Help with 1C

[EncikG]

First post. Been lurking for awhile. In a way, my specs are very simple.
Budget: under $7500, caret: 1ct, color: I and above, clarity: SI1 eye clean n above
Due to my locality, there is no way I can view any of the stones so have limited my options to BGD, WF ACA and CBI
However if you were to look at the inventory then there’s a few more WF aca on offer (think there’s about 4-5 stones) but a comparative stone from CBI is almost $1k more expensive.
Yet reading through the forums and I think I’ve selected and read all the WF, CBI threads, there seems to be a fascination with CBI diamonds.

Qs: is it really worth paying the premium for a CBI?

Here comes another dilemma: if there was a loose ‘second hand’ CBI diamond within your budget with all the paperwork which I could send for verification n appraisal.. and the seller was happy to give 15-20% discount to save him the hassle of sending back, but you would lose all benefits such as buyback or future upgrades .. would u do it ?

 

[Stephan]

I think with all the vendors you mentioned above, the cut will be more than ideal.
Once you go branded, you can focus on the other qualities of the diamond you are looking for (where are the inclusions located? do you want fluorescence? Do you prefer a H-SI1 over a I-VS2, etc.).
Give me BGD, WF and CBI, and with my years of experience I won't be able to tell them apart.
At this level, differences of clarity, color will be more important than difference of brand.
Especially clarity will be the deal breaker/maker with the parameters you are looking for.
And if you find no real winner, try to find with which vendor you have the best contact and trust.
Or just post the candidates here so everybody can chime in.

 

[crbl999]

All three vendors offer top quality stones. From what I've read, CBI is the most consistent in regards to that all of their diamonds perform similarly.

I have purchased two BGD Signature diamonds and they are very different from one another. Even my wife who knows nothing about diamonds pointed out the differences.

That being said if three diamonds of similar porportions and cut precision were in front of you it would be difficult to discern which stone is from which vendor.

 

[EncikG]

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10383

Sorry didn’t link the ACA’s
Being abit naive with seeing scope images, could I have some opinion on the CBI vs the conparative WF aca

So long as it’s under $7500, I’m happy to go up to a H color. But would really like it to be above 1C

 

[Stephan]

Of the diamonds you've listed, I like this one:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4061059.htm
@crbl999 : What you mention is the case with each brand, I owned more than 2 CBI and they were different too, the cut of both was ideal, but that's just the way diamonds behave. And if you look at all the 3 vendors listings, crown varies from 34 to 35°, tables between 54 and 57, so yes every diamond is different. If I had to choose between 3 flawless diamonds with perfect ASET pictures and same angles/percentages, I would look at the heart pattern to make my final decision.

 

[Stephan]

If you are open to handpicked fluorescence that can make your "I" look whiter, 2 other options:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.034-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104102020007
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.090-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104076722029
And with the same fluorescence, if you are open to J that could look whiter:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.048-j-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104102612008
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.037-j-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104103404013
Here is a big one:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.205-j-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104103404022

 

[EncikG]

@stephen thanks for the prompt reply
Appreciate your thoughts n input
For your selected choice, I was wondering if the variance here is an issue?

 

[Stephan]

It should not be an issue, I chose this one because of the clarity and the proportions. The video is nice too.
This one
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4061058.htm
doesn't have the green, yet I would choose the 1.033 over the 1.037 (proportions and clarity - personal opinion).

 

[lovedogs]

Any of those branded stones will be great. If I had the opportunity to buy a second hand CBI that had all paperwork I prob would, but not unless I was 100000% sure I wouldn't ever need the upgrade policy. I assume resold stones don't benefit from the policy, but I could be mistaken!

 

[EncikG]

I prob would, but not unless I was 100000% sure I wouldn't ever need the upgrade policy.

Thks for the reply. Yeah I think that’s the dilemma. Especially being on pricescope ....

 

[crbl999]

@stephen thanks for the prompt reply
Appreciate your thoughts n input
For your selected choice, I was wondering if the variance here is an issue?

This should be a non issue for this stone but it is best to ask WF to be sure.

Personally I would pass on that stone due to the digging; mind clean issue here. If I'm paying for a top quality H&A branded stone I prefer it to have a tighter cut with minimal painting and/or digging.

These are my picks from WF:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=4006539,4061060,4061058

 

[EncikG]

@crbl999 thanks for your WF picks
Based on that and previous reply, I’m also assuming u won’t pay up to $1k more for a CBI
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10383

 

[sledge]

Qs: is it really worth paying the premium for a CBI?

Here comes another dilemma: if there was a loose ‘second hand’ CBI diamond within your budget with all the paperwork which I could send for verification n appraisal.. and the seller was happy to give 15-20% discount to save him the hassle of sending back, but you would lose all benefits such as buyback or future upgrades .. would u do it ?

I think only you and your eyes can determine if the premium is worthwhile for a CBI. If by chance you have available cash or credit, you could purchase 3 stones from the WF, BGD and CBI and have them shipped to you for review. You could then do a comparison and determine if any of them speak to you differently.

Prior to ordering, I would make sure the stones I was comparing was relatively the same size, color, clarity and as near identical proportions as possible.

I'm not sure the person offering you a CBI with a 15-20% discount, but it makes me leery. The reason being is that CBI offers an 80% buyback policy for the life of the stone. The only way this becomes advantageous for the owner to sell to you is if he can get you to accept 15% so he can pocket an additional 5% instead of just sending it in. If you insist on 20% discount, it's a wash for the seller.

Any of those branded stones will be great. If I had the opportunity to buy a second hand CBI that had all paperwork I prob would, but not unless I was 100000% sure I wouldn't ever need the upgrade policy. I assume resold stones don't benefit from the policy, but I could be mistaken!

This is a very real issue. Recently there was a thread on here indicating how normally it's the husband that buys the ring for the wife. Many time the upgrade policies and buyback policies are limited to the original purchaser. So when a spouse dies or there is a divorce, it's possible the wife is left with a ring that can no longer be upgraded or bought back as those policies are limited with the original buyer.

HPD (who sells CBI stones) was one of that said they considered a "couple" as the original purchaser, so they would honor the policies from either the wife or husband. The situation gets more complex if the ring is passed down to kids through inheritance, etc.

By taking a 15-20% discount to get the stone via the secondhand market, you will be surrendering those policies. Should you have to get rid of the stone later on for whatever reasons, prices on pre-loved stones isn't great (much less than the 80% CBI offers). Also, if you would want to trade the stone in, you likely wouldn't qualify for that either unless they made a special arrangement for you.

The real question becomes is a $1,050 to $1,400 discount worth the benefits you give up on a $7k stone. Again, the right answer comes down to your own risk tolerance and how likely you think an upgrade might be.

 

[EncikG]

@sledge thanks for that insightful reply.
Unfortunately I do not have that kind of funds to ship all 3 stones over to view. But based on replies and past threads, I’m sure they are all great vendors selling exceptional ideal cuts.

On the issue of buyback, yes, I was thinking I could buy a CBI for wife’s enjoyment n perhaps pass to the kids later in life but as u raised, the buyback probably doesn’t apply to them. That’s a point I overlooked.

Whether I will upgrade.. lol. The engagement was 2 yrs ago and I said that’s it. But being on PS, I’m looking at another diamond now as opposed to an upgrade

 

[sledge]

You're welcome, glad I could help.

I honestly don't think you could go wrong with any of the 3 vendors you listed. I bought my fiancee a BGD stone. I've seen some ACA's in person. I have yet to see a CBI in the flesh and blood. The pics and videos I've seen indicates they should be top notch. I've read threads where some prefer ACA or CBI.

I think a lot of people enjoy the fact that CBI sources the rough and does their own cutting. They then use a distributor like HPD to push the stones to the public. Many here love HPD and Wink as they are good people, straight up. So it makes it a very enjoyable experience overall for CBI buyers.

Of course everytime we meet up with my fiancee's brother I am always eyeing his wife's OEC. Its beautiful in a different way than MRB's. Simply stated it speaks to me so if the right situation occured I'd buy my fiancee one that is similar regardless of getting the best monetary deal.

I've done similar things in the past with car purchases too. I like American muscle cars and tend to like fast and near out of control compared to fast and super awesome tight handling you get from the super sports cars.

I won't try to sway you either way but rather encourage you to follow your heart and enjoy the journey so you have no regrets.

Good luck!

 

[TreeScientist]

I think only you and your eyes can determine if the premium is worthwhile for a CBI. If by chance you have available cash or credit, you could purchase 3 stones from the WF, BGD and CBI and have them shipped to you for review. You could then do a comparison and determine if any of them speak to you differently.

Prior to ordering, I would make sure the stones I was comparing was relatively the same size, color, clarity and as near identical proportions as possible.

I'm not sure the person offering you a CBI with a 15-20% discount, but it makes me leery. The reason being is that CBI offers an 80% buyback policy for the life of the stone. The only way this becomes advantageous for the owner to sell to you is if he can get you to accept 15% so he can pocket an additional 5% instead of just sending it in. If you insist on 20% discount, it's a wash for the seller.




This is a very real issue. Recently there was a thread on here indicating how normally it's the husband that buys the ring for the wife. Many time the upgrade policies and buyback policies are limited to the original purchaser. So when a spouse dies or there is a divorce, it's possible the wife is left with a ring that can no longer be upgraded or bought back as those policies are limited with the original buyer.

HPD (who sells CBI stones) was one of that said they considered a "couple" as the original purchaser, so they would honor the policies from either the wife or husband. The situation gets more complex if the ring is passed down to kids through inheritance, etc.

By taking a 15-20% discount to get the stone via the secondhand market, you will be surrendering those policies. Should you have to get rid of the stone later on for whatever reasons, prices on pre-loved stones isn't great (much less than the 80% CBI offers). Also, if you would want to trade the stone in, you likely wouldn't qualify for that either unless they made a special arrangement for you.

The real question becomes is a $1,050 to $1,400 discount worth the benefits you give up on a $7k stone. Again, the right answer comes down to your own risk tolerance and how likely you think an upgrade might be.

Okay, regarding buyback policies. I admit, the 80% buyback of CBI stones is great... IF you're going to be selling the stone in the near future (1-10 years). In such a case, 80% is likely more than you'll get for the stone on the open market, especially since we don't know what the price of natural diamonds will do in the next 10 years with the rise of MMDs.

But let's please stop talking about the buyback policy as something that is beneficial on the long term. Because in doing so, you're forgetting these little things called inflation and compound interest. Inflation on the US dollar has averaged, what, 2% per year for the past few decades? Compounding the inflation over the last 50 years, $1000 in 1968 is equivalent to just shy of $7k today. Sure, the average near colorless 1 carat diamond that somebody purchased in the 60s for $2000 is actually kind of a ripoff in today's dollars (about $15k). But if a relative inherited such a stone today, there is no way in hell they would sell it back in to the original 1960s vendor (providing they're even still in business) for 80% of the original purchase price ($1600). They would sell it on LoupeTroop for $5k.

So no-one in their right mind would care about "inheriting" such a buyback policy when their relative passes away 50 years after the original purchase. That is, unless the market deems that natural diamonds are completely worthless 50 years from now. But seeing as how the market for natural sapphires is as strong as ever some 100 years after synthetics started flooding the market in the early 1900s, I don't think this will be the fate of natural diamonds.

So, to clear things up, buyback policies:

• Potentially beneficial in the short term if you're a cereal upgrader or you suspect divorce in the next 10 years.
• Not useful in the long term, or as potentially beneficial in an "inheritance" situation some 50 years down the line.

But with the divorce rate being north of 50% in America, maybe people are beginning to view such issues more carefully...

 

[EncikG]

@TreeScientist thks for the perspectives. I dun think I’m anywhere near divorce and as you said, let’s forget the longer term.
But reading on past threads, I believe the premium that CBI commands has partly had the generous upgrade, buybacks built into it as well as of course having an exquisite product.
By being generally new to this arena, I dun think I can pick out the differences between a WF ACA over CBI... so I think u can see where I’m going.

Just playing devils advocate, if I did picked up a second hand CBI at 15% off, with no surrendering policies and for whatever reason decided to offload it at a further 20% off on the second hand market, wouldn’t u think that a CBI diamond at 35% off a comparative be a steal?

 

[TreeScientist]

@TreeScientist thks for the perspectives. I dun think I’m anywhere near divorce and as you said, let’s forget the longer term.
But reading on past threads, I believe the premium that CBI commands has partly had the generous upgrade, buybacks built into it as well as of course having an exquisite product.
By being generally new to this arena, I dun think I can pick out the differences between a WF ACA over CBI... so I think u can see where I’m going.

Just playing devils advocate, if I did picked up a second hand CBI at 15% off, with no surrendering policies and for whatever reason decided to offload it at a further 20% off on the second hand market, wouldn’t u think that a CBI diamond at 35% off a comparative be a steal?

Yes, I do think it would be a steal, and that's mainly the point I was trying to make. The nice thing about the CBI 80% buyback policy is it sets a basement for the price of that diamond in the near term. If you're the original purchaser, then you can ask 85% of your original price knowing that if you don't get it, then the fall back is selling it back to CBI.

So I would absolutely recommend purchasing a second hand CBI at 85% of the original purchase price (have they shown you a receipt of what they paid? I would want to confirm their purchase price to be sure. And would also want a gemologist's opinion to make sure it is in original condition). Especially if you like the diamond. To me, that's just saving 15+% on a beautiful diamond, because CBI would take that exact diamond and re-sell it at likely more than the original purchase price (due to inflation in recent years).

And worse case scenario, you could take it and sell it for 20% off your price, and someone would most definitely jump on it. But I'll say that I'm wishing you a long and happy marriage, and that you won't have a reason (aka divorce) to offload it within 10 years.

 

[OoohShiny]

I don't understand the 'hassle' the seller is describing related to returning the CBI stone - surely packaging, shipping and any insurance cover will be the same whether they are shipping back to CBI or shipping to a buyer?

I would be wary...

If I wanted to take up the offer, I would request that a third party appraiser is used as a 'middle man' - @denverappraiser or @oldminer would both be able to inspect the stone, confirm its (presumably) good condition and authenticity, and act as an escrow service for the money transfer process were the stone found to be as described.

 

[sledge]

@TreeScientist, to be clear I was not advocating for a buyback policy. Nor an upgrade policy necessarily. But like it or not, buying second hand you do surrender those perks and we see plenty of situations here where people take advantage of those policies on a frequent basis. Granted the upgrade program mostly.

Life events like death, divorce, financial distress, etc are not always within our control or limited by age. Any of this could literally happen tomorrow or hopefully never.

The mere fact the OP is here after 2 years seeking a new shiny diamond tells me there is a decent probability they may upgrade or buy again in the relatively near future.

Like @OoohShiny, what gave me pause about buying the stone second hand was the statement the seller was avoiding hassle. I'm not a CBI customer but by many testaments here, hassle is not a word I associate with them. I'd echo the thought to use an intermediate neutral party to complete the transaction but this comes from years of negotiating and just learning to trust my gut when things "feel" weird.

 

[TreeScientist]

Yes, I agree, it is definitely best to have a gemologist's opinion on the stone to make sure it is in original condition (no chips or facet abrasions) prior to turning over the funds, as I said in my original post. I'm guessing that the seller is just trying to make an extra 5% on the sale if they can before resorting to the 80% buyback policy. I mean, if the purchase price was around $8K, and they are able to sell it on the market at 85% instead of 80% to CBI, then that's an extra 400 bucks in their pocket. I don't know about you, but I would never say no to someone coming up to me and handing me $400. I've seen a few CBIs listed on LoupeTroop before with basically the same storyline of the seller trying to get 85-90% of the original PP prior to accepting the 80% from CBI. And they usually go pretty quickly on LoupeTroop too...

To me, if the stone checks out upon examination by a qualified third party, then the sale would be a win-win for both the seller and @EncikG. Seller has 5% more in their pocket then they would've gotten from CBI, and @EncikG saves 15% on a CBI bought from HPD. Not to mention that private sales of used goods don't have sales tax, so there's that to consider too...

 

[crbl999]

@crbl999 thanks for your WF picks
Based on that and previous reply, I’m also assuming u won’t pay up to $1k more for a CBI
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10383

I have never seen a CBI stone in person. I most certainly would consider purchasing one, especially if it was within our budget, but would want to view the stone first.

I just recently replaced my wife's diamond and was hoping she would like to view stones from HPD, but she was pleased with her previous BGD so that's what we replaced it with. I know we could have saved some money with an ACA, but my wife was only interested in replacing her stone with what she had. As long as we were within our budget saving or spending more was not a factor for us. It was perceived value and in her case sentimental value of having another BGD.

FWIW, that CBI is an amazing stone with my preferred proportions. It would be a contender as well if it was within budget.

 

[denverappraiser]

Returning a CBI is not a matter of hassle. Outside of a bit of time at the front end to cover the inspection period for new sales, I"m pretty sure they don’t take returns for cash at all. I don’t know a single jeweler who does. They have a trade in policy if you want a different, more expensive stone, and there are some limitations on that that are explained on their website, but a flat out return for cash isn’t one of the options available. The reason to sell to a 3rd party is that they want money out of this deal, not a new diamond. The reason to sell at a discount is that they have to. There's nothing wrong with that, and yes expensive private sales are sort of a hassle, but CBIs trade up policy has nothing to do with it.

 

[TreeScientist]

Returning a CBI is not a matter of hassle. Outside of a bit of time at the front end to cover the inspection period for new sales, I"m pretty sure they don’t take returns for cash at all. I don’t know a single jeweler who does. They have a trade in policy if you want a different, more expensive stone, and there are some limitations on that that are explained on their website, but a flat out return for cash isn’t one of the options available. The reason to sell to a 3rd party is that they want money out of this deal, not a new diamond. The reason to sell at a discount is that they have to. There's nothing wrong with that, and yes expensive private sales are sort of a hassle, but CBIs trade up policy has nothing to do with it.

I'm pretty sure they do. As per HPD's website:
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-lifetime

"Upon verification of its original undamaged condition, locally and from the AGS, we will gladly repurchase it for 80% of what you originally paid."

 

[sledge]

I'm pretty sure they do. As per HPD's website:
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-lifetime

"Upon verification of its original undamaged condition, locally and from the AGS, we will gladly repurchase it for 80% of what you originally paid."

Beat me to it. Based on their policy, I'd agree -- they offer 80% cash back.

 

[denverappraiser]

That's HPD, not CBI. They have other dealers who may have different policies. Actually, the trade-up policies come from the dealers as well. As far as I know, they all have some sort of a program, but I don't think they're interchangeable. You can't buy from one dealer and return to another.

 

[OoohShiny]

That's HPD, not CBI. They have other dealers who may have different policies. Actually, the trade-up policies come from the dealers as well. As far as I know, they all have some sort of a program, but I don't think they're interchangeable. You can't buy from one dealer and return to another.

Excellent points!

This attention to detail is why Neil is so good at what he does

 

[sledge]

Excellent points!

This attention to detail is why Neil is so good at what he does

Makes sense.

What seems odd to me is you get the same price buying from HPD or other "dealers" which indicates CBI helps set retail pricing to the consumer.

Typically a cutter sells wholesale to a retailer and that retailer deems the appropriate profit margin while taking into account the expense of lifetime upgrades and buyback policies, etc. If dealer A has to sell at X price but offers more perks (which are costs to the dealer) then their profit margin is less than dealer B who sells for the same retail price but doesn't have the same perks.

Since retail is the same, the customer would prefer dealer A most likely unless proximity, etc play into it. Which then makes me think dealer A would push more volume and get a better discount on wholesale price and consequently help offset their expense of the perks. All this is contingent on some volume metric I would guess.

If any of these assumptions are true, then it would be safe to say CBI likes to protect their market value to consumers and takes proactive steps to ensure that happens. But also I'd have to assume you want your brand marketing to be equal across the board as well in regards to lifetime upgrades, buyback policies, etc so each CBI purchase is the same experience regardless of the dealer.

All this gets me back to the question of does the dealer (HPD in this case) or CBI truly mandate those policies? While it may be honored through the dealers, my thoughts are they are a requirement of agreements between CBI and each dealer.

All this is pure speculation FYI. I have no association, knowledge, etc specific to these companies.

 

[denverappraiser]

Like you, I don’t work for either HPD or CBI, but I do have a fair amount of experience with them. The CBI dealers all share access to the same general inventory so you can buy any stone in the system from any dealer in the system within logistical concerns and with a few limitations. Add-ons, like access to designers, discounted or free setting fees, and trade in policies are put on by the dealers themselves. Convenient showrooms are obviously on the dealer's dime. As far as I know, HPD is the only pure online dealer but they are available in dozens of stores about the country that carry the line. It’s not so different from most manufacturer/dealer arrangements. There are differences on the margin but, in terms of the diamond, it doesn't matter all that much where you buy. Yes, CBI has a say in setting the MSRP, and yes, the dealers stick to it, but add-ons like ‘free’ appraisals, access to designer mountings, financing, trade-in programs, and whatever else they want to toss into the soup are up to the dealers themselves. I don’t know all or even most of them and HPD has their policies published online so it’s easy to look theirs up. Others would be a bit more work but they will all have something.

80% cash on the barrelhead forever is pretty generous. I can't think of any other dealers who offer this. I have no idea if the others CBI folks will match it, but I’m confident they will be happy to discuss it with you if you ask.

 

[EncikG]

Thanks for all the replies. Learning abit more about the industry
To clarify, seller and I are in the same locality. Thus hassle being seller doesn’t need to organise shipping n insurance. Verification on my part and almost instant access to funds. Seller gets more than the 80% on the table while I skip paying import tax. It’s probsbly a good deal but fraught with uncertainties for me as I’m quite new ... as an update, seller has sold it.