Feedback on fluorescence

[86boy]

hi all,
New to this diamond thing, looking for an engagement ring.
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...-color-if-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5943877

I am not too fussed about the fluorescence(I actually prefer the blue...) but wanted to know everyone’s thoughts on this. Mainly due to it being a D does anyone thinks the fluorescence is causing a milky/cloudy in this diamond?

Thanks in Advance!

 

[OoohShiny]

Strong and Very Strong Blue fluor can on occasion cause issues with milkiness, but they have to be inspected in person (by the vendor representative and/or the buyer, or a qualified Appraiser) to really check for sure.

IIRC the chances of it being an issue range from single-digit percentages to maybe 20-30% in VSB stones.

One thing to bear in mind is that resale value of fluor stones is lower than non-fluor stones, especially in colourless (DEF) stones (but then original purchase prices are also lower) - if you are considering upgrading/selling-on in the future, you should be aware of this.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

A good overview of diamond fluorescence can be found here:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence

 

[sledge]

I'm not bothered by fluor. Bought my fiancee a stone with MBF. However I believe stronger levels of fluor in F+ stones are not as commonly accepted.

That said, if I was going to pony up for D IF and the premium associated with that I probably wouldn't want SBF. I'd be none/faint on GIA or negligible on AGS.

The above is just my personal viewpoint.

If you take the gamble, I'd want the stone thoroughly inspected to ensure no negative effects exist.

 

[TreeScientist]

I'm not bothered by fluor. Bought my fiancee a stone with MBF. However I believe stronger levels of fluor in F+ stones are not as commonly accepted.

That said, if I was going to pony up for D IF and the premium associated with that I probably wouldn't want SBF. I'd be none/faint on GIA or negligible on AGS.

The above is just my personal viewpoint.

If you take the gamble, I'd want the stone thoroughly inspected to ensure no negative effects exist.

This. I know that fluor doesn't always have a negative effect on diamond appearance, but it is much more likely to have a negative effect in colorless diamonds. And in a D stone, where there is no nitrogen-induced yellow light formation to cancel out the blue fluor, it is probably something that would have a visible effect on the diamond in direct sunlight, giving the diamond a slight blue tint. Whether you perceive this as a negative is entirely based on your opinion, but it's something to consider.

Is the ring for you or for your SO? I'm not sure if Fluor is something that you or your SO are specifically after. After all, many people find it to be a fun party trick. If this is the case (being that you or your SO are fluor fans) then this diamond may be a good choice. But with SBF in a D color, I would want this to be checked out by an independent, qualified diamond appraiser while you are still within the return period to confirm that the fluor is not causing any milkyness/haziness issues.

But if you're not specifically after the fluor effect and are just looking to save money, then fluor is the last place I would be looking to cut corners on a high color and clarity stone. IF clarity, while certainly nice, is overkill in an MRB of this size. In the sub 2-carat range, you can easily find a VS1 that is completely eye clean without any transparency issues whatsoever.

If it were me, and I was given the choice between a D/IF with SBF and a D/VS1 with no fluorescence, I would choose the D/VS1 in a heartbeat. The VS1 clarity is, in 99.99% of cases, not going to negatively impact visual appearance whatsoever, whereas the SBF has a fairly high likelihood of negatively impacting visual appearance, at least to a certain extent, in a D color diamond.

 

[TreeScientist]

In terms of alternatives, this is one diamond that I would recommend:
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.62-ct-E-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42894914?

As far as color and clarity are concerned, it would be darn near impossible to tell an E/VS1 from a D/IF. While this diamond has a bit lower carat weight than the first diamond you posted, the D/IF has a lot of weight hidden in the girdle (4% girdle) so the face-up size is basically the same between the two diamonds (7.60X7.64 for the D/IF vs 7.58X7.62 for the E/VS1). This E/VS1 has no fluor, so no potential haziness/milkyness issues like with the D/IF. And to top it all off, it's $6k cheaper than the D/IF!

 

[86boy]

This. I know that fluor doesn't always have a negative effect on diamond appearance, but it is much more likely to have a negative effect in colorless diamonds. And in a D stone, where there is no nitrogen-induced yellow light formation to cancel out the blue fluor, it is probably something that would have a visible effect on the diamond in direct sunlight, giving the diamond a slight blue tint. Whether you perceive this as a negative is entirely based on your opinion, but it's something to consider.

Is the ring for you or for your SO? I'm not sure if Fluor is something that you or your SO are specifically after. After all, many people find it to be a fun party trick. If this is the case (being that you or your SO are fluor fans) then this diamond may be a good choice. But with SBF in a D color, I would want this to be checked out by an independent, qualified diamond appraiser while you are still within the return period to confirm that the fluor is not causing any milkyness/haziness issues.

But if you're not specifically after the fluor effect and are just looking to save money, then fluor is the last place I would be looking to cut corners on a high color and clarity stone. IF clarity, while certainly nice, is overkill in an MRB of this size. In the sub 2-carat range, you can easily find a VS1 that is completely eye clean without any transparency issues whatsoever.

If it were me, and I was given the choice between a D/IF with SBF and a D/VS1 with no fluorescence, I would choose the D/VS1 in a heartbeat. The VS1 clarity is, in 99.99% of cases, not going to negatively impact visual appearance whatsoever, whereas the SBF has a fairly high likelihood of negatively impacting visual appearance, at least to a certain extent, in a D color diamond.

I am trying to gather all the info i can.
But from what i can understand - sometimes SBF will impact the visual appearance and sometimes not at all?
Or is it a spectrum - where the stronger the fluor. the more it will impact ?
I mean we are talking about rule of thumb but is it possible SBF has no impact on visual appearance at all (comparing two identical diamonds, only diff is fluor).

 

[coda72]

It is possible that SBF will have absolutely no impact on visual appearance, however, you (or a trusted vendor) would need to look at the diamond with SBF under various lighting conditions in order to determine this.

 

[kmoro]

I am trying to gather all the info i can.
But from what i can understand - sometimes SBF will impact the visual appearance and sometimes not at all?
Or is it a spectrum - where the stronger the fluor. the more it will impact ?
I mean we are talking about rule of thumb but is it possible SBF has no impact on visual appearance at all (comparing two identical diamonds, only diff is fluor).

Yes, sometimes it affects the diamond’s appearance (hazy or milky) and sometimes not at all - it all depends on the particular diamond - and the stronger the fluorescence, the more likely it is to affect appearance. In a lower colour stone, there are cases where the fluorescence will make the diamond look a bit whiter ... in a higher colour stone, there is no desire for colour boost and so no fluorescent effect is wanted (but could still be preferred).

You will not see a difference between two identical diamonds, except one has flourescence, unless they are in UV light. However, the world is full of UV light.

If you think of it this way, the question is: if the diamond has flourescence, what can be the positive effects? The answer is that sometimes it can make a diamond look whiter; therefore, this positive effect is lost on a high colour diamond. The other positive is that it may be a personal preference for a diamond that glows in UV (some find it pretty, for example). Then, what can be the negative effects? The answer is that sometimes it can make a diamond look hazy or milky.

So, when shopping sight unseen, it is better to avoid fluorescence, especially in a high colour diamond. If you can have the diamond examined to rule out any negative effects, fluorescence can offer a price break and/or enhance the colour of a lower coloured diamond, or meet the preference of the buyer (I once bought a diamond because it had a beautiful and more unusual pink fluorescence in the days before synthetic diamonds were marketable).

No one can tell you if the diamond you chose is hazy or milky from fluorescence unless it is specifically examined for that effect in person by someone who knows what to look for.

A note regarding clarity ... clarity is graded at 10x ... even IF stones have inclusions at higher magnification. For this reason, VVS is considered virtually flawless ... so if you’re going for high clarity for symbolic or mind-clean reasons, VVS is very close to IF. In terms of what you can actually see or the effect of inclusions on performance, you can shop around for even lower clarity to save money with no effect on real life appearance. Similarly, you can go down in colour from D without being able to see any difference with your eyes.

Are you looking for help finding a stone? If you post your wants and budget, we PSers love to shop and follow people on their journey!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I am trying to gather all the info i can.
But from what i can understand - sometimes SBF will impact the visual appearance and sometimes not at all?
Or is it a spectrum - where the stronger the fluor. the more it will impact ?
I mean we are talking about rule of thumb but is it possible SBF has no impact on visual appearance at all (comparing two identical diamonds, only diff is fluor).

This is an important question that you ask (my bold above). Many suggest the impacts of fluorescence are binary - yes or no. To me, that way of looking at it has never conformed with logic or with my experience as a gemologist.

It is true that below a threshold value the impacts are negligible in normal viewing light. The stronger the fluoro is the more likely it is to have impacts. This alone speaks of a continuum or 'spectrum'.

It is important to bear in mind that both negative (transparency deficits) and positive effects (color whitening) can only happen in lighting environments where sufficient UV is present, in sufficient intensity, to stimulate fluorescence. Since few real life lighting environments meet those requirements, both the concerns, and supposed benefits surrounding fluorescence, tend to be overstated.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

...Since few real life lighting environments meet those requirements, both the concerns, and supposed benefits surrounding fluorescence, tend to be overstated.

This is an important point that will hopefully be considered as more and more people enter this thread with advice.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hate to dredge up old debates- but 40 years of working with many fluorescent diamonds, of all colors, and degrees of fluorescence has shown me that there are many times when fluorescence can be activated. This point was never settled- after threads of 20+ pages- and I am not the only tradesperson who had the same experience.

Since few real life lighting environments meet those requirements, both the concerns, and supposed benefits surrounding fluorescence, tend to be overstated.

 

[Rockdiamond]

what can be the positive effects? The answer is that sometimes it can make a diamond look whiter; therefore, this positive effect is lost on a high colour diamond.

Not always. A small percentage of colorless ( D-E-F) diamonds are actually improved by Medium or even strong fluorescence. Sometimes they can actually look Blue.
Such stones sold at a premium when I first started in the trade, at Harry Winston. They were called "Premier".
Mind you that was many years ago- before the invention of the wheel.

Kidding about the wheel part- but it was a time before the prevalence of GIA reports.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

Hate to dredge up old debates- but 40 years of working with many fluorescent diamonds, of all colors, and degrees of fluorescence has shown me that there are many times when fluorescence can be activated. This point was never settled- after threads of 20+ pages- and I am not the only tradesperson who had the same experience.

Another important point to be considered!

I just knew the mention of fluorescence could get this thread really cookin' !

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Hawk,
Are you trying to be an instigator?

There are epic threads on the forum with debates on the science of fluoro and whether or not indoor lighting can stimulate the effect. Readers of the forum can search those out if they are so inclined.

They should be warned however, they will have to wade through a lot of noise.

 

[MarionC]

Scientific proof that indoor lighting excites atoms.




I was indoors when I used my UV flashlight...
that counts, right?

 

[Rockdiamond]

LOL!!!
Great pic Jimmianne

Totally non-scientific, but do you notice any whitening indoors?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Scientific proof that indoor lighting excites atoms.




I was indoors when I used my UV flashlight...
that counts, right?

Yes it does...

VSB


Med blue

 

[Texas Leaguer]

LOL!!!
Great pic Jimmianne

Totally non-scientific, but do you notice any whitening indoors?

From the looks of it her stone is experiencing 'purpling'.

It is a very cool pic!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Yes it does...

VSB


Med blue

Whoa! DF. You can see the high optical symmetry in your step cut in the fluorescence patterns. That is WAY cool.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Whoa! DF. You can see the high optical symmetry in your step cut in the fluorescence patterns. That is WAY cool.

It was mine. I sold the ring last yr. The RB belongs to my daughter.
Here's another fluor shot of the stone.

 

[MarionC]

From the looks of it her stone is experiencing 'purpling'.

It is a very cool pic!

TL, Thanks!

Rockdiamond, I don’t know if it’s whiter indoors. I suppose it would depend in the wave length of the light source (???) I’ll observe it more «intentionally scientifically » for fun this week.

 

[AV_]

(D-E-F) Sometimes they can actually look Blue.

I keep imagining that some subtle, scattering graining is involved in this; could it be?

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

Thanks for posting that in the thread DF! Very cool.

 

[Rockdiamond]

TL, Thanks!

Rockdiamond, I don’t know if it’s whiter indoors. I suppose it would depend in the wave length of the light source (???) I’ll observe it more «intentionally scientifically » for fun this week.

This is an essential component of why I feel we can’t truly get a “scientific” answer to the question of how much whitening takes place - unless it’s in a clinical setting.. Unless you can completely eliminate any sort of natural light - yet still have enough brightness to be able to observe slight color differences in the diamond- it’s not possible to dissect the exact amount of UV.

 

[Karl_K]

To see if uv had any effect would have to be lighting that you can observe body color and not light return.
Then you have to have a reference to make sure your not just seeing a difference in color temperature.
Then if your in your kitchen and you actually cook in short order your lights are going to be yellowish.

 

[MarionC]

Sounds an impossible task compounded by the viewer’s eye. I have a warm eye and a cool eye and assume it’s the same for most humans, and also assume we each see color differently so we would have to have a consensus.
Also to be considered: does the color appear to be different after a cocktail?
Translation: when is the Get Together?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sounds an impossible task compounded by the viewer’s eye. I have a warm eye and a cool eye and assume it’s the same for most humans, and also assume we each see color differently so we would have to have a consensus.
Also to be considered: does the color appear to be different after a cocktail?
Translation: when is the Get Together?

We should meet at the bar in the Plaza Hotel at 6
Seriously- these are great points. At Winston, only women did the color grading ( like I said, this was a long time back- that wouldn’t fly today) But the feeling was that women had better color sensitivity. Without a doubt some people have a greater ability to perceive small differences in body color. I have observed this countless times over the years when showing diamonds to clients.
I am lucky- even though I’m a guy, I can differentiate between a D and an E.
Which is why I need to trust my eyes in discussions like this. I don’t know exactly how much UV there is in a given place- but I do know I see color change in many situations where the sun is not shining directly on the diamond.
I’ve seen the blue in “Premier” colorless stones many tines.
If I’m late please order me an Apple Martini

 

[OoohShiny]

Sounds an impossible task compounded by the viewer’s eye. I have a warm eye and a cool eye and assume it’s the same for most humans, and also assume we each see color differently so we would have to have a consensus.
Also to be considered: does the color appear to be different after a cocktail?
Translation: when is the Get Together?

That's a really interesting comment - I find that my eyes' 'colour temperature' changes depending on what I've been looking at before - e.g. things look warmer if I've been looking up at a blue sky, but things look cooler if I've been indoors in candlelight beforehand.

And I can make one eye different to the other if I close one eye and leave the other open!

 

[kmoro]

Not always. A small percentage of colorless ( D-E-F) diamonds are actually improved by Medium or even strong fluorescence. Sometimes they can actually look Blue.
Such stones sold at a premium when I first started in the trade, at Harry Winston. They were called "Premier".
Mind you that was many years ago- before the invention of the wheel.

Kidding about the wheel part- but it was a time before the prevalence of GIA reports.

Not always. A small percentage of colorless ( D-E-F) diamonds are actually improved by Medium or even strong fluorescence. Sometimes they can actually look Blue.
Such stones sold at a premium when I first started in the trade, at Harry Winston. They were called "Premier".
Mind you that was many years ago- before the invention of the wheel.

Kidding about the wheel part- but it was a time before the prevalence of GIA reports.

@Rockdiamond - thank you for that - clearly, I was unaware ... I guess I’m still not clear on how flourescence can “improve” a D-E-F colour diamond ... can you please elaborate? You have mentioned that “sometimes they can actually look Blue,” but how is that a good thing?

Please know that am genuinely curious and not trying to argue anything here!