade looks to be fairly accurate judging by the video (IGI is said to be "soft" on color, but I wouldn't call them "soft" as much as I would call them "inconsistent").
4.) Even if it was actually a GIA I color (which it doesn't appear to be in the video), it would still be about $15k cheaper than a compairable SuperIdeal.

I would contact IDJ and see if they could get IS and ASET images for this stone and also acquire it for you to view in person. Would be a good comparison diamond (along with a more "Tolk-style" non-SuperIdeal) for your "Is the SuperIdeal worth it for me" comparison.

 

[diamondlove_]

Famous last words around here

LOL maybe I shouldn’t rule out a future upgrade

 

[Gussie]

The problem with IGI is that you can't be sure what you are getting. I would have the stone regraded by either AGS or GIA before I would even consider dropping that kind of money on a stone, even at the lower price point.

 

[TreeScientist]

The problem with IGI is that you can't be sure what you are getting. I would have the stone regraded by either AGS or GIA before I would even consider dropping that kind of money on a stone, even at the lower price point.

I know IGI gets a lot of hate on here, and sometimes rightfully so due to the sloppiness of some of the IGI labs, but IGI Antwerp (where this stone was graded) is actually a fairly reputable lab and is highly respected over here in Europe. I would say most people in Europe would rank the labs (in order of trust they have in them) as GIA>IGI (Antwerp lab)>AGS>EGL>any other no-name lab. Not because AGS is an inferior lab (we all know it's not) but just because IGI Antwerp has made a name for itself as a pretty reputable organization running a lot of stones for the European market, and AGS is not yet well known over here. Lab preferences vary around the world.

And there's no better way of "knowing what you are getting" than looking at multiple stones in person and seeing which one you like the best.

Just to be safe, with IGI I assume a color and clarity grade lower than listed unless I have reason to believe otherwise (and having the diamond sent to a qualified appraiser would give you at least an indication of what you're getting), but even for an I/VS2 it's still a good price.

 

[Gussie]

Even if IGI is a respected lab in Europe, the fact that GIA is more respected is enough that I would prefer it for such a substantial purchase. I wonder why it wasn't sent there in the first place.

I agree that seeing stones in person is the best way to know which to choose. Knowing what your getting is a matter best left to the labs.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10026

cheers--Sharon

 

[TreeScientist]

Even if IGI is a respected lab in Europe, the fact that GIA is more respected is enough that I would prefer it for such a substantial purchase. I wonder why it wasn't sent there in the first place.

I agree that seeing stones in person is the best way to know which to choose. Knowing what your getting is a matter best left to the labs.

Geographic location of the stone, potential market for the stone, and grading cost probably all play a role (I'm no expert though ). You'll notice that a lot of the higher carat weight stones are graded by IGI (a much higher proportion than for the lower carat weights, where GIA dominates for the online retainers). This is in large part because they're cheaper. Labs charge for grading on a per-carat basis. So whereas the differences may not be that great for a small stone, the differences in grading cost could add up to a few thousand in really large diamonds. And if your potential market for the stone doesn't really care whether it's IGI or GIA, then the savings could translate to a lower offering cost for the stone (or more money in the wholesaler's pocket haha).

 

[carbonfan]

Wow, this sounds like quite a fun project! I want to echo what others have expressed, namely that you really owe it to yourself to see multiple stones in person before making such a significant purchase. It can be tricky to find stones in the 4-5 carat range, but here are a few ACA and CBI stones that are worthy of consideration:

4.086ct H VS2: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3988989.htm
5.198ct I VS2: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3840002.htm
5.12ct I VS2: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10026

Also, I know you specified 4-5 carats, but I would throw another one into the mix as well, simply because it is an F VS1 and (IMHO) both color and inclusions may be more noticeable in MRBs in this size range (FWIW, I personally enjoy warmer stones in smaller MRBs and in antique cuts, but for a large MRB at this price point I would vote for colorless any day of the week!). This particular stone is absolutely gorgeous, and you could easily upgrade to a larger one with Whiteflash in the future if you wished. Plus, with a size 3.5 finger a 3-carat superideal is going to look ginormous!

3.128 F VS1: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802914.htm
(As a side note, Whiteflash also has this 4.468ct F VS1 ACA in stock but it is $160k... yikes!)

Lastly, @mrs-b just completed a custom cut project with Whiteflash that culminated in an amazing 4-carat I VS1 stone. Here is a link to the photos of her new addition!

In any case, please keep us posted on this project! There are so many knowledgeable Pricescopers in this group, and if you have any questions at all you can count on the members of this community to offer a wealth of amazing advice along the way!

 

[LLJsmom]

If you go to whiteflash and Brian Gavin diamond call them before you go. Tell them what you’re looking for so they have time to bring in stones that meet your criteria. I don’t think it will be that way to find stones that fit your criteria so I don’t think you should commit yourself to a vendor yet. I think you should first view stones that meet your criteria first.

 

[blueMA]

This OP has clearly done her homework! I can't wait to see the end result.

 

[blueMA]

These are few other options to consider at the non super-ideal range - I'd ask for photo and IS images

4.43 H VVS2 https://idjewelry.com/round-bd155966.html
4.03 H VS1 https://www.fourmine.com/diamonds/index/diamonddetail/id/8825910748
4.06 G VS2 https://www.ritani.com/diamonds/rou.../D-Q3WW0J?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc (purely by the proportions that I love, ask for photos/IS/ASET and the stone will need to be vetted for the faint florescence/haziness)

Not a lot of options out there at the desired size/color range...
If your budget is of no big consideration, then it may be safest go with the super-ideal vendors such as BG, Whiteflash, or CBI

 

[mrs-b]

Hi @diamondlove_

I took receipt of my new 4.01ct ACA from WhiteFlash yesterday, and I have to say - it's fabulous! I've had 2 stones now from WhiteFlash, and I was particularly impressed with the color grading. I've seen and owned AGS graded stones in the past that have performed poorly for color compared to their GIA counterparts of the same color, so this was a major concern when I bought a large I colored stone - the grade at which side tint is generally considered to be a potential problem. (NB 'potential' - not necessarily, just potentially)

There was no issue with this one, tho, and it compared VERY favorably with the previous I colored stone I owned of a similar size. I've had large stones from Blue Nile, Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash. I liked all of them, but I would definitely place the GOG and WF stones at the top of the list.

One thing, tho, I wouldn't plan on going with an SI1 for a stone that large. Inclusions in a stone that size will normally be visible - so unless you don't mind a mark or two (and quite a lof of people don't) - I wouldn't count on the sort of savings you'd get with an SI1.

I agree with everyone who suggests you shop around. It might be a slow shop, tho, because most companies don't carry a lot of stones of that size. One path worth considering - WhiteFlash might have rough material to hand that hasn't been cut as yet. Ditto CBI. Worth asking the question.

Good luck with your search!

 

[Dancing Fire]

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/5.392-h-vs1-round-diamond-bfg-785455

 

[OoohShiny]

If you're feeling really flush, how about a 20.25ct D VVS1?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4543019
A snip at just over $3m...

Or you could drop to an M and save $2.7m!
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-1060394

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/5.392-h-vs1-round-diamond-bfg-785455

If we're spending $210k+, though, I simply HAVE to post this Asscher
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/5.02-carat-e-color-if-clarity-sku-3080284

Although this one is also lovely, the same size, and $90k cheaper!
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/4.74-carat-d-color-vs2-clarity-sku-4498202

Alternatively, there's this 10.04 J VS2 for the same money as that BGD stone / the 5.02 E IF...:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/10.04-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-4368545


Anyway, just throwing those out there as options in case the OP could be tempted away from MRBs

 

[blueMA]

Pretty sure this op sounds logical and wouldn't want to simply pay a high $ on the highest costing branded goods since she'd be content with an I colored eye clean SI 1 stone as long as it performs well.