Eleven Year Old Arrested For Refusing To Say Pledge of Allegiance

[AGBF]

This made my blood boil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/11-year-old-arrested.html

 

[KKJohnson]

Sounds like that school might have bitten off more than they can chew with is. Teacher also needs to lose her position, she wasn't willing to hear anything else other than her own opinion and did not do her duty as a teacher.

 

[JPie]

Well, that escalated unnecessarily.

 

[ksinger]

What happens when you pay regular teachers low wages, and when you pick up the slack from the teaching exodus with crappy subs who are paid even less. This should have never happened. What she did would enrage many adults, and she was supposed to be the adult in the room after all. So the brunt of the whole deal rests on her, IMO. But he NOT arrested for "not saying the pledge". Mouthing off and making threats in front of cops when they've got hold of you is always dicey.

"The episode unfolded on the morning of Feb. 4 at Lawton Chiles Middle Academy in Polk County. The boy, who had refused to stand for the pledge the entire school year, had a substitute teacher that day who confronted him when he did not join his classmates.

“Why if it was so bad here he did not go to another place to live,” the teacher asked the boy, according to a statement issued by the teacher and obtained by Bay News 9, a news station in St. Petersburg, Fla.

According to the teacher, the boy, who is black, responded, “They brought me here.”

The teacher wrote that she replied, “Well you can always go back, because I came here from Cuba and the day I feel I’m not welcome here anymore I would find another place to live.”

She then called the school’s administrative offices “because I did not want to continue dealing with him,” according to her statement.

A school resource officer with the Lakeland Police Department eventually responded to the classroom and arrested the boy...
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Polk County Public Schools said its student body code of conduct allows students not to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance if they have written authorization from a parent. The substitute teacher was not aware of that policy, the district said. <---- This is by far the most telling, that this school still has a rule that kids MUST say the pledge unless they can get out of it with a parent's note. I guess no one has the time or means to take them to court over that little hang-over from 1950.
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The Lakeland Police Department said in a statement on Sunday that the boy was not arrested for refusing to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance but on charges of disrupting the classroom. The school resource officer and the dean of students “attempted to calm the student down” in the classroom, asking him to leave the room over 20 times, the police said.

“The student left the classroom and created another disturbance and made threats while he was escorted to the office,” the police said. “This arrest was based on the student’s choice to disrupt the classroom, make threats and resisting the officer’s efforts to leave the classroom.”

 

[AGBF]

But he NOT arrested for "not saying the pledge". Mouthing off and making threats in front of cops when they've got hold of you is always dicey.

In a just society with just laws there would be a "fruit of the poison tree" rule that applied to police and arrests. If police responded to a call for an unjust arrest and harassed someone unjustly, the resulting trouble from the person would not be criminal. It would be the result of the poison tree.

AGBF

 

[telephone89]

But he NOT arrested for "not saying the pledge". Mouthing off and making threats in front of cops when they've got hold of you is always dicey.

The boy, who had refused to stand for the pledge the entire school year, had a substitute teacher that day who confronted him when he did not join his classmates.

She then called the school’s administrative offices “because I did not want to continue dealing with him,” according to her statement.

A school resource officer with the Lakeland Police Department eventually responded to the classroom and arrested the boy...

The Lakeland Police Department said in a statement on Sunday that the boy was not arrested for refusing to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance but on charges of disrupting the classroom. The school resource officer and the dean of students “attempted to calm the student down” in the classroom, asking him to leave the room over 20 times, the police said.

“The student left the classroom and created another disturbance and made threats while he was escorted to the office,” the police said. “This arrest was based on the student’s choice to disrupt the classroom, make threats and resisting the officer’s efforts to leave the classroom.”

They called the school resource officer because he was sitting. He hasn't stood for the ENTIRE year, and yes, the sub wasnt aware of the policy. But this person literally called the "school police" on the kid, and THEN he made a scene. Why was he being asked to leave class because he wouldn't stand for the pledge? Why does that deserve someone calling school cops on you? Yes, he should not have made a scene and threats after this (which is what allegedly the arrest was for), but the whole thing was blown so far out of proportion from the start.

 

[House Cat]

I would like to know his threats in his exact words. Short from threatening to kill the police officers, this seems totally unjustified.

Wtf is wrong with that teacher? She was speaking to the boy as if he were an adult. She made it seem as if he had some kind of power over where he lived. Of course he grew enraged when she played the sick game she did. I hope she learns how it goes in this wonderful country when adults choose to bully children. I hope she finds herself unemployable.

 

[ksinger]

In a just society with just laws there would be a "fruit of the poison tree" rule that applied to police and arrests. If police responded to a call for an unjust arrest and harassed someone unjustly, the resulting trouble from the person would not be criminal. It would be the result of the poison tree.

AGBF

Now that is getting into another topic entirely. And that's fine if we go there, but I was pointing out that saying the kid was arrested for not saying the pledge is just flat out misleading, and dare I say it, wrong.

 

[AGBF]

I would like to know his threats in his exact words. Short from threatening to kill the police officers, this seems totally unjustified.

Hell, you are a lot more ready to punish this kid than I am. I think the adults should be punished. An eleven year-old unarmed boy who threatened to kill all the policemen with his bare hands wouldn't bother me none. Not that I heard he did that. He's a kid. If he did say that, after all the provocation, I'd say he was justified. As long as the kid didn't have a gun!

 

[ksinger]

They called the school resource officer because he was sitting. He hasn't stood for the ENTIRE year, and yes, the sub wasnt aware of the policy. But this person literally called the "school police" on the kid, and THEN he made a scene. Why was he being asked to leave class because he wouldn't stand for the pledge? Why does that deserve someone calling school cops on you? Yes, he should not have made a scene and threats after this (which is what allegedly the arrest was for), but the whole thing was blown so far out of proportion from the start.

No argument with any of that. It shouldn't have happened. But he still wasn't arrested for not saying the pledge.

 

[AGBF]

I'm just angry. I don't mean half of what I am writing. They should have called the school social worker. If s/he were worth half her meager salary she would have calmed the kid down in 15 minutes. But this is Florida. They probably have one social worker for every thousand schools since they probably don't value education or children or social workers.

AGBF

 

[Tekate]

Made mine too Deb. I grew (and probably you too) saying the pledge, our dad's, granddad's, uncles somebody fought in WWII (WWI also in my case). I understand the love of our country and the pledge, but then I went thruthe 60s, then I found out the priest that I really loved in high school because he liked me as a person was a pedophile, then I found out how black Americans, Puerto Ricans (when I moved to the Bronx), Jews, were all treated and I didn't feel the same about the pledge, I think of one does not feel a part of America and stands for truth, justice and the American Way in todays worrld, they may have a hard time saying and believing in the pledge. my .02 on a soon to be snowy evening.

This made my blood boil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/11-year-old-arrested.html

 

[Tekate]

This kid doesn't feel as though he's part of the school, probably has other problems, I think ksinger is totally correct in saying he wasn't arrested for not saying the pledge, but the teacher should be fired for making an issue about a kids right to sit for his opinion. Total blunder by the sub, school and the kid in a way, but he is only a 6th grader.

 

[AGBF]

Made mine too Deb. I grew (and probably you too) saying the pledge, our dad's, granddad's, uncles somebody fought in WWII (WWI also in my case). I understand the love of our country and the pledge, but then I went thruthe 60s, then I found out the priest that I really loved in high school because he liked me as a person was a pedophile, then I found out how black Americans, Puerto Ricans (when I moved to the Bronx), Jews, were all treated and I didn't feel the same about the pledge, I think of one does not feel a part of America and stands for truth, justice and the American Way in todays worrld, they may have a hard time saying and believing in the pledge. my .02 on a soon to be snowy evening.

Yes, we had similar backgrounds, Kate. Not similar family lives, but similar backgrounds in that we were middle class, white Americans in Fairfield County, Connecticut. And, as you said, we both had many relatives who had, as a matter of course, and just like everyone else, served in the army during World War II (which was not long before we were born). The 1950's was a pretty traditional time and it sounds as if we were pretty traditional kids. I never questioned that we said the Pledge and sang a patriotic song every morning in public school. (Heck, I never questioned that we had a Christmas Pageant when I was in elementary school or that we sang Christmas carols. This was public school, remember.)

That changed by the early 1960's, however. I was open to new ideas that made it my way from the Civil Rights movement and the anti-war movement (against the war in Vietnam).

 

[redwood66]

It was wrong of the teacher but still not an excuse for the kid to act like an ass.

 

[Slickk]

It was wrong of the teacher but still not an excuse for the kid to act like an ass.

This! I teach this age, I chose my battles. This is one issue I would not force. But the boy also took it too far it seems. This age group (tweens) is rough. Ask any middle school employee.

 

[House Cat]

So children should be arrested for acting like asses?

 

[Slickk]

So children should be arrested for acting like asses?

Not arrested but there a should be consequences which often are lacking these days.

 

[House Cat]

Not arrested but there a should be consequences which often are lacking these days.

The boy was provoked by an adult that was behaving inappropriately.

I guess the message is that children should never ever stand up for themselves.

 

[redwood66]

The boy was provoked by an adult that was behaving inappropriately.

I guess the message is that children should never ever stand up for themselves.

By all means stand up for yourself but don't extend that to being belligerent. If you are belligerent enough that the school cop thinks you are out of line, then you are out of line.

 

[Slickk]

The boy was provoked by an adult that was behaving inappropriately.

I guess the message is that children should never ever stand up for themselves.

I really wasn’t going to respond to this as you likely have not spent a day let alone years in an inner city school with middle schoolers. Please don’t assume you know my message. I have spent my adult life trying to make a difference In my students’ lives. Have a great night!

 

[missy]

This is a terrible situation and of course one should be allowed to not say the Pledge of Allegiance.
But it is not OK for the child to make threats and disrupt the class if that in fact is true. In fact in the climate in which we live today threats need to be taken seriously. I do not know the details of those threats and find the news info that made it sound like he got arrested for not saying the pledge of allegiance to be egregious. It seems factual news is rare these days and all that the media cares about are their ratings.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/11-year-old-arrested.html

On Monday, Polk County Public Schools also said in a statement that the student was arrested after becoming disruptive and refusing to follow repeated instructions by members of the school staff and law enforcement. But the school district added that it did not “condone the substitute’s behavior” and had not asked for the boy to be arrested.

And of course the substitute teacher showed poor judgment but that does not excuse the behavior of the child. IMO.

 

[missy]

I really wasn’t going to respond to this as you likely have not spent a day let alone years in an inner city school with middle schoolers. Please don’t assume you know my message. I have spent my adult life trying to make a difference In my students’ lives. Have a great night!

@Sandeek thank you for all you do in making a difference in your students lives. I know that you have improved many students lives and they are lucky you are there for them.

 

[telephone89]

The boy was provoked by an adult that was behaving inappropriately.

I guess the message is that children should never ever stand up for themselves.

You mean sit down Or kneel...

 

[Slickk]

@Sandeek thank you for all you do in making a difference in your students lives. I know that you have improved many students lives and they are lucky you are there for them.

Thank you so much Missy It just warms my heart to hear a student tell me I was, “literally her favorite teacher of all time.” It also makes me so proud when a special ed student I had is soon off to college for engineering. This is my reward.
But, sometimes, disadvantages and detrimental situations and influences at home are just too difficult for even the best to overcome. I’ve seen fits of rage in school that are seriously frightening. So while I agree the teacher definitely went too far, so apparently did the student.

 

[AGBF]

I have taught middle school (as well as high school). It is better not to poke children with electric cattle prods if you don't want them to act belligerent. Why not call in the social worker who can probably stop the situation from accelerating to threats or potential violence? If the social worker can't manage on her own, she will at least have calmed it down so that the authorities who need to be called can be called. And sometimes they must be called.

A girl (not provoked by her teacher) I knew in one special ed class broke a window with her bare arm. The school's director calmly called 911. The girl was bound up gently with bandages, and later charged by the police. That's a professional way to deal with actual violence by a student.

AGBF

 

[missy]

I have taught middle school (as well as high school). It is better not to poke children with electric cattle prods if you don't want them to act belligerent. Why not call in the social worker who can probably stop the situation from accelerating to threats or potential violence? If the social worker can't manage on her own, she will at least have calmed it down so that the authorities who need to be called can be called. And sometimes they must be called.

A girl (not provoked by her teacher) I knew in one special ed class broke a window with her bare arm. The school's director calmly called 911. The girl was bound up gently with bandages, and later charged by the police. That's a professional way to deal with actual violence by a student.

AGBF

Yes it was not handled in the smartest way. Mistakes were made. When humans are involved there will often be mistakes unfortunately. This substitute teacher was clearly in the wrong.

And in any case it seems as if the boy will not be charged and the case against him dropped.

On Tuesday, Brian Haas, the state attorney for the 10th Judicial Circuit in Florida, which handles cases in Lakeland, said that his office would not prosecute the boy despite statements by the police that he had made threats after disrupting class. “The case is closed,” Mr. Haas said.

 

[House Cat]

I really wasn’t going to respond to this as you likely have not spent a day let alone years in an inner city school with middle schoolers. Please don’t assume you know my message. I have spent my adult life trying to make a difference In my students’ lives. Have a great night!

So strange for you to assume where I’ve been. I grew up in a crappy, poor suburb of Oakland, CA. Aside from growing up in Oakland itself, you can’t get more inner city than that. I’ve seen too much and lived through too much because of that area.

I am not going to assume anything about your life. What you do is amazing.

Should there be consequences for the boy? Yes. I don’t believe he should have been arrested. I don’t believe he should have been humiliated for standing up for something he believes in.

Should there be consequences for the teacher? Yes. If you know anything about teaching a volatile and sensitive population in an inner city, you know that this teacher should have known better than to treat a boy with this background in this way. Would you? Would you take a boy who comes from poverty and violence and intentionally provoke him for your own personal sport? Do you believe that is the intelligent thing to do? In my school, our teachers had a healthy respect for the student’s background and their short fuse. They accepted the reality of their student population and they worked with it.

It is my belief that this teacher should have known better much more than the boy. It is also my belief that the rest of the adults should have known better and helped the boy, rather than backed a teacher who was clearly in the wrong.

 

[cocotate]

It seems everything is so strange and weird to you. Look up gaslighting. You probably never taught rough middle schoolers is what Sanders meant.

Growing up during the good old days amongst inner city kids doesn’t compare at all to what brave teachers today have to deal with. The article mentioned that the boy made threats and been disruptive, and was asked to leave the room over 20 times. There’s nothing wrong standing up for what you believe in but certain level of conformity should be expected of the citizens enjoying the security and benefits of this nation. You don’t want someone disrupting your theater experience because someone believes in dancing naked in front of a movie screen do you?

 

[ksinger]

I find it interesting that so many people want cops in the schools to protect people (and presumably that means all people, the young AND the old, and the pleasant AND the a-holes), and then get all bent out of shape when they act like cops. You don't get things both ways. You get cops or social workers, you virtually never get both in one person. So, we can argue whether or not it was appropriate that the officer was called, but he was. Once the officer was called and took over, what the school did or didn't do correctly, became irrelevant. The officer responded to the situation AS an officer. And if, as the piece indicates, the kid did resist going to the administrator's office (likely where they were headed after he left the room with the cop) and started tossing out threats, both of those generally are arrest-level actions: he is resisting a police officer and threatening someone's safety. I guess if he physically threatened the sub in the hearing of the officer, he's just supposed to go, "Oh, well, he's ONLY 11 after all, nothing could possibly happen." Um, not likely. Something was said, something that probably couldn't be ignored. Maybe he threatened another kid. Maybe it would it be OK that the officer arrested him then? Would anyone want him to say "He's only 11" and let it slide in that situation?

And about that "he's ONLY 11" plaint? My husband relates that the only kid who deliberately hit him was a middle school kid. At the high school, he also saw a 5' tall kid - on the FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL - start to aggressively move in on a 5' 10" 200 lb officer (kid backed down when the officer whipped out his baton).

More recently, at our nephew's school, (elementary) where my husband did a few days of volunteer work, he was stunned that all of the teachers who were watching over lunch, either did not see (so much for "teacher eyes") or did not know what to do, so did exactly NADA while a kid who was probably borderline SED was kicking the crap out of another kid at lunch. They were clearly not prepared or willing to do much. So my husband being male and an old high school fight breaker-upper, stepped in between the pummeler and the pummelee, at which point the kid ran out of the building and headed for a busy street. It was pretty much a CF, and yes, LE was called.

So some kids can get very out of control. And sometimes it isn't even someone else's fault. Go figure.

His take? Kids in middle school are insane. High school students can be, but generally? Nah. He hated teaching middle school with a burning passion. There was never a happier day than when he finally got back into the high school.

And for the record, my husband has recently retired from teaching. The powers that be are destroying public education here, selling it to the highest bidder, and he decided that after 22 years, he was neither willing to watch the agonizing death, nor let it cause his own from stress. So he left.