Another Aussie-hello

[krusty900]

Just wanted to say hi from Australia(Tasmania), doing as much research as I can before I can hopefully ask for some guidance, in choosing a good diamond. Still weighing up the whole purcashing overseas thing vs Jogia in Australia, as the exchange rate is not ideal at the moment.
So much knowledge here, it’s a bit daunting!

 

[scarsmum]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) might be the guy to visit relatively locally. He created the HCA tool and if you want to buy locally there should be some good diamonds to choose from.

 

[WinkHPD]

So much knowledge here, it’s a bit daunting!

LOL! I suspect if you go into full absorption mode it will be like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose.

The nice thing here is you can go at your own speed. Read a thread here, a thread there, look at some pretty pictures, and voila, pretty soon you feel like you are absorbing great information.

The great news is, YOU ARE!

Take your time, have fun and ask LOTS of questions, the folks here are extra friendly and you will love it.

Wink

 

[RayRay]

Welcome krusty900! Enjoy learning

 

[sledge]

Welcome aboard mate. Let us know how we can help.

A few things that might get you started:

• Understand there are really 5 C's: cut, color, clarity, carat weight & cost (budget)
• When your cost (budget) is fixed then you will have to adjust up/down the other 4 C's to make it all work. This is known as a zero sum game.
• Most people here consider cut to be THE most important aspect of the traditional 4 C's.
• If you don't already know, try to understand the color sensitivity of you and your partner. Higher colors cost more money so if you prefer a little tint, or simply aren't color sensitive than you can go down in color and boost another quality (like clarity, carat weight, etc).
  
• Diamond color is graded from the sides, as tint/yellow is harder to see on the face of the diamond. Therefore, if you go with a traditional setting where the pavilion (bottom portion) of the of diamond is covered then you likely can cheat the color thing a little more.
• While many people get hung up on carat weight, it's really not the best way to judge a stone's size. The reasoning is simple as you use this formula to arrive at carat weight (on a round diamond): length x width x depth x 0.061 = carat weight. Consequently, you are better served to look at length & width dimensions and compare against other stones, as part of the carat weight is always contained in depth, which does nothing for making a diamond look bigger.
• It takes about 0.20mm for the normal human eye to see a difference in size. This is roughly 1/128th of an inch. While noticeable when compared side to side, it won't be a "wow, this is sooo much bigger" difference.
• Weights like 1ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc are known as "magic weights" and you will pay premiums as you hit those weights. There is even some (smaller) premiums associated with hitting smaller magic weights like 0.5ct and 0.75ct.
  
• Because of the above, you will find that some diamonds are cut in a (poor) method that hits those magic weights because they are more profitable. If you are lucky enough to find a stone that is slightly under a magic weight you will typically find it's a great value for the money. For instance, a 0.92ct stone of same characteristics would be of no considerable size difference than a 1 carat stone but will be much cheaper because it's less weight and the cost per carat weight is less as well (no premium for the magic carat weight).
• While buying online can seem risky and overwhelming, it is actually a very good way to get the best bang for the buck. You usually have access to more stock, higher quality stones and for less money. With some help from our members, you can rest assured you will find a great performing stone for budgets of all sizes.

There are more things, but this is a quick scrub list that should get you going in the right direction. Hope it helps kick start the process.

 

[LLJsmom]

Welcome aboard mate. Let us know how we can help.

A few things that might get you started:

• Understand there are really 5 C's: cut, color, clarity, carat weight & cost (budget)
• When your cost (budget) is fixed then you will have to adjust up/down the other 4 C's to make it all work. This is known as a zero sum game.
• Most people here consider cut to be THE most important aspect of the traditional 4 C's.
• If you don't already know, try to understand the color sensitivity of you and your partner. Higher colors cost more money so if you prefer a little tint, or simply aren't color sensitive than you can go down in color and boost another quality (like clarity, carat weight, etc).
  
• Diamond color is graded from the sides, as tint/yellow is harder to see on the face of the diamond. Therefore, if you go with a traditional setting where the pavilion (bottom portion) of the of diamond is covered then you likely can cheat the color thing a little more.
• While many people get hung up on carat weight, it's really not the best way to judge a stone's size. The reasoning is simple as you use this formula to arrive at carat weight (on a round diamond): length x width x depth x 0.061 = carat weight. Consequently, you are better served to look at length & width dimensions and compare against other stones, as part of the carat weight is always contained in depth, which does nothing for making a diamond look bigger.
• It takes about 0.20mm for the normal human eye to see a difference in size. This is roughly 1/128th of an inch. While noticeable when compared side to side, it won't be a "wow, this is sooo much bigger" difference.
• Weights like 1ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc are known as "magic weights" and you will pay premiums as you hit those weights. There is even some (smaller) premiums associated with hitting smaller magic weights like 0.5ct and 0.75ct.
  
• Because of the above, you will find that some diamonds are cut in a (poor) method that hits those magic weights because they are more profitable. If you are lucky enough to find a stone that is slightly under a magic weight you will typically find it's a great value for the money. For instance, a 0.92ct stone of same characteristics would be of no considerable size difference than a 1 carat stone but will be much cheaper because it's less weight and the cost per carat weight is less as well (no premium for the magic carat weight).
• While buying online can seem risky and overwhelming, it is actually a very good way to get the best bang for the buck. You usually have access to more stock, higher quality stones and for less money. With some help from our members, you can rest assured you will find a great performing stone for budgets of all sizes.

There are more things, but this is a quick scrub list that should get you going in the right direction. Hope it helps kick start the process.

@sledge
You need to save this post somewhere and paste it for every newbie.

 

[sledge]

@sledge
You need to save this post somewhere and paste it for every newbie.

Thanks @LLJsmom. I've seriously considered doing a blog page so I can do little write ups like this. Just didn't know if the world really needed another one or not. Might be useful to at least store data I can copy & paste back here if nothing else.

 

[krusty900]

Thanks so much for the warm welcome
And thanks @sledge for the comprehensive beginners guide. That is awesome information.
I will be looking at a basic 6 pronged solitare ring in white gold or platinum and a round diamond to add to it. Not sure of size and specs yet. But looking at 7.3k ish US max including tax Etc so about 6.6kfor ring and diamond. She isn’t super fussy, but will try and look at a few more things locally and report back.
Thanks agian

 

[sledge]

Thanks so much for the warm welcome
And thanks @sledge for the comprehensive beginners guide. That is awesome information.
I will be looking at a basic 6 pronged solitare ring in white gold or platinum and a round diamond to add to it. Not sure of size and specs yet. But looking at 7.3k ish US max including tax Etc so about 6.6kfor ring and diamond. She isn’t super fussy, but will try and look at a few more things locally and report back.
Thanks agian

Sounds good. When I get time I will start looking. Any idea on the solitaire type? Nice thing is if she isn't fussy you can buy a nice 6 prong for $500 or less and maximize that diamond budget. That'd leave you about $6k for diamond only which will put you in a 1 carat range, give or take depending on your color requirements.

 

[krusty900]

Thanks @sledge
Very much in the investigative stages at the moment. But thanks for the offer to help and will definetly post again when I have a bit more info.
Cheers

 

[sledge]

Cool. No pressure @krusty900, but wanted to show you a few great options. These are super ideals meaning they will have superior cut and have all imaging, etc. to prove it. All 3 vendors are amazing and I'd have zero qualms working with any of them.

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8746

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/0.920-g-si1-round-diamond-ags-104083068033

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3929360.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3793657.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947665.ht

 

[krusty900]

Thanks for those links. They were the type of ones I was looking at on whiteflash as they have great reviews.
How would something like this compare ?
https://www.jogiadiamonds.com.au/diamonds/diamonditem.php?code=SS3200 in trying to keep it in the same country?
Obviously a gia rated one. HCA score came in at .8

 

[sledge]

Thanks for those links. They were the type of ones I was looking at on whiteflash as they have great reviews.
How would something like this compare ?
https://www.jogiadiamonds.com.au/diamonds/diamonditem.php?code=SS3200 in trying to keep it in the same country?
Obviously a gia rated one. HCA score came in at .8

A few thoughts:

• The stones I listed above from WF, BGD & HPD are known as "super ideals". This means they are AGS000 graded stones that have true hearts & arrow (H&A) symmetry and special cut technique to maximize cut quality & beauty.
• AGS is the only grading lab to provide a cut grade. This is because they use advanced 3D modeling on each specific stone to analyze the various facets and report back their values. Additionally a computer generated ASET image is printed on each certificate indicating how the computer analyzed light performance of that stone. Of course, most vendors selling AGS000 stones also provide an actual ASET image (not computer generated) for review as well.
• In comparison, GIA uses 2D modeling on a fewer number of samples. They average and then round up/down using abnormal logic. Their methodology is questioned by many as the way they do this can really throw off your crown or pavilion angles. Consequently, I don't like buying GIA stones that are on the fringe of ideal territory because they could easily slip out with that funky rounding/averaging.
• The stone you listed has great color & clarity. Is F about where you would like to be? In regards to clarity I personally think you are overpaying for VVS1. Don't take me wrong, I love it. Just with a limited budget I'd rather find an eye clean SI1 or VS2 and use the money savings to boost size or color. In this case, you've already got an F, so I'd probably try to go larger.
  
• I like the table size of 56. My own preference is for 54-56, but really 54-58 works well.
• I don't like the the crown angle of 36. You normally want to be 34-35 (maybe 35.5, if paired with a 40.6 pavilion).
• Pavilion is fine at 40.6. Your goal is to find 40.6-40.9.
  
• Depth varies but 60-62.5% is good. The stone in question has 61.9 which is fine.
• The idea is you want the crown angle (CA) and pavilion angle (PA) to compliment one another. So a high CA needs a low PA to properly compliment (35/40.6). Or you can do the inverse and pair a low CA with a high PA (34/40.9). My own personal sweet spot is a 34.5/40.7-40.8 but really many other CA/PA combos work. Just stay within the above criteria and you will stay in ideal cut territory.
• A quick cheat sheet to help you quickly narrow down stones is the AGS proportions chart. You use the table size, CA and PA to identify the POTENTIAL cut grade of a stone. I then go 1 box in all directions from that intersection to determine where actual cut could land. Below is an example using the stone you linked. https://agslab.com/docs/pbcg/AGSLProportionCharts.pdf
• A method to selecting stones:
  • Search using adjusted criteria above for table, depth, CA & PA
  • Compare actual data against the AGS proportions chart
  • Run the HCA tool. Pass/fail type test so actual values does not mean one is better than another. Simply looking for <2 and preferably >1. Only applicable to GIA stones, as AGS stones have cut grades assigned to them using advanced 3D modeling techniques that supersedes the capabilities and assumptions of the HCA. https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
    
  • Request/review ASET, idealscope and H&A images to confirm light performance (what we are trying to gauge with the AGS proportions chart & HCA tool) and also symmetry precision
• You can see where this stone lands below in the AGS proportions chart. HCA came out at 1.7.
  
• I am impressed they provide you with idealscope images on their site! It appears to me there is some minor leakage going on; however, strong backlighting can also make it appear similar to this. Would like others to review & confirm if possible.
  
• If idealscope is just backlighting, I'd like to see an ASET just to confirm. If that shop doesn't have an ASET viewer, you can order one from Garry @ Holloway Diamonds in Australia. He invented the HCA tool and idealscope, and sells scopes on this website: https://ideal-scope.com/shop/?product_order=date&product_sort=asc
• Some good info to read about ASET: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/what-aset-reveals-ideal-scope-does-not

 

[Nardster]

Thanks for those links. They were the type of ones I was looking at on whiteflash as they have great reviews.
How would something like this compare ?
https://www.jogiadiamonds.com.au/diamonds/diamonditem.php?code=SS3200 in trying to keep it in the same country?
Obviously a gia rated one. HCA score came in at .8

Hey from Perth,
I'm in the same situation as yourself right now and from what I've gathered (Spoken to Yogesh Jogia himself), Jogia Diamonds makes their crossfire selection by selecting their perception of the "best" diamonds in the broader market. Hence, I'm almost 100% sure that you can't compare these to the "super ideals" online. I remember reading a blog post on an analysis of one of the Jogia Diamonds if you'd like a bit of a read
Link: http://niceice.com/review-crossfire-diamonds-jogia-diamonds-australia/

As @Todd Gray would put it, it's a diamond 'hybrid' if you want to describe it in a word.
Yogesh told me that they base their criteria not only on the proportions but also the Firetrace* % on the top and bottom facing sides of the diamond (Something about being scientific about it).

Although, I'm not too keen on putting a % value on light return but if you're a % kinda guy then this may help for the initial narrowing down of selections (and it's already a small selection), but I believe it would be better to book an appointment and view the stones in person. I should note that they only do ASET scope images for fancy cuts, unfortunately.

I think if you're after keeping it within Australia (to potentially save in some costs [GST if you're travelling] for example) then I would say that they provide a nice "middle ground" between superbly cut diamonds and the nice triple Ex that you find in other jewellers. They also do an upgrade policy on the crossfire selection, so that's nice. I still haven't found one that specifically provides a reasonable price (compared to Jogia) on a "hearts & arrows" cut, since most of the stores I've inquired here in Perth don't understand the term super ideal.

What sort of time frame are you looking at? If you still have time, I can take more photos of the diamond for you when I visit JogiaDiamonds in a week or two (not deciding between online or JogiaDiamonds just yet though). Just thought I'd mention.

Good luck!

Edit: I forgot to mention that @sledge ' analysis is spot on.

 

[sledge]

FYI the percentage based brilliance, scintillation, etc is considered useless by most here. Although it didn't have the term on the report I saw, it is similar to a Gemex report.

To see more, go to Blue Nile and look at their "Astor Ideal" cuts. As you look at details you will find a Gemex report. Do a little more research (here or Google) and you will confirm the thought Astor Ideal is not worth the premium. If you filter by the criteria I gave you it is possible to find an equal that isn't labeled Astor Ideal and won't have that premium for a useless report.

FYI the diamond image above was downloaded from Gogia and is an idealscope image, not an ASET. An ASET will look similar but have red, blue and green to discern different levels. Only clarifying as it was stated Gogua provided ASETs only. I wish it was true, as you can tell more by an ASET and don't need an idealscope if you have one. The inverse is not true. You may also want an ASET even if you have an idealscope image.

 

[krusty900]

Thanks @sledge for the detailed reply. I’ll have a more thorough read this weekend. And try and get my head around it.
I was going going to ask,for a naieve person,who hasn’t seen many diamonds would there be a noticeable visible difference between the ideal hearts and arrows stone and the gia ones?or is not that noticeable/more of a mind thing?
Thanks @Nardster that definetly answers some questions I had also. No time frame, probably a way off at this stage,just doing some investigation. Thanks a heap for the offer though

 

[bmfang]

For the money you can save on not going for a VVS1. Eye clean SI1/VS2 is the sweet spot and will help to maximise your buying power.

CA is way higher than what would go for. Max of 35 for me (especially with GIA graded stones).

Not all GIA XXX’s are worth that grading level. There is extreme variability between a GIA XXX cut to super ideal standards vs a GIA XXX cut just to make it into the XXX cut grade (which a lot of stones are cut for).

Given you are in Tassie, you’re just a short trip across the Bass Strait to both of Garry Holloway’s stores in Melbourne (one in Brighton, the other in Canterbury). He’s the inventor of the Idealscope and HCA.
https://www.hollowaydiamonds.com.au/

 

[Nardster]

Thanks @sledge for the detailed reply. I’ll have a more thorough read this weekend. And try and get my head around it.
I was going going to ask,for a naieve person,who hasn’t seen many diamonds would there be a noticeable visible difference between the ideal hearts and arrows stone and the gia ones?or is not that noticeable/more of a mind thing?
Thanks @Nardster that definetly answers some questions I had also. No time frame, probably a way off at this stage,just doing some investigation. Thanks a heap for the offer though

No worries, it's good to have enough time to do this stuff.

I haven't personally seen the hearts and arrows with my own eyes (had to use a scope) when I visited stores, but I wasn't looking for it at the time (Was more interested in just looking at the color and inclusion differences). I will look for it the next time I visit though.

I'll also visit London at the end of the month and hopefully get the chance to see CBI diamonds in one of their affiliated stores there.

I'll follow up on both occasions on this thread.

My concern, besides the price, is whether or not a super ideal loses too much of its brilliance (can the arrows become blurred?) when you don't clean them regularly (say every month or so) it'll purely depend on whether or not my partner wears it often I suppose (I dont think she's into wearing rings)

 

[sledge]

Not all GIA XXX’s are worth that grading level. There is extreme variability between a GIA XXX cut to super ideal standards vs a GIA XXX cut just to make it into the XXX cut grade (which a lot of stones are cut for).

Well said @bmfang.

I do think there is a difference. Each person may not be able to explain why as they lack the technical expertise but I do think their eyes see the difference.

I wish I could find the post, so I could quote directly but the owner of HPD, @Wink, made a comment awhile back about how he would present diamonds to customers in a randomized order and essentially they ended up naturally choosing super ideal stones for one reason or another. So yes, I do believe there is a difference, and a difference that is worthwhile.

 

[krusty900]

I wish I could find the post, so I could quote directly but the owner of HPD, @Wink, made a comment awhile back about how he would present diamonds to customers in a randomized order and essentially they ended up naturally choosing super ideal stones for one reason or another. So yes, I do believe there is a difference, and a difference that is worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

Thanks @sledge that’s what I was wondering. Will report back after some more investigating with the Mrs.

 

[kindred]

Lucky you - you can go to Garry Halloway's stores! I would start there.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Those idealscope images are fine. I wouldn't have a problem if you chose that stone. But I would drop to G-H color in GIA diamonds unless there is some reason you know she requires D-F. I also would look for VS1-VS2 clarity as they are usually very clean. Dropping to these specs can get you either a top cut stone or a 1 ct stone.

While that stone is a nice one, here are the specs I personally use and most superideal cuts are in this range. Start with GIA Excellent cut and:

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

I personally have superideal cut diamond stud earrings from Whiteflash, and it would be hard for me to not have superideals at this point after having them. But GIA diamonds in the range I posted above are so far superior to the vast majority of stones you'd ever actually see that I wouldn't majorly stress over it.

 

[krusty900]

Those idealscope images are fine. I wouldn't have a problem if you chose that stone. But I would drop to G-H color in GIA diamonds unless there is some reason you know she requires D-F. I also would look for VS1-VS2 clarity as they are usually very clean. Dropping to these specs can get you either a top cut stone or a 1 ct stone.

While that stone is a nice one, here are the specs I personally use and most superideal cuts are in this range. Start with GIA Excellent cut and:

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

I personally have superideal cut diamond stud earrings from Whiteflash, and it would be hard for me to not have superideals at this point after having them. But GIA diamonds in the range I posted above are so far superior to the vast majority of stones you'd ever actually see that I wouldn't majorly stress over it.

Thanks @diamondseeker2006 the stone I posted was purely for an example from an Aussie vendor.
Definitely don’t need to go for d-f colour (to be fair, I think she would be happy with absolutely anything) just want to get something that looks the best for the dollars. Just need to narrow things down a bit.
Your last sentence was what I was wondering,so thanks for the help.

 

[LetLoveRule]

Fellow Aussie and newbie here I've just purchased my first diamond with the help of many others here I know nothing about round diamonds, but just wanted to say hi. It's a lot of fun doing the research, take your time and enjoy!

 

[krusty900]

Hi @LetLoveRule it certainly is interesting and am enjoying the research.
I think after some more researching I could be looking at this ring
https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...295-solitaire-engagement-ring-4030.htm#size=6

But now looking at something around the 0.8 carat not the 1. (Cost and partner preference after trying some rings on today, although it is difficult as she has a small finger so can’t try on anything that actually fits)

 

[aussiemel]

Welcome to Pricescope krusty900 Another Aussie here, I'm in Melbourne. Your fiancee is lucky you're taking the time to research a beautiful diamond for her ring, you're certainly in the right place for great advice.

The ring is beautiful and classic.

 

[krusty900]

Thanks @aussiemel , potential fiancé, haha.
So much information here and a lot of friendly people. It’s great.

 

[sledge]

You can find some good values below the 1 carat range. If you are considering a setting from WF I'd consider a stone too.

Have you figured out color yet?

 

[krusty900]

Hi @sledge yep that is the tentative plan at this stage. We looked at some rings yesterday and the whiter the better I think. Unfortunately the ones we looked at were pretty poor quality, but there was a 0.75 colour e which was much nicer than the others we looked at.(can’t remember those specs) So probably around 0.8 and f/g in an ideal cut is where I’ll be looking.

 

[sledge]

@krusty900 since you are considering super ideals also include HPD and BGD to your list. I recently saw a very white HPD/CBI stone and they have some literature how their stones are more white than competition due to the way they cut, etc.

If you and your girl are color sensitive I'd probably stick to F+.