Diamond Advice

[WallaForPM]

Hi everyone,
My partner and I are looking at engagement rings/ diamonds and need a bit more guidance analysing different stones.

The minimum specifications (based on the James Allen website) are:
Shape: Round
Cut: Ideal
Colour: I
Carat: 1.5 (But would not oppose in the 1.4 range)
Clarity: VS1, I understand many VS2 stones are also eye clean but because we are inexperienced I think this is the safest option.
Price: $12,000 - $13,750 AUD/ $8,700 - $10,000 USD

I prefer the James Allen website, again because we are inexperienced and I find the the visuals of the diamonds really helpful. I have dark (Indian) skin, and the local jeweller said I could compromise colour because colourless diamonds would reflect off my dark skin. We live in rural Australia, so its not really viable to go to many stores and try rings on and look at diamonds, but I was able to try on a few just to determine which size I liked. I found the 1 carat too small on my finger (Australia M 1/2 or US 6 1/2), and the 1.5 carat was fine, they did not stock anything bigger. The diamond will be in a white gold or platinum, solitaire, 6 prong ring.

Just wondering what your thoughts or critiques of these diamonds are, so I can get a better understanding.

1. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-i-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6082290
This one is IF, which I don't think is necessary but it just so happened to be the case. The depth is 58.80% which I think is lower than usual, but it looks like this would make the diamond appear bigger. The cut is still excellent so I was not sure if it would detract from it's shine too much?

2. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5853658
This is outside our ideal budget (which could be increased), and also a J colour.

3. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6053125

4. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5885804
This is below our rough budget, but we would be more than happy with that outcome.

5. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-6032870
This is an I but to me it looks more yellow than some of the others.

6. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5369122
This is a H.

7. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5910312

We are definitely open to compromising the minimum specifications based on your suggestions. I can't help but want the largest looking diamond, but I understand that the other Cs are incredibly important in regards to making sure the diamond actually looks good.

 

[cottoncandy]

I like tables that are 57% max. Better if it’s closer to 55%.

My favorite is the 4th one.

1. No!
2. Not bad
3. No
4. My favorite
5. No!
6. No
7. “Steep deep” Don’t go any higher than 62.2 in depth.

 

[lovedogs]

I wouldn't go with any of these. #4 has an IGI cert, which is a hard "no" for most of us. Stick with GIA/AGS stones only, and look for stones within the following specs:

Table: 54-57
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown: 34-35
Pavilion: 40.6-40.8

Along with this you'll need an ASET to confirm light performance, and to run stones through the HCA tool (see "tools").

I would strongly recommend looking at other websites recommended here, and opening your search to VS2, as they are all going to be eye clean .

 

[WallaForPM]

Okay will take that on board.
Is Blue Nile a better website to use? I put in the same search criteria and all the options were more expensive which is hopefully reflective of better diamonds?

Would you please be able to give me 1 or 2 recommendations with the following minimum guidlines, so I know what to look for in the future:
Cut: Ideal
Colour: I
Carat 1.4 but preferably at least 1.5
Clarity: VS2
Grading: GIA or AGS
Cost: Less than $13,750 AUD/ 10,000 USD

 

[foxinsox]

Blue Nile, James Allen are drop shippers who also have stones in house. So no, BN’s higher prices aren’t indicative of better quality stones.
There’s a ‘cheat sheet’ set of specs that will help you in searching to get a generally good performer when you’re buying without a lot of supporting stuff like IS and ASET.
It’s
54-57 table
60-62.4 depth
34-35 crown
40.6-40.9 pavilion
75-80 LGF
You want to make sure the crown and pavilion compliment each other. 35/40.6 or 34/40.9.
Any that you find, use the HCA calculator (https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca). Discard the ones that score more than 2 and you should have a good performer.

 

[WallaForPM]

Oh okay thanks for the heads up. I’ll use that checklist and see what I can find and check back.
Before I do, is Whiteflash also a dropshipper?
Is there a website you’d recommend?

 

[tyty333]

Whiteflash is not a drop shipper. They own all their stones and can look at the stones and answer any questions you may have.

JA and BN do not own all their stones but will call in the stones that they do not own (once you purchase it). The stones will be delivered to
BN or JA before it gets sent out to the buyer. I dont like using the term drop shipper because that implies
(to me) that the stones are being sent directly from the owner of the stone to the individual who purchased
it when in fact they are going to JA or BN. Its more complicated then that (and I dont try to understand
it all) but I hope you get my point.

 

[sledge]

I just wrapped up a pretty intensive week working on a $120m project with some 24 hour runs. Waking up now but will take a look and find you something.

Short version. Cut is king. JA,BN and WF are all good vendors. WF is like the Mercedes of the group. Within the I and J color ranges you see more variance as you indicated already so its helpful if the stones can be pulled and analyzed against one another by human eyes.

Also on clarity, be open to SI1 or better. You get more bang for the buck and we won't let you buy rubbish. Think of it this way, many SI1's will be eye clean and most VS2's are eye clean. By eliminating you are pushing price up or other C's lower and paying for clarity that requires a scope to appreciate. All assuming you dont have super human vision or cultural reasons for VS1+.

 

[lovedogs]

Here's an example of a super ideal stone from WF. It's J color, SI1 clarity, but eye clean and will face up whiter than other J colored stones due to the ideal cut.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022605.htm

 

[lovedogs]

If you are willing to be in the 1.4ct range, here's another super ideal option.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-di...70293.htm?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

 

[sledge]

Here's an example of a super ideal stone from WF. It's J color, SI1 clarity, but eye clean and will face up whiter than other J colored stones due to the ideal cut.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022605.htm

If you are willing to be in the 1.4ct range, here's another super ideal option.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-di...70293.htm?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

Both of these are great examples of another very real point when buying diamonds....magic carat weights. They exist throughout the spectrum but the major one you are contending with is the the 1.5 carat magic weight. Stones measuring slightly less like the 2nd option @lovedogs presented will cheaper not only because it's less weight, but also because the base price per carat is higher on a 1.5+ carat stone than one that measures 1.4 carats.

For instance...

• $10,059 wire price / 1.53 carats = $6,598 per carat
• $9,161 wire price / 1.442 carats = $6,353 per carat

As you can see here the price jump isn't considerable. But as your color & clarity increases, so will these variances.

Also, it's a good time to introduce stone measurements vs stone weight. I personally feel it's silly to buy a diamond based on carat weight because 3 main variables determine weight: length, width and depth. The equation to determine approximate carat weight of a round stone is: L x W x D x 0.061. FYI, this is per GIA in case anyone is wondering.

My point is that depth helps determine overall carat weight and a factor that is not seen by anyone oogling over your ring. What does matter is the length & width dimensions. If you look at these two stones in particular you will notice the following:

• 1.53 carats = 7.36mm (L) x 7.41mm (W) x 4.55mm (D)
• 1.442 carats = 7.25mm (L) x 7.28mm (W) x 4.49mm (D)
• Overall there is roughly a 0.10mm difference between the L & W dimensions
• 0.10mm = 0.0039 inches, which is equal to about 1/256th of an inch in the US imperial system

What this means in real life is that you will barely be able to notice a size difference when comparing the stones side by side in real life -- if you can even notice at all. Most humans can't detect a difference until around the 0.20mm mark.

And if the stones were otherwise identical, you'd notice no difference if the stones were introduced to you at different times because the size difference is just too minimal to really matter. I say this with a grain of salt -- some people suffer from "mind size" issues meaning if there cert doesn't say 1.5 carats then it's somehow not 1.5 carats and that makes it less/worse in their head. I don't suffer from that disease and would personally take the better value stone that has the best cut & color. If it just so happened the 1.53 carat was that stone, then that extra weight and minimal size increase is just a bonus.

 

[bmfang]

Hi OP, another Aussie chiming in here. Whiteflash are probably the cheapest super ideal vendor amongst those that we here on the PS forum recommend.

Their stones are top notch in terms of cut quality. Others you also may wish to do a comparison search on are Brian Gavin Diamonds and High Performance Diamonds.

Not all GIA XXX are equal. Most of us on here have a preference for AGS Ideal stones (the proportions for AGS Ideal are a small subset of the very very wide GIA Excellent cut grade).

 

[WallaForPM]

Woah! Thanks so much for all your advice everyone
If it were me buying them I'd just go straight ahead and buy that 1.53 carat stone. My partner is purchasing it and wants to make it somewhat of a surprise. He's not tech savvy at all so I don't think would be able to post on here, but I think I can relay my understanding of the ideal measurements you've mentioned. I might also shoot through a number of links with nice stones so maybe he could pick from those and it would still be a surprise.
Before I do that, I'll run that past you guys (and I'll also send him the the 2 posted by lovedogs)

1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986352.htm
This one has all the measurements everyone mentioned but is smaller than ideal.

2. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4001980.htm
Same as above.

3. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4055674.htm
This one has the right depth and table but it doesn't have the other information.

4. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970293.htm
All the measurements seem to be in the right ranges.

5. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4021081.htm
This only has the depth and table listed.

6. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4039727.htm
Only has depth and table listed. It's significantly cheaper than the others.

7. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4054328.htm
Only depth and table listed.

8. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4054322.htm
Same as above.

There's a lot more but this is getting pretty overwhelming (I thought knowing the 4Cs was adequate but obviously its a lot more complex)

Alternatively, if you had a 10k budget to buy a diamond with my general specs what would you get? Happy to lower /raise whichever specs you think. Mostly just insistent on it being round.
My favourite so far would definitely be the 1.53 carat one linked by someone earlier, but just looking at other options incase its gone by the time my partner is ready to purchase.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Hi, Whiteflash have their “in house” stones (called A Cut Above, Expert Selection and Premium Select) and they also have “virtual” stones which I am assuming they have to call in.

For all of the stones you’ve posted you can see the certificate on the page so you can see all the angles and inclusion plots.

I think the price must be incorrect on that G Si1.

 

[bmfang]

With Whiteflash, I really would only recommend purchasing their in-house stones (ie ACA, ES and PS stones). Would not bother searching through virtual inventory at all.

 

[Matilda]

this is a helpful website to visualise size difference/finger coverage of stone:

https://www.diamdb.com/compare/1.53ct-round-7.36x7.41x4.55-vs-1.4ct-round-7.25x7.28x4.49/

plugged in 1.53 ct VS 1.44 ct on size 6.5 US size

 

[WallaForPM]

Where is the certificate located? I’m on mobile so perhaps that’s why I can’t see it


Thanks Matilda! I had a look at that earlier this week which is why I knew I didn’t want to go any bigger than 1.5 ct, because at that size it takes a substantial size increase to notice a different (IMO)
I can’t even notice a difference between 1.4 and 1.5 but just figured it would alleviate the thought of ever needing to upgrade in the future

 

[Snowdrop13]

Where is the certificate located? I’m on mobile so perhaps that’s why I can’t see it


Thanks Matilda! I had a look at that earlier this week which is why I knew I didn’t want to go any bigger than 1.5 ct, because at that size it takes a substantial size increase to notice a different (IMO)
I can’t even notice a difference between 1.4 and 1.5 but just figured it would alleviate the thought of ever needing to upgrade in the future

Just under the diamond photo it says “diamond certificate”, you click on the the words.

 

[WallaForPM]

Cool thanks so much

 

[Matilda]

Where is the certificate located? I’m on mobile so perhaps that’s why I can’t see it


Thanks Matilda! I had a look at that earlier this week which is why I knew I didn’t want to go any bigger than 1.5 ct, because at that size it takes a substantial size increase to notice a different (IMO)
I can’t even notice a difference between 1.4 and 1.5 but just figured it would alleviate the thought of ever needing to upgrade in the future

yeah I completely agree with you on size difference or lack of!! glad I don't just have terrible eyesightalso as 1.5 and up price starts to increase exponentially by sticking to a tiny bit below you could make enough room in budget to get a setting which makes the diamond seem bigger, such as a halo...

 

[Matilda]

oh if you are looking at at diamonds on other sites such as blue nile/ James Allen when searching CLICK ON ADVANCE OPTIONS/FILTERS...then plug in the CHEAT SHEET NUMBERS for depth, table , etc...

example

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?pt=setform&track=NavDiaSeaRD

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/

 

[sledge]

Thanks Matilda! I had a look at that earlier this week which is why I knew I didn’t want to go any bigger than 1.5 ct, because at that size it takes a substantial size increase to notice a different (IMO)
I can’t even notice a difference between 1.4 and 1.5 but just figured it would alleviate the thought of ever needing to upgrade in the future

LOL going 1.4x or 1.5x carat isn't going to satisfy the upgrade beast when it gets hungry. My guess is the next size bump is a 2 carat+ in either scenario.

Nice thing about buying from certain vendors is it makes upgrading easy. I know on the initial purchase its hard to think or know what the future holds and how sentimental value means so much. The reality is life changes and our desires and viewpoints change as well. Its nice to have the option available.

 

[WallaForPM]

Awesome thanks so much for that! Will have a look at that too

oh if you are looking at at diamonds on other sites such as blue nile/ James Allen when searching CLICK ON ADVANCE OPTIONS/FILTERS...then plug in the CHEAT SHEET NUMBERS for depth, table , etc...

example

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?pt=setform&track=NavDiaSeaRD

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/

 

[WallaForPM]

Haha I’m a PE teacher here in Australia so I think 1.5 ct is all I could comfortably wear everyday (personally)
I’m sure I’ll look for upgrades in the form of earrings though...

LOL going 1.4x or 1.5x carat isn't going to satisfy the upgrade beast when it gets hungry. My guess is the next size bump is a 2 carat+ in either scenario.

Nice thing about buying from certain vendors is it makes upgrading easy. I know on the initial purchase its hard to think or know what the future holds and how sentimental value means so much. The reality is life changes and our desires and viewpoints change as well. Its nice to have the option available.

 

[sledge]

Haha I’m a PE teacher here in Australia so I think 1.5 ct is all I could comfortably wear everyday (personally)
I’m sure I’ll look for upgrades in the form of earrings though...

I understand and totally respect that. My fiancee works with lots of children and families in crisis so she wasnt comfortable with a huge rock either. Initially I wanted to get her a 2 carat stone. She was thinking a 0.5 carat stone. I compromised at just a hair under 1 carat which i think was good for both us. At this point it seems unlikely she will want to upgrade anytime soon as she is very happy with size, plus the sentimental type so if an upgrade does come into play I will likely be starting over.

However, based on the many women here who upgrade differently I would say my situation is definitely in the minority.

 

[WallaForPM]

Sorry Sledge, one last question. I misread your reply last time and thought you said "It just so happened that the 1.53 carat was that stone" [regarding which stone is better value]. I now realise you didn't say that, and instead said "If it just so happened..."
So, I'm just wondering which you think is the better option? I know the 1.44 stone is better value in terms of price per carat, but is anything else at play in this specific comparison? They have the same colour, cut and clarity and beyond that I don't know enough about diamonds to compare them.

Both of these are great examples of another very real point when buying diamonds....magic carat weights. They exist throughout the spectrum but the major one you are contending with is the the 1.5 carat magic weight. Stones measuring slightly less like the 2nd option @lovedogs presented will cheaper not only because it's less weight, but also because the base price per carat is higher on a 1.5+ carat stone than one that measures 1.4 carats.

For instance...

• $10,059 wire price / 1.53 carats = $6,598 per carat
• $9,161 wire price / 1.442 carats = $6,353 per carat

As you can see here the price jump isn't considerable. But as your color & clarity increases, so will these variances.

Also, it's a good time to introduce stone measurements vs stone weight. I personally feel it's silly to buy a diamond based on carat weight because 3 main variables determine weight: length, width and depth. The equation to determine approximate carat weight of a round stone is: L x W x D x 0.061. FYI, this is per GIA in case anyone is wondering.

My point is that depth helps determine overall carat weight and a factor that is not seen by anyone oogling over your ring. What does matter is the length & width dimensions. If you look at these two stones in particular you will notice the following:

• 1.53 carats = 7.36mm (L) x 7.41mm (W) x 4.55mm (D)
• 1.442 carats = 7.25mm (L) x 7.28mm (W) x 4.49mm (D)
• Overall there is roughly a 0.10mm difference between the L & W dimensions
• 0.10mm = 0.0039 inches, which is equal to about 1/256th of an inch in the US imperial system

What this means in real life is that you will barely be able to notice a size difference when comparing the stones side by side in real life -- if you can even notice at all. Most humans can't detect a difference until around the 0.20mm mark.

And if the stones were otherwise identical, you'd notice no difference if the stones were introduced to you at different times because the size difference is just too minimal to really matter. I say this with a grain of salt -- some people suffer from "mind size" issues meaning if there cert doesn't say 1.5 carats then it's somehow not 1.5 carats and that makes it less/worse in their head. I don't suffer from that disease and would personally take the better value stone that has the best cut & color. If it just so happened the 1.53 carat was that stone, then that extra weight and minimal size increase is just a bonus.

 

[AV_]

These are something else:

1.4 F - VS2 WWW not round

1.5 E - VS2 WWW a round brilliant with proportions more typical for old stones - that have their own following around here (short & broad lower girdle facets, deepper). HCA is not terrible, enough for me to want to see more. Florescence is one more detail to talk about.

Just a thought or two

 

[WallaForPM]

Ooo thanks for these! I especially like the second one. I think I understand what fluorescence is but still unsure as to whether it is undesirable or not. Is strong fluorescence not good for this diamond?

These are something else:

1.4 F - VS2 WWW not round

1.5 E - VS2 WWW a round brilliant with proportions more typical for old stones - that have their own following around here (short & broad lower girdle facets, deepper). HCA is not terrible, enough for me to want to see more. Florescence is one more detail to talk about.

Just a thought or two

 

[bmfang]

The second one to me looks like a MRB trying to be a Old European Cut. Very high CA and only very good cut grade by GIA would cause me to pass on that stone. It does have very nice fat arrows (lower girdle percentage more likely to be under 75% than marginally above).

When the vast majority of GIA graded stones on the market are graded with an Excellent cut grade, buying very good isn’t worth it IMO.

As for fluorescence, most Aussie jewellers are likely to tell you that fluorescence is not a good thing to have. In reality, it is a good thing (blue fluorescence may help to mask yellow tint in lower colour grades) and as the market tends to discount stones with fluorescence, you save money too. For examples of beautifully cut stones with fluorescence, I’d check out Brian Gavin Diamonds Blue range.

For example, https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.360-h-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104100653073

Unfortunately nothing really within your price range there but it is good to look at to see how fluorescence doesn’t usually result in a diamond appearing hazy or milky. Of course, buying from a dropshipper like James Allen or Blue Nile means you have a bit more work to do to weed out bad performing stones with or without fluorescence. That’s what we’re here for.

 

[AV_]

@bmfang I considered the round by original OEC standards - with the broad facets excusing some departure from the modern Ideal proportions (HCA VG), symmetry judged as a pattern by the eye etc.

It is a little paradoxical that I'd let a new round get away with such details, true enough.