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Help with a Ring for my Mom

amoline

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 11, 2018
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341
Hi all,

New here, and a bit afraid of what I've gotten myself into, looking at everything on the forums here. :D

I am a fine and knowledgeable buyer when it comes to wristwatches, but the world of colored stones and jewelry is new to me. I am looking for something meaningful to get my mother. She loved the jewelry (and person) of Princess Diana in the past, and that is something that has never changed about her. Her favorite stone is sapphire. Recently, my mother injured herself fairly severely in a fall, but is doing OK now. Unfortunately, the expenses from the treatment of this ate into her "jewelry savings jar," so I think I would like to find something for her myself that she can wear guilt and worry free about cost.

I had all intentions of finding a sapphire myself, and then getting it set; or, I also contacted Jeff White (who ha been an absolute pleasure to converse with). Then, I found this ring, and got to thinking that this might be an instance to obtain something that's a higher carat weight than I was otherwise looking at. I particularly love the color, at least in the seller photos.

I found the following ring, which comes with this description from the seller:
bigrock4.jpg bigrock3.jpg bigrock2.jpg bigrock.jpg

"This very fine early 20th Century sapphire and diamond ring flaunts a superb 5.10 carat oval, claw set unheated blue sapphire of remarkable brilliance at the center of a sparkling old cut diamond border. Sixteen fine quality H-I/SI antique cushion cut diamonds, together weighing an estimated 2.35 carat, form the halo. The shoulders feature a delicate pierced shank with raised center prong.

The sapphire, measuring 11.38 x 8.5 x 6.56 mm, is an unheated Ceylon beauty of rich cornflower hue, with superior brilliance and color saturation. Some natural inclusions can be viewed under 10 X magnification and somewhat with the naked eye upon very close inspection, but its liveliness and color intensity - together with the fact that it's a rare unheated stone - more than make up for a few crystalline inclusions and tiny surface pinpricks. "


I really love the way it looks. The asking price is $8,000, reduced from $11,500. Stated appraisal value, of course, is much higher than this. I have enquired for additional photos, but have already learned that there are some amazing experts here, and I would deeply appreciate the help to find my mother something nice. This seems very enticing, but if I can "do better" by searching for my own sapphire loose, I'm happy to spend time doing that - there is no urgency.

Any thoughts, red flags, etc much appreciated. - Please forgive my newness to this all. :)
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
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5,161
It's a very beautiful sapphire and a substantial size; I would have the seller order a lab report to have peace of mind regarding whether the sapphire is really untreated. To my eyes the sapphire looks untreated, but I'm not a gemologist, just someone who bought a number of sapphires. My unheated sapphire from Sri Lanka (Ceylon) looks almost exactly the same color. The color of this sapphire is lovely and the size makes it very, very rare. If not for the little inclusions it would be worth much, much more. The color will hide the inclusions somewhat, and they won't be visible from a foot or more away.

I hope your mom makes a successful recovery. Good luck on finding her the perfect ring.
 

peacechick

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
1,709
It's a very beautiful sapphire and a substantial size; I would have the seller order a lab report to have peace of mind regarding whether the sapphire is really untreated. To my eyes the sapphire looks untreated, but I'm not a gemologist, just someone who bought a number of sapphires. My unheated sapphire from Sri Lanka (Ceylon) looks almost exactly the same color. The color of this sapphire is lovely and the size makes it very, very rare. If not for the little inclusions it would be worth much, much more. The color will hide the inclusions somewhat, and they won't be visible from a foot or more away.

I hope your mom makes a successful recovery. Good luck on finding her the perfect ring.

Everything @voce said. Hope it comes back as unheated. If it comes back as heated, you’re in the position to reduce the price further.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
341
I was able to get a copy of an appraisal report from the seller, which indicated it as unheated. The report was signed by a "GIA Graduate Gemologist," which is at least comforting. Perhaps not to an AGL in depth report level, but nonetheless is reassuring I think. Having never sent anything for reporting at AGL, it certainly isn't cheap (though neither is jewelry).

Are these sorts of signed reports able to be easily trusted? Or is the AGL always preferred regardless?
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
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Dec 18, 2014
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1,653
It is beautiful, and definitely an incredible price (5+ ct. sapphire plus 2 cts of daimonds should cost more than 8 k).

But it would be good to see if they will get a gia or agl lab report for you. An appraisal from a gia graduate gemologist is not quite the same thing (while a good sign, it is difficult to ratify that this gemologist is an independent 3rd party who is unaffiliated with the jewler. So the appraisal doesnt carry as much weight.), and it sounds like you currently have the latter.
 

peacechick

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
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I was able to get a copy of an appraisal report from the seller, which indicated it as unheated. The report was signed by a "GIA Graduate Gemologist," which is at least comforting. Perhaps not to an AGL in depth report level, but nonetheless is reassuring I think. Having never sent anything for reporting at AGL, it certainly isn't cheap (though neither is jewelry).

Are these sorts of signed reports able to be easily trusted? Or is the AGL always preferred regardless?

An appraisal is not the same as a lab report. I believe only a trusted lab like GIA, AGL, Lotus or the Swiss labs can accurately test if a stone is unheated. A GIA Graduate Gemologist, while probably knowledgeable about gems, may not have the lab equipment needed to do this type of testing. Getting the lab report now will also help you down the road if you ever want to sell the ring. The worst thing is to find out years down the road when trying to sell something that it was not worth what you paid for it.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 11, 2018
Messages
341
I've asked the seller, if a local viewing ends up not going through, if they would be willing to obtain an AGL report.

I mentioned to the seller much the same - that certainly for something so highly appraised it would be useful to have an independent report

Thank you all for the already invaluable assistance.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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6,527
I would snap it up immediately.
If a GIA graduate gemologist has declared it unheated, I think you can trust that.
Obviously a formal AGL or GIA report is preferred but for $8,000 even as a “heated” sapphire, set in a beautiful ring with 2 carats diamonds, it’s a good price.
The evidence of heating (or not) in sapphires isn’t hard to detect. Under a microscope the inclusions and silk are either intact ie unheated or broken up and any other crystal inclusions will show a distinct halo. The heat treatment sort of “explodes” any crystal inclusions and it’s easy to spot in lighter toned sapphires .
With gem reports if they show evidence of heating it gets much trickier and riskier without a proper formal assessment because it requires very specialized equipment to detect some “undesirable” treatments.
If a sapphire is unheated by default it is expected to be free of any enhancements. Oiling is about the only treatment done to gems without heating but I’ve never heard of an “oiled” sapphire, emeralds, well, that’s a whole different kettle of fish.
Click on that “Buy” Button ASAP, we have watchers/ lurkers on this forum who might decide your bargain buy should be theirs!
It’s stunning.
Sending healing hugs to your Mum and kudos to you being such a loving, caring and thoughtful daughter.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
341
I would snap it up immediately.
If a GIA graduate gemologist has declared it unheated, I think you can trust that.
Obviously a formal AGL or GIA report is preferred but for $8,000 even as a “heated” sapphire, set in a beautiful ring with 2 carats diamonds, it’s a good price.
The evidence of heating (or not) in sapphires isn’t hard to detect. Under a microscope the inclusions and silk are either intact ie unheated or broken up and any other crystal inclusions will show a distinct halo. The heat treatment sort of “explodes” any crystal inclusions and it’s easy to spot in lighter toned sapphires .
With gem reports if they show evidence of heating it gets much trickier and riskier without a proper formal assessment because it requires very specialized equipment to detect some “undesirable” treatments.
If a sapphire is unheated by default it is expected to be free of any enhancements. Oiling is about the only treatment done to gems without heating but I’ve never heard of an “oiled” sapphire, emeralds, well, that’s a whole different kettle of fish.
Click on that “Buy” Button ASAP, we have watchers/ lurkers on this forum who might decide your bargain buy should be theirs!
It’s stunning.
Sending healing hugs to your Mum and kudos to you being such a loving, caring and thoughtful daughter.


Son, LOL. But thank you very much. This certainly gives me a lot of reassurance.
 

peacechick

Brilliant_Rock
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Jun 6, 2013
Messages
1,709
Why not buy it and send it yourself to AGL with the condition that you can return the ring if stone turns out not as advertised?
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2014
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Son, LOL. But thank you very much. This certainly gives me a lot of reassurance.
Oops, sorry.
Even more kudos as a guy, and you have excellent taste!
If you pay upon invoice using PayPal ie the wording “unheated” is in the invoice, you have 90 days to get a refund if you get a lab report and it doesn’t come back as “unheated”. You will be out of pocket the cost of the report, but even a cheap gem brief from AGL can tell you “heated” or not and that sufficient evidence for PayPal (the report) to accept a “not as described” return and full refund.
Though if by unlikely chance it did come back as heated, I’d negotiate for a partial refund from the seller, maybe $1,000. The ring is really lovely.
 

Shijitake

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2018
Messages
498
That's a nice sapphire. I'm a newb with no real input, but I just gotta say make sure it's the shade your mom likes. If she likes Princess Diana's ring, she might like a darker blue. Just saying. Hope she gets better soon!
 

lilmosun

Ideal_Rock
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Jun 30, 2014
Messages
2,394
It's a beautiful ring and looks like a great buy! Did you get more pictures and/or a video? I wouldn't wait too long as it seems like a great price.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
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Jun 2, 2013
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If you pay upon invoice using PayPal ie the wording “unheated” is in the invoice, you have 90 days to get a refund if you get a lab report and it doesn’t come back as “unheated”. You will be out of pocket the cost of the report, but even a cheap gem brief from AGL can tell you “heated” or not and that sufficient evidence for PayPal (the report) to accept a “not as described” return and full refund.
Alas, it's too large a sapphire to qualify for a Gem Brief. If finding out whether it is indeed a Burmese stone isn't important to you, the cost for the basic Prestige Report (identification & enhancement) is $170 for a mounted gem; here's the entire AGL fee schedule:
http://aglgemlab.com/pricelist/

I love your sweetly thoughtful and generous idea of a halo'd sapphire ring as a special gift for you mother -- she will be so touched!
 

lmyracle

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icm_fullxfull.140997694_7d1ednwksesc4ow04wo8.jpg
Just thought I'd share this with you. I almost bought it for $11K many months ago (Dec '17) but I think not having a lab cert scared me away -- but knowing what the pros have said here, coupled with the return policy mentioned above -- looks like it would be an awesome deal for $8K. At the time I don't think she had the appraisal photo listed at all, but I asked her for that too.

Believe me, I have been looking for FOREVER and you won't find unheated with this color, this size....... This was a photo the vendor sent me when I asked for outdoor lighting. Sadly I no longer have video but she'll send it to your cell if you ask. Promise I will not snag this one from you, but it does still warm my heart and I hope you get it because it is beautiful!

One thing --- and others would know more than me, I would ask about what eye visible inclusions are present. Maybe she could tell you more about them - like if they're close to the surface, if she knows -- not sure this would even matter though (maybe someone else can speak to this). I know it said that on the appraisal. Knowing the appraisal said $30K, from my newbie status and all of the hunting I've done I'd say it's a great buy! I hope your mother is doing better and best of luck! Keep us posted!
 

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lmyracle

Shiny_Rock
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I posted the appraisal I received from her in December 2017. It's not signed by anyone....I attached it so you can compare to what you were given.
 

eapj

Brilliant_Rock
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I am not a sapphire expert but I think this is gorgeous and a really, really good price. I have a much smaller sapphire in a similar color and it makes me smile.

What a wonderful son to do this for your mom!
 

Bluegemz

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2017
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Well I just love it, think it’s absolutely beautiful and am heartened by your inspiration. The stone is stunning and the setting goes so well with it.
 

minousbijoux

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think it is absolutely beautiful and a caring and very thoughtful treat for your Mom. Two things though: I'd check the inclusions since the vendor says in a roundabout way that it is not eye clean. Sometimes, not eye clean stones are fine with me, as the visible inclusions are not too big and obtrusive - like feathers or fingerprints that blend in. But sometimes, they are more noticeable and irritating, such a darker colored area or speck that you can't help but notice every time you look :eek2: This kind of inclusion drives me nuts.

The other thing, as others have said, is that you need a lab report from one of the good labs discussed above. A GIA graduate gemologist, while a step in the right direction, is not at all the same thing as a lab report and would never suffice as support for valuation.

Those two things aside, jump on that baby - as unless misrepresented, it is a gorgeous ring and good deal!
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
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38,364
Nothing to add except
1. It’s beautiful
2. Get a proper lab memo to verify it’s untreated
3. Make sure it’s eye and mind clean for you
 

marcy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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It’s a beautiful ring and great color.
 

lmyracle

Shiny_Rock
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Just lurking to see if @amoline scarfed up the ring because this one isn't for sale any longer? Maybe his Mom will be getting a pretty new bauble!
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 11, 2018
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341
An update! Before the listing went away, the seller had already told me anyway that she had a local viewing that she was committed to doing; if that fell through, I was next in line for the piece, but I have yet to hear back on whether the local viewer ended up purchasing or not.

Certainly a great value, but not all is lost if it ends up not being mine. It was a little over budget anyway, and there is no urgent rush.

But I will certainly keep everyone updated. :)
 

lmyracle

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Good to hear @amoline and please keep us posted! If it doesn't work out, there are so many lovely people here who can help you find exactly what you're looking for!
 

eapj

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gia-5-47-carat-No-Heat-sapphire-sri-lanka-ceylon-halo-ring/332506482157?_trkparms=aid=888007&algo=DISC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20131227121020&meid=2ae6b57305574274be339625ee26580e&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=292701421964&itm=332506482157&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982 Did you see this? I just saw it this morning and the price is exceptional -- you may want to look into it and get more pictures. I'm just a newb but I found my ring similar to what you're looking for and this one popped up on my eBay page.

That is beautiful!
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 11, 2018
Messages
341
Thanks so much, all! I appreciate it.

Unfortunately, an unexpected bill came today for me, which really kind of puts a damper in the ring budget - or not so much the budget, but the time. I think I will need to pass on the original one I posted about because of the price, for the time being; however, there's always the chance that it doesn't sell and I can go back later to look :)

Thanks for posting about that, @Imyracle! I do like that ring, and the price is even better than the other one! The sapphire looks a little less "clear" as compared to something like https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wFEAAOSw6TdbmR9h/s-l500.jpg (clear is probably not the official word for it), but it is certainly a big stone!

My mother is not necessarily dying to have a ring, specifically, but rather I'm just shopping around in general. :) Thank you so much for all the help, everyone.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
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May 13, 2018
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Thanks so much, all! I appreciate it.

Unfortunately, an unexpected bill came today for me, which really kind of puts a damper in the ring budget - or not so much the budget, but the time. I think I will need to pass on the original one I posted about because of the price, for the time being; however, there's always the chance that it doesn't sell and I can go back later to look :)

Thanks for posting about that, @Imyracle! I do like that ring, and the price is even better than the other one! The sapphire looks a little less "clear" as compared to something like https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wFEAAOSw6TdbmR9h/s-l500.jpg (clear is probably not the official word for it), but it is certainly a big stone!

My mother is not necessarily dying to have a ring, specifically, but rather I'm just shopping around in general. :) Thank you so much for all the help, everyone.
Sorry to hear about the unexpected bill. It's something that's put a damper on my plans from time to time, as well...and no fun.

I believe that you are talking about brilliance with your description of "clear". The sapphire you linked has definite brilliance, but also exhibits extinction (the really dark areas). You should know that unheated stones generally have a less sharply clear crystal because of hazy inclusions, and that this "not as clear" look actually commands a price premium. So if the hazy unheated look is not your cup of tea, you can save a LOT of money by buying heated sapphires that are more brilliant! Heated hazy sapphires also exist, but I hope you know that between heated and unheated stones there is a huge price difference (which increases exponentially with the carat size). This is why the $8k one you originally found, if indeed unheated, would be such a great deal.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 11, 2018
Messages
341
Thanks, Voce! For sure, unheated vs heated stones have a big price difference! -- For the original stone, there is always the chance that I may be able to pick it up again, but only time will tell. I am also looking at some aquamarines, which is my mother's other favorite stone, and certainly less expensive than sapphire in most cases.
 
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