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Help Evaluating This Stone

SamOhJung

Rough_Rock
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Dec 6, 2018
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Hi PS community,

I recently bought a diamond off of Bluenile before finding this site and while I'm waiting for the ring to arrive, I'm worried I didn't do as thorough of research as I should have. Bluenile has a 30 day return policy and I'm going to see how I like the stone in person. It has medium fluorescence also and I read that GIA can inflate the color to be higher than what it actually is, which makes me worried that it'll look yellow in indoor light.

In the meantime, I'm looking at stones with actual ASET image and was wondering if anyone experienced can let me know what they think of this?

https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-2.1-carat-h-vvs2-yd3469905

Thank you very much!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Can you post the gia report of the stone you purchased so we can see what you got? Flourescense is rarely an issue, especially med flour. And gia is very trustworthy, so I wouldn't worry about that either. Cut is the most important thing, so let's see how you did there and we can help you either return and do better or reaffirm your original choice!
 

SamOhJung

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Thanks lovedogs! Here is the diamond I purchased from Bluenile, the one I linked to above have almost identical angles but is a little less deep. But that identical stone from Bluenile is $4000 more than what Yadhav and enchanted diamonds listed it for...
The original one is hard to judge since I don't have an ASET so I'm wondering if you'd be able to judge the Yadhav one from the aset.

Thank you!

https://www.bluenile.com/build-your...AMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Did you run the original (and the new potential yadav) through HCA? I don't love the aset of the YADAV one because it looks like there's leakage around the table (the lighter pink "ring"). But I always have a hard time telling a bad aset vs bad angles/photography.
 

SamOhJung

Rough_Rock
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I was wondering what that lighter color ring was! The original one has an HCA of 1.4 and this one has HCA of 1.3. Both are under two by the cut proportions, but I know that's probably not enough to judge the actual performance...

Posting the ASET image of the YADAV one here for references. Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 7.42.16 PM.png
 

SamOhJung

Rough_Rock
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Also found the same stone on Enchanted, where they have a hearts and arrows image. However it only has a score of 97.2, not sure how their scoring system works...

Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 7.45.57 PM.png
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Also found the same stone on Enchanted, where they have a hearts and arrows image. However it only has a score of 97.2, not sure how their scoring system works...

Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 7.45.57 PM.png

Honestly, I think their scoring system is nonsense. Ignore it, and just focus on the images, angles, etc.
 

SamOhJung

Rough_Rock
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Yeah, I didn't understand their scoring system. But I'm just torn between the two since the blue fluorescence can give the stone a higher color score than what it actually is (so it might be in reality more yellow), and the price of the other stone is so much more on Bluenile (https://www.bluenile.com/build-your...AMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab) so I wonder if I overpaid for the first one also, plus I have no light performance images.
 

kmoro

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Yeah, I didn't understand their scoring system. But I'm just torn between the two since the blue fluorescence can give the stone a higher color score than what it actually is (so it might be in reality more yellow), and the price of the other stone is so much more on Bluenile (https://www.bluenile.com/build-your...AMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab) so I wonder if I overpaid for the first one also, plus I have no light performance images.

You can get an ASET & ideal scope from Idealscope.com if you like. ...

That Heart image shows too much cleft in the hearts.

It is possible you could have purchased the same diamond for less than BN ... but I’m not sure if we can find out after the fact. I don’t think it’s possible to assess your diamond’s performance by comparing it to others. In theory, the numbers on your diamond report mean it has great potential.

Oh and for color - GIA is considered the strictest on color .... fluorescence is thought to make lower color diamonds look slightly whiter in some cases ... regardless, with GIA H you should have nothing to worry about unless color sensitive and can easily see the pavilion in a white setting ... imo
 
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bmfang

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Fluorescence is graded under specific lighting conditions. My understanding is when GIA grade for colour, the lighting setup is in such a way that the fluorescence should not impact on grading the colour of the stone as it sits face down in the tray.

GIA H should be generally fine and quite white face up unless your significant other is very colour sensitive (and there are folks out there who are that).

Original Yadav stone looks promising, but with GIA's rounding it can either be within PS community recommended specs or it'll be out. Having said that a 34/41 angle combo should be ok as it follow the general rule of shallow crown, deep pavilion. I would however be worried if the angle combo in reality was more like 33.8/41.1 (which is possible under a GIA report due to how they round angle numbers, crown angle to nearest 0.5 degree and pavilion angle to nearest 0.2 degree).
 

Karl_K

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I was wondering what that lighter color ring was! The original one has an HCA of 1.4 and this one has HCA of 1.3. Both are under two by the cut proportions, but I know that's probably not enough to judge the actual performance...

Posting the ASET image of the YADAV one here for references. Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 7.42.16 PM.png
That ASET image has a way over bright back light making it look leaky.
This computer generated image is back light only of a perfectly cut diamond with reference angles.
Notice the light areas under the table, they are a teeny tiny amount of leakage that is nearly not measurable and all have it.
The pattern changes slightly depending on proportions.
Over bright back lighting makes it look like a problem when it is not.
The way to tell is to look at the center of the diamond.
_38946.jpg .
 

Stephan

Ideal_Rock
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The symmetry is incredible, even if the heart pattern is different than branded H&A diamonds.
This looks like a very well made diamond, with great proportions.
Gorgeous!
EDIT: this was about the Yadav diamond. The BN one seems a little less symmetric, still very nice!
 

SamOhJung

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Dec 6, 2018
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Wow! Thank you everyone for your input. The Yadav one believe it or not was the original one I was going to buy (on bluenile for 4000 more), but found the current one for a much better price. Hopefully I can exchange it and no one swoops in and takes this one!
 

Stephan

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I really hope you can return first one, this one looks so perfect!
And there is no fluorescence needed for a H color. hvvs.png
 

sledge

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In regards to your concern about the color, an H will be acceptable to a fairly large group of people. If you or your fiancee are color sensitive, you may be able to see a slight tint. If you aren't aware, color is graded by flipping the diamond upside down and looking at the side or pavilion portion of the diamond.

Consequently, when you look at a face up view (top of the diamond) they generally appear more white. However, if you have a setting that exposes the pavilion you have a higher risk of seeing more tint, assuming you are sensitive to slight variations.

Also, I might add that many here believe that GIA is more strict on color grading. I have seen instances where it would be easy to agree with that statement but also you have to remember:
  • Color grading is done by humans, so it's very subjective by that pure definition.
  • Color grades should be thought of as a range, and not an exact criteria.
  • As you go down in color, the variation in that range grows. As a result, we hear things like "high H" meaning almost G or "low H" meaning almost I.
  • Per GIA and AGS standards, both labs consider 1 +/- grade in color and clarity to be acceptable and accurate. Again, because both C's are graded by humans and subjective in nature.
  • GIA uses a master set of stones to grade diamonds against. As they have multiple locations, there are multiple sets. Consequently, other labs like AGS utilize a GIA master set to grade color. This a good thing, but while great measures are taken to ensure each master set is near identical, they are not 100% identical and so some minor variations exist between master sets.
The element you are most worried about is fluorescence. As others have noted, the majority of stones do not exhibit negative characteristics (transparency issues such as a milky or hazy appearance). However, you always need to ask about this and check it for yourself to be sure. As both BN and Yadav are drop shippers, there is not a true "vetting" process to check for this potential problems and when asking the question you may get a "yeah, yeah it's okay" type response from the supplier.

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/fact-checking-diamond-fluorescence-myths-dispelled/

I bought my fiancee a BGD Blue stone. It has medium blue fluor and an H VS2. I have no transparency issues or ill effects from the fluor.

Also, some people believe that blue fluor can help whiten a stone a little. It makes sense as the blue offsets the yellow tint. But this assumes you have blue fluor (other colors do exist) and that your stone has a yellow tint (not brown, grey, etc). It's been my personal experience with my fiancee's stone that I cannot discern a color difference (or enhancement) because of the fluor level. Depending on specifics, YMMV.

One element that isn't always discussed is that during the color grading process, fluor may affect the assigned color grade. The reasoning is fairly simple. The light bulbs GIA uses to grade have UV in them to emulate daylight conditions and it's possible the fluor could be temporarily activated and consequently create a false reading where the stone might appear slightly whiter than if the stone wasn't flourescencing.

https://www.gia.edu/gia-faq-analysis-grading-ultraviolet-light-grading

IMO, if you aren't suffering from transparency issues I don't see fluor as bad. One advantage is that stones with fluor should trade for less money than stones w/o fluor. So theoretically if two identical stones existed but one had medium fluor and the other had none/faint then that MBF stone should cost less money than the none/faint stone.

If there isn't a cost savings present, or one that isn't significant then I'd choose the stone with the least amounts of fluor as it would appear to be a better buy (again, assuming all other factors are identical).
 
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lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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That ASET image has a way over bright back light making it look leaky.
This computer generated image is back light only of a perfectly cut diamond with reference angles.
Notice the light areas under the table, they are a teeny tiny amount of leakage that is nearly not measurable and all have it.
The pattern changes slightly depending on proportions.
Over bright back lighting makes it look like a problem when it is not.
The way to tell is to look at the center of the diamond.
_38946.jpg .

This is really helpful, thanks! Can you expand on what you mean about "the way to tell Is to look at he center"? I have a really hard time comparing aset images on here, especially cases like this where I suspect photography/lighting might be making it looks bad when it's actually fine.
 

Karl_K

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This is really helpful, thanks! Can you expand on what you mean about "the way to tell Is to look at he center"? I have a really hard time comparing aset images on here, especially cases like this where I suspect photography/lighting might be making it looks bad when it's actually fine.
basically you look at the inner circle under the table, green in this case.
The lighter areas there becomes your basis for leakage see arrow, anything lighter than that is some leakage anything around that is not.
Then you have to mentally shift it, the dots at the ends of the stars are normal but significant leakage for the basis of the other end.
Looking at the patterns makes it easier, see how the white areas line up with slight variations in shape.
It makes it harder when the center is green.
. PM.jpg
_38946.jpg
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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So does that mean the circled (in black) area (which is lighter and looks to my non-expert eyes like leakage around the table) isn't actually leakage? And you can tell bc of how light the center of the stone is? It's so hard for me to learn all of the tips and tricks to "reading" ASET/IS images, because there's so much variation in how the pics are taken. This is incredibly helpful!
PM.jpg
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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So does that mean the circled (in black) area (which is lighter and looks to my non-expert eyes like leakage around the table) isn't actually leakage? And you can tell bc of how light the center of the stone is? It's so hard for me to learn all of the tips and tricks to "reading" ASET/IS images, because there's so much variation in how the pics are taken. This is incredibly helpful!
PM.jpg
Correct. The circled (in black) area is not leaky.
In addition, I would like to add that the ASET scope is not held correctly either.
I would not say the ASET is poorly taken. But the stone is much better than what it appears in the ASET image.
 

lovedogs

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Correct. The circled (in black) area is not leaky.
In addition, I would like to add that the ASET scope is not held correctly either.
I would not say the ASET is poorly taken. But the stone is much better than what it appears in the ASET image.

If I'm comparig the aset OP posted to the ones on this chart (for reference), it looks to me like the "above average" ones. How do you tell that it's a matter of lighting/angle vs being less than ideal? That's where I keep getting stuck when trying to "read" these.

Thanks!


Screenshot_20181218-092139_Chrome.jpg
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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With a better back light and perfectly aligned it would look very close to the bottom row, left side on the chart.
There are a lot of little things to look for to see if it is the image or the diamond.
Back lighting is one, covered above.
Tilt is another, look at the arrow shafts, longer looking arrow sifts point to the direction of tilt.
How far the diamond is in the scope, this is the really hard one, basically stuff that should be green is red and stuff is blue should be red if it is to far into the scope. They shift the other way if its not far enough into the scope.
The other is alignment issues and the only way to really learn that is to get a ASET scope and play with it.
Really if you want to learn it get one and play.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Ok.... this chart.
Above Average-Very Good
1. the backlight is too bright. the diamond is tilted to 12 oclock direction. That's why you see alot of light pink under the table overall and especially at 10, 11 and 12 o clock. The diamond has no significant digging, yet see some greens around the edges, and on some crown facets where there should not be. The ASET scope is possibly positioned in correctly.
2. I agree. It is a above average GIA ex.
3. Again, the back light is bright. the ASET is possible positioned incorrectly. It is not as poorly taken as #1.
4. Oh boy... the same as #1 but 2x worse...

#1,#3, #4 are alot better stones than how they appear.

The ASET OP posted as the exact issues. Greens around the edge when there is no significant digging, green table reflection from 41 PA, strong backlight, irregular sized arrows. These are signs that the ASET scope is not positioned correctly, the diamond is tilted, and poor backlight control.
 
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Karl_K

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I forgot to mention a big one, look at the numbers and see if the image makes sense.

Use @ name to ask for help.
When asking for help asking specific technical questions about the image helps trade members being able to answer.
 

SamOhJung

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Dec 6, 2018
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Wow guys! I am overwhelmed by the support and help!

@Karl_K , @flyingpig , @lovedogs , it's eye opening how what would be commonly perceived as light leakage is actually just poorly taken image.

@sledge , thank you for all that information! I am not necessarily worried about the fluorescence, in fact, I think it's actually a really cool trait. I'm just a little concerned about the color under indoor lighting if the fluorescence indeed affected the grading. Also, given that fluorescence is not a blocker, what are your thoughts on the cut differences between the two? I know it's difficult to tell since the one I purchased doesn't have ASET or hearts & arrows image. They have the same crown (34), pavilion angle(41), table (56), crown depth (14.5), pavilion depth(43.5) but girdle is 4% vs. 3.5% and depth is 62 vs 61.4. This might be nit picking, but will there be big performance differences between the two?

first is the one I purchased, second is the Yadav
Screen Shot 2018-12-06 at 8.25.36 PM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-18 at 6.39.54 PM.png

@Stephan, thank you! But I was wondering how you can judge the symmetry differences by looking at the two face up?
This is the one I bought from bluenile
Screen Shot 2018-12-18 at 6.42.51 PM.png
vs. Yadav one:
Screen Shot 2018-12-18 at 6.43.18 PM.png
 

Karl_K

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Ear rings anyone? Probably cut by the same cutter.
 

Karl_K

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Also found the same stone on Enchanted, where they have a hearts and arrows image. However it only has a score of 97.2, not sure how their scoring system works...

Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 7.45.57 PM.png
That's not the heart image of either of the stones.
The heart image is of a stone with 81% lowers where these are around 76.
 

SamOhJung

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If they're both cut by the same cutter, then the one I purchased should perform (light) the same as the one with the secretly good but at first look bad aset image right? :twirl:
 

flyingpig

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@Karl_K That image was taken from enchanted site for the same Yadav stone https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R210-17919437Z?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

They've just put something completely different on there?!o_O
This listing is messed up. Something is not right about the actual photo. I do not think the numbers can yield such large table reflection and contrast.
I am lost. I don't know which image belongs to which stone now, and which stone we are talking about .It's all messed up.
 
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