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99.2% of recent US Covid deaths were unvaccinated people

junebug17

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I think the whole point of getting vaccinated is that none of us knows exactly how our bodies would react to Covid. There are plenty of cases of younger people now, with no prior health conditions, contracting Covid and dying shortly afterwards. I am over 60, there was no way I wasn’t going to get vaccinated, and I’m not someone who has ever previously had a flu jab, because I just didn’t think it was necessary. I’m healthy, not on any kind of medication but I could not predict if I would recover or die if I got Covid, and I wasn’t about to risk finding out. I also didn’t want to have to live with organ damage caused by it. We’ve had 3 lockdowns in the UK, simply because people wouldn’t adhere to social distancing and mask wearing, hence the spread of variants, Delta in particular. We’re finally seeing some light at the end of the tunnel because of the high vaccination take up.

Our scientists are saying that even if you’ve had Covid, you should still get vaccinated. I’m happy to take the advice of experts. If I have any long term detrimental effects from the vaccine, so be it, but I’d rather be part of the solution than the problem. My view is that it’s not about me as an individual, but about doing what’s right for everyone.

I’m not bashing anyone who can’t for medical reasons get vaccinated.

Very well said @Austina. I agree with everything you've written.
 

Matata

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When we had covid in March 2020, my husband ended up with pneumonia. Now that his body has seen the virus, I’m confident it will fight it off.
Screen Shot 2021-08-05 at 12.05.46 PM.png
The black on the left x-ray shows air in the lungs; on the right shows inability of lungs to fill with air. I sincerely hope your husband hasn't suffered permanent damage to his lungs.

"While most people recover from pneumonia without any lasting lung damage, the pneumonia associated with COVID-19 can be severe. Even after the disease has passed, lung injury may result in breathing difficulties that might take months to improve."
 

ItsMainelyYou

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This is beyond unfortunate.
snip:
“In our previous iteration of the pandemic, it was more they’re positive but they’re not sick or minimally sick,” Ford said of the pandemic’s changing impact on children. “This is different. ... There’s a much higher percentage of pediatric patients becoming infected and symptomatic.”

The number of patients presenting at Memorial Health and Joe DiMaggio Children’s emergency rooms with COVID also has exploded, Ford said, from 23 in June to 240 in July, a nearly 1,000% increase.
 

Matata

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“In our previous iteration of the pandemic, it was more they’re positive but they’re not sick or minimally sick,” Ford said of the pandemic’s changing impact on children. “This is different. ... There’s a much higher percentage of pediatric patients becoming infected and symptomatic.”

The number of patients presenting at Memorial Health and Joe DiMaggio Children’s emergency rooms with COVID also has exploded, Ford said, from 23 in June to 240 in July, a nearly 1,000% increase.

This will make absolutely no impression on the anti vaxxers unless scores of kids die and (pardon my cynicism), I'm doubtful that will make much difference in changing their politicized minds. The refrain oft repeated by the unvaccinated is that survival rate for adults is 98.2% so why should they get the vaccine. We'll probably hear the same rationale for kids.
 

hmr_mama

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Of course we can. It's still here, you know. The 1918 flu killed younger people. That's what made it so frightening. We were in the middle of a World War- so the movement of bodies was at huge numbers- millions of people.
That's how it spread last time- just like this time. Travel.
60 million dead of Spanish flu worldwide. Waves kept happening in places people refused to mask. Took forever to burn out because of it.
The difference between now and then is that we have a vaccine! That works!
We have anywhere between 4-14 (they're not sure how bad it is yet)million dead worldwide so far.

OMG. You have a science-based degree yet you don't understand the basics of this disease. My husband has two science-based degrees. It doesn't make him a doctor, immunologist, public health expert, or epidemiologist. So unless your expertise in in a field related to medicine, virology, immunology, etc., your degree doesn't matter. "Novel" just means a new strain, not something completely unheard of that fell from the sky.
How do I not understand the basics of this disease? Enlighten me.

I'm not a trained chef but I still cook. The idea that I can't think logically because I'm not an epidemiologist is a strange argument.

The reason we shut down "based in fear" was because of the high R0. This variant is much more contagious, with an even higher R0. Spanish flu had an R0 in the 2-range. Delta has an R0 of 5-9. That's a fact, not based on fear. Last year, people were not distancing or masking on their own, and given the severity, morbidity, and lack of a vaccine, something had to be done to protect the health of the general public. It was for protection, and given the horrible death toll (631k to date) we needed it. You must be forgetting the terrible toll it had on hospitals, which were filled with COVID patients on ventilators. Nurses and doctors here basically said once someone was on a vent, it's pretty grim. Why? Because their bodies have been trashed by the virus and their lungs were taking the brunt of it. Not everyone who died had comorbidities. That's just irrational thinking. There are also the long-term effects from the virus. Hospitals in my area today were on diversion. Not a good sign. Nothing I said is a scare tactic. It's fact.

I would say most hospitals in America weren't full of covid patients. Sometimes city dwellers forget that rural America has hospitals too. None of the hospitals within 200 miles of my town were ever near capacity.

I'm not a Dr. but I wonder if some of the lung damage we saw in early Covid patients was due to an over reaction from their immune system. I read that they were going to hold a clinical trial for a drug to help reduce the inflammatory response within the lung tissue. It seems logical that subsequent infections wouldn't illicit as strong of an immune response which would reduce the likelihood of such severe damage to the lung tissue.

Although it's true that not everyone that died from Covid 19 had comorbitities, the majority did and continue to do so.

Children didn't catch it as much and the death rate is lower. Again, this is a new strain so we don't know what will happen. One child dying is one too many. I've never been one to rely on the odds, since someone has to be on the losing side. I don't want to be that person. There's been an 80%+ increase in pediatric cases in the past week. Over 1000 young children have died in Brazil.

I agree, one child dying is too many. What's happening in Brazil is beyond sad. It's hard to say what's happening. In the articles I've read, I'm not sure we can say that the deaths are due to the Delta variant or there's been a misstep on the part of the medical establishment. The AP published a story about a young boy that died due to being sent home because he had an atypical presentation. I'll be watching for the research coming out of Brazil. Have you followed along with Sweden's infection/fatality rates? I've been following along and I'll be very interested to see how their population does with Delta. I worry that some of the shut downs/quarantines kept people from being infected with Cov2. If Cov2 was less infectious and less lethal, protecting populations from it wasn't in their best interest. Now they're being infected with Delta with no convalescence.
I hate to tell you, but healthy people are dying from it now, and quickly. If you don't think so, go tell it to the family I had to console the other day.

BTW, the curve was flattened for the Spanish Flu due to social distancing, quarantine, and a shut down of public gatherings, such as church and school. National Geographic has a great article on it, but you have to subscribe to view it.

I'm glad you're not afraid of COVID or a TBI. It's nothing to brag about, though.

I'm so sorry for the family and for you. Dealing with death and disease is for the chosen few.

I wasn't "bragging". We all choose how we go through life. You're either filled with hope or worry. The glass is either half full or half empty. I will continue to go through my day choosing hope.
 

AprilBaby

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I assume those who don’t trust the vaccine will also not trust the meds to try to make you better if you get Delta. You can’t pick and choose what to believe so if you get sick might as well stay home to die.
 

Ontheblackrock15

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My husband and I are both fully vaccinated, and he just tested positive for COVID. So far his symptoms are just that of a typical flu, but he has completely lost his senses of taste and smell. I tested negative, but have some symptoms (sore throat, cough). Regardless of vaccination status, it's time to put those masks back on. We hadn't even done anything all that risky - outdoor dining and a trip to the grocery store unmasked - and he still managed to get it.
 

Lookinagain

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My husband and I are both fully vaccinated, and he just tested positive for COVID. So far his symptoms are just that of a typical flu, but he has completely lost his senses of taste and smell. I tested negative, but have some symptoms (sore throat, cough). Regardless of vaccination status, it's time to put those masks back on. We hadn't even done anything all that risky - outdoor dining and a trip to the grocery store unmasked - and he still managed to get it.

I'm so sorry. I hope he recovers soon and that you don't get any more symptoms. Masking up is the smart thing to do.
 

hmr_mama

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I assume those who don’t trust the vaccine will also not trust the meds to try to make you better if you get Delta. You can’t pick and choose what to believe so if you get sick might as well stay home to die.

mRNA vaccines haven’t been cleared by the FDA. Ever. The therapeutics used to treat covid have FDA clearance and have been around for years. You CAN pick and choose. #freedom
 

missy

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mRNA vaccines haven’t been cleared by the FDA. Ever. The therapeutics used to treat covid have FDA clearance and have been around for years. You CAN pick and choose. #freedom

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And in this case (for most people) the vaccines are far superior to having Covid and trying to treat it as we don’t yet have good treatments for Covid.



My husband and I are both fully vaccinated, and he just tested positive for COVID. So far his symptoms are just that of a typical flu, but he has completely lost his senses of taste and smell. I tested negative, but have some symptoms (sore throat, cough). Regardless of vaccination status, it's time to put those masks back on. We hadn't even done anything all that risky - outdoor dining and a trip to the grocery store unmasked - and he still managed to get it.


Ugh, I’m so sorry. Sending you both bucketloads of healing vibes and good wishes for you and your DH’s speedy recovery.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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mRNA vaccines haven’t been cleared by the FDA. Ever. The therapeutics used to treat covid have FDA clearance and have been around for years. You CAN pick and choose. #freedom

They have however been studied for the last decade.
*about as long as Remdesivir- though obviously more complex.
The concept has been around for a few decades now. They will go through full clearance sometime later this year. It was impeccable timing that they were ready when we needed them most. Just wait until they release what else they're working on using mRNAs. It's going to revolutionize the treatment of disease.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

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For US peeps, this website has lots of data pulled from the main sources such a Johns Hopkins, CDC, etc. I went there to look at the hospital capacity numbers, which are about 10 days behind. Still, it was interesting. You can search throughout the country for hospitalizations, active cases, the curve in your county, etc. Just scroll to the bottom for various data sets. They pull the data from the major sites.

 

maru8888777

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I don't contribute to these types of discussions in public forums often, but I will here because it seems important, though I know I'm not saying anything new. PS is an odd place where a group of disparate people come together to passionately argue about the relative value of what, to most people, are minute and imperceptible details. Here, personal taste is discussed alongside aesthetic standards that, while dynamic and changing, are collectively established... this isn't entirely unlike the tension of "personal freedom" vs. "collective responsibility" that is prevalent on this thread. I guess those of us participating are hoping not to change the minds of those who are arguing, but maybe plant a seed of doubt on people who are on the fence or reading this but not saying anything.

We know shame is a terrible public health measure, and shaming anti-maskers and people who are ambivalent or against vaccines is not going to work. Besides, many of the folks who are not vaccinated are not ideologically-driven: the working poor, and folks from Black and brown communities that have been neglected or exploited by the same institutions that should protect them. Then we have children and a small group of immunocompromised people for whom vaccines don't work as well or who can't get vaccinated. Focusing our anger anti-vaxxers and Trump supporters is expedient, and it allows some of us to throw our hands up in the air in frustration. Some folks have earned that right... first responders, frontline health workers, we can't ask more from you, so vent away. The rest of us might have a little more wiggle room to seek better policy and not let anger at anti-vaxxers suck all the air out of the room.

I understand the difficulties that the CDC was in, especially under the Trump administration, but gosh have they botched the messaging from a social science perspective. I wish they'd said "masks work, but there's a shortage, please refrain from buying them until health care providers have enough." It made people distrust their messages from then on. I wish they hadn't said, back in May, that vaccinated people could be unmasked indoors (which effectively meant that unvaccinated people took off their masks too, and made vulnerable people, say the supermarket cashier, arbiters and enforcers). I get that everyone makes mistakes, but the US was behind the curve in policy, and we failed, again, to learn from what had worked and not in other countries. I wish they explained things clearly but with nuance (as in, "when we say "6 feet," we mean an approximate number"). I wish they'd emphasized measures against airborne transmission over things like sanitizing surfaces sooner (this led to ridiculous things, like children sitting 6 feet apart indoors, in schools, rather than outside if there was space). I wish we hadn't shamed people for going to the beach or to the park: if people need to gather, and it is a human need, that was the absolute best way to do it.

I'm not saying this because I dislike the CDC (Dr. Fauci has had an impossible job), or because I don't think that policymakers can't make mistakes. I'm saying this because I think it's important to recognize that these issues have contributed to our current predicament and we need to do better, and actually have in the past. We don't tell people not to have sex: we tell them to wear condoms and have safer sex (abstinence-only programs exist, of course, but they aren't made by public health professionals). We try not to stigmatize people living with HIV so that they will not fear going to the doctor or to get tested.

At the same time, "freedom" or "individual choice" work in the same ways when it comes to a pandemic, though of course they don't disappear just because there's a collective tragedy. Public health counter-intuitive in the American context. It is different from medicine: medicine treats individuals, whereas public health is meant to treat populations. In a pandemic, as much as we might hate to admit it, we don't have full control over our bodies or our health. We rely on others to protect themselves and us. We rely on institutions, like hospitals, to function in order to help us when we need it, we rely on vaccine rollouts that are well-organized and that can reach the most people (and those most vulnerable). You can choose to get vaccinated or not, of course, or to wear/not wear a mask, but it's extremely difficult to fully opt out of being part of a community, even if you have a fair amount of privilege.

Since we're not islands onto ourselves, what happens to us, or doesn't, will have an impact on others and on institutions of care (schools, hospitals, etc.), an impact that we can't fully control or choose, and that we likely will not see. It's not a matter of blame or guilt, it's just how things are. The more infections that occur (whether in vaccinated or unvaccinated people), the more likely it becomes for variants to escape immunity. The more burdened our hospitals are, the more likely it becomes for people to die when they could have lived, or to suffer when they could have found relief. There are heartbreaking stories that highlight all of this on this thread.

I expected us to have decent vaccines, but it has been shocking just how good they are, even if that doesn't mean that they are perfect. They are the best resource we have to prevent mass illness and death (masks are pretty good, but not as good)--even if they are not all equally effective against the Delta variant. There are some people who will not comply, and good policies will take that into account (as well as partial compliance). We also have other measures. We need to get as many people as possible to have access to those vaccines, and for some, it's not as simple as just driving up to the pharmacy. There are also other possibilities that can be broadly applied and don't rely on choice: better sick leave policies, better distribution, better access to reliable information, better ventilation in indoor places, better child care for people who are sick or have side effects, reliable transportation to vaccine sites etc. we would be doing better. Much of these policies are made at the local level, so we have more agency than we think. Vocal anti-vaxxers shouldn't be at the center of outreach activities: they are in the minority, and the folks who need to be reached are the same people who go without basic medicine (insulin, for example) because it's too cumbersome to get it.

It's hard to be in this together when we don't agree. But that's the problem. We are. The risk of Covid falls heavily on the unvaccinated, but the vaccinated can't "opt out" either. If people are afraid to say that they are unvaccinated because of stigma, or to ask questions, or to say that they are afraid we won't get them to be vaccinated either. Some people, including some on this thread, will choose not to get vaccinated for reasons that escape me. If things turn out well, because it's not about individuals or about who deserves what, they will benefit from the same broader protections that can help us survive the pandemic.
 

missy

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A potential good side effect of the Covid Vaccines.


"

Could the Covid Vaccine (and Others) Prevent Alzheimer’s?


There’s growing evidence that inoculation confers significant protective benefits.


Covid vaccines enormously reduce the risk of death and hospitalization in those who have been infected by the novel coronavirus. But could they also help protect seniors against dementia and Alzheimer’s disease? There’s reason to hope so.


Growing evidence indicates that seniors who get vaccinated against illnesses such as tetanus and even the flu are much less likely to develop Alzheimer’s, the leading cause of dementia, characterized by a buildup of amyloid plaque and tau tangles in the brain. Scientists don’t completely understand why, but many hypothesize that vaccines generate a systemic immune response that can reduce inflammation in the brain, which results in neuron loss and cognitive decline.


Among the first pieces of evidence was a 2001 study that tracked roughly 3,600 Canadians over 65. After adjusting for age, sex and education, the researcher found that past vaccinations for diphtheria/tetanus, poliomyelitis and influenza were associated with a 59%, 40% and 25% lower risk for Alzheimer’s, respectively.

The study had shortcomings. The differences discovered between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups could have been due to confounding variables. People who get vaccinated, for instance, may also be more likely to get regular checkups and suffer fewer underlying conditions like diabetes that increase the risk for Alzheimer’s.



But more-recent studies controlled for these factors and still found a strongly beneficial association between vaccines and Alzheimer’s. A research article published in the Journals of Gerontology in April examined the link between Alzheimer’s and the Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis) vaccine. By using health records from the Veterans Health Administration and a large database of private medical claims for seniors over 65, researchers could adjust for variables such as demographics, health-services utilization, health conditions and medications. After these adjustments, they found that seniors who had received the Tdap vaccine had a 42% lower risk of developing dementia than those who hadn’t.

The BCG vaccine for tuberculosis is mostly distributed at birth in developing countries. But it is also a common (though not the only) therapy for early-stage bladder cancer. Comparing bladder-cancer patients treated with BCG with those who weren’t can eliminate confounding effects since patients aren’t self-selecting into either group.

In a study published this spring in the journal Vaccines, researchers in Israel and the U.S. examined health records for some 12,185 bladder-cancer patients treated in both countries from 2000-19. They found that patients over 75 who received BCG treatment had a 27% lower risk for Alzheimer’s some 3½ to seven years later.


“We attributed BCG’s beneficial effect on neurodegenerative diseases to a possible activation of long-term nonspecific immune effects,” the authors wrote. For instance, the BCG treatment increased the levels of anti-inflammatory cytokines, which could lead to an increase in beneficial T-cells that help regulate inflammation. The mRNA Covid vaccines have also been found to generate such cytokines.


Another study, from the Montefiore Medical Center and Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx, published this spring in the Clinical Genitourinary Cancer journal, found that bladder-cancer patients who received BCG treatment had a 60% lower risk of developing Alzheimer’s and other dementias than patients who did not.


What about vaccines that are more common? A study last year sponsored by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute examined data from more than 5,000 people 65 and over who participated in a cardiovascular-health study. The researchers found that getting a pneumonia vaccine between ages 65 and 75 (the vaccine is recommended for adults over 65) reduced the risk of Alzheimer’s by 25% to 30% after adjusting for potentially confounding variables.


The study didn’t find a beneficial effect from the flu vaccine alone, but the effects could hinge in part on timing and frequency. Another study last year, from the University of Texas’s McGovern Medical School, found that seniors who received flu vaccines more often and got their first before they turned 60 were significantly less likely to develop Alzheimer’s. The flu vaccine generates a weaker immune response than many other vaccines, so perhaps repeated vaccinations are needed to have a positive effect.


It hasn’t been proved that vaccines actually reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s, but multiple studies using different designs and populations support this theory. It’s also unknown whether Covid vaccines may impart a similar protective benefit, but they trigger a strong systemic immune response like some of the other studied vaccines.


What’s more, Cleveland Clinic researchers this summer discovered that Covid infections “significantly altered Alzheimer’s markers implicated in brain inflammation,” suggesting that the virus could trigger changes in the brain that result in dementia similar to Alzheimer’s.



There’s still a lot scientists don’t understand about both Alzheimer’s and Covid. But one silver lining of the pandemic has been the increased attention paid to vaccines, including for common ailments like the flu and pneumonia. Some 80% of seniors have been fully vaccinated against Covid, and a similar share last year got the flu vaccine.


Who knows? Perhaps years from now many fewer people than expected will have developed Alzheimer’s, and we may have the Covid vaccines to thank.
 

wildcat03

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mRNA vaccines haven’t been cleared by the FDA. Ever. The therapeutics used to treat covid have FDA clearance and have been around for years. You CAN pick and choose. #freedom

What therapeutics used to treat COVID? Oxygen and ECMO? Yes, those have been around for years. Dexamethasone? Yeah, been around for years but being misused a lot during COVID. Remdesivir and monoclonal antibodies? Same EUA as the vaccines.

Or are you talking about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, which MANY MANY studies have shown don't work?
 

wildcat03

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They have however been studied for the last decade.
*about as long as Remdesivir- though obviously more complex.
The concept has been around for a few decades now. They will go through full clearance sometime later this year. It was impeccable timing that they were ready when we needed them most. Just wait until they release what else they're working on using mRNAs. It's going to revolutionize the treatment of disease.

Full FDA approval of Pfizer mRNA vaccine is expected in September. Can't wait to hear the new excuses people come up with!
 

AprilBaby

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I can complain about anti Vaxers all I want # freedom :Up_to_something:
As an immunocompromised individual who is vaccinated they are stepping on my right to resume a normal life.
 

hmr_mama

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They have however been studied for the last decade.
*about as long as Remdesivir- though obviously more complex.
The concept has been around for a few decades now. They will go through full clearance sometime later this year. It was impeccable timing that they were ready when we needed them most. Just wait until they release what else they're working on using mRNAs. It's going to revolutionize the treatment of disease.

You seem to have vast knowledge concerning mRNA vaccines. Can you point me to studies on the long term effects of these vaccines?

Most people I know that have mRNA vaccine hesitancy have concerns about the lack of long term studies. I am one. I am not an "anti-vaxxer". My household is fully vaccinated; we're just opting out of mRNA vaccines until I see some long term studies. This choice was made by considering my age, my entire families lack of comorbitities, and my ability to follow the AMA's recommendations for preventing the spread:


My mind is not made up. My choice most likely will change as the science continues to develop. I will continue to read studies concerning the vaccines but for now it seems risky. But I am young and have most of my life left to live. If I were 85, the story would be different.
 

maru8888777

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You seem to have vast knowledge concerning mRNA vaccines. Can you point me to studies on the long term effects of these vaccines?

Most people I know that have mRNA vaccine hesitancy have concerns about the lack of long term studies. I am one. I am not an "anti-vaxxer". My household is fully vaccinated; we're just opting out of mRNA vaccines until I see some long term studies. This choice was made by considering my age, my entire families lack of comorbitities, and my ability to follow the AMA's recommendations for preventing the spread:


My mind is not made up. My choice most likely will change as the science continues to develop. I will continue to read studies concerning the vaccines but for now it seems risky. But I am young and have most of my life left to live. If I were 85, the story would be different.

I understand the concerns about newer technologies (though, to clarify, mRNA is not an entirely new technology). I suspect that the kind of study that you are looking for might not exist... there might be studies about the long-term safety of the technology, but not the specific vaccines (maybe I am wrong). Here is something:

On the other hand, we don't know everything about the long-term effects of a covid infection, but in some cases, it doesn't look great. Even with mild infections, the long-term effects can be devastating, and seem more prevalent in women and more vulnerable people:


In other words, we know more about the safety of the vaccines, since the technology has been around, than we do about the long-term effects of Covid. That doesn't mean that the mRNA vaccine has no side effects: in the vast majority of cases, they are bothersome, but not serious. I had a fever for a week. In rare cases, the side effects can be more severe. That is real. But between these two scenarios, choosing the vaccine, while not risk free, is the option I'd choose, based on the recommendation and work of many dedicated people who have spent a lifetime studying these viruses AND these vaccines.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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You seem to have vast knowledge concerning mRNA vaccines. Can you point me to studies on the long term effects of these vaccines?

Most people I know that have mRNA vaccine hesitancy have concerns about the lack of long term studies. I am one. I am not an "anti-vaxxer". My household is fully vaccinated; we're just opting out of mRNA vaccines until I see some long term studies. This choice was made by considering my age, my entire families lack of comorbitities, and my ability to follow the AMA's recommendations for preventing the spread:


My mind is not made up. My choice most likely will change as the science continues to develop. I will continue to read studies concerning the vaccines but for now it seems risky. But I am young and have most of my life left to live. If I were 85, the story would be different.
They will be fully cleared by September of this year.
It's no longer experimental.
It helps that almost 5 Billion doses have been given worldwide at this point.
We've also been studying varying types of vaccine side effects themselves since the 1960's. Most happen within the first 60 days...mRNA is no different in that respect.
I never claimed expertise or vast knowledge on the intricacies of vaccine development but I do hold several science degrees, with one specialty as an RRT(Registered Respiratory Therapist) and another in a research related field.
So, it's fair to say... I do know more than the average bear
Respiratory disease and prevention is in my wheelhouse.

I sure can, but will you read it and understand what you've read as raw data to make some kind of educated discernment? Or, maybe you could begin by trusting the myriad thousands doctors, respiratory specialists, nurses et al and the immunology/virology/epidemiology etc. experts who are working tirelessly to, if not eradicate, than at least mitigate this terrible virus. And have been their entire careers.
Your reticence is your choice.
It is also our choice to mitigate the damage of your choice on the general public.



https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778441
* this last has cite sources of several independent vaccine trials- most on Google Scholar some Pub Med.
Also love these, short, straight, to the point and he's done several new ones recently specifically on Covid that come right up. Wonderful pocket resource!

I'm not here to attack or belittle, I'm here on this thread because I want people to survive. Including you and yours.
 
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hmr_mama

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509
They will be fully cleared by September of this year.
It's no longer experimental.
It helps that almost 5 Billion doses have been given worldwide at this point.
We've also been studying varying types of vaccine side effects themselves since the 1960's. Most happen within the first 60 days...mRNA is no different in that respect.
I never claimed expertise or vast knowledge on the intricacies of vaccine development but I do hold several science degrees, with one specialty as an RRT(Registered Respiratory Therapist) and another in a research related field.
So, it's fair to say... I do know more than the average bear
Respiratory disease and prevention is in my wheelhouse.

I sure can, but will you read it and understand what you've read as raw data to make some kind of educated discernment? Or, maybe you could begin by trusting the myriad thousands doctors, respiratory specialists, nurses et al and the immunology/virology/epidemiology etc. experts who are working tirelessly to, if not eradicate, than at least mitigate this terrible virus. And have been their entire careers.
Your reticence is your choice.
It is also our choice to mitigate the damage of your choice on the general public.



https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778441
* this last has cite sources of several independent vaccine trials- most on Google Scholar some Pub Med.
Also love these, short, straight, to the point and he's done several new ones recently specifically on Covid that come right up. Wonderful pocket resource!

I'm not here to attack or belittle, I'm here on this thread because I want people to survive. Including you and yours.

Thanks for your reply. I want to point out the last sentence in your post. I'm not either. I find your replies kind and informative. You seem like someone I can have an open discussion with.

I am on pins and needles waiting for the data from Moderna and Pfizer that will give them FDA approval. I'll be very interested in the data sets they present.

Yes, I believe I can read raw data and and make an educated discernment. I'm not sure if this was meant as condescending as several other posters have questioned my education. It's clear that most posters in this forum are convinced the only people that would dare question vaccine safety are of a lower socioeconomic class than them. That's simply not true.

I did read your links, although I admit, I skipped the video. I did not glean any information that would make me rush to the clinic.

It is also our choice to mitigate the damage of your choice on the general public.

I would like some clarification of what this sentence is supposed to mean. It comes off as threatening. My choice doesn't hurt the "general public". If I do come down with covid I will stay home until the illness subsides. Covid will continue to move through populations, vaccinated or not. I don't need to talk to you about viral loads, transmissibility, etc. But all of those points are moot if you stay home and away from others while sick. I am not a threat to the general public.

Do you see all people as vectors or just the unvaccinated? Do you believe respiratory illness can be eradicated via vaccine? How do you feel when people cough/sneeze in public? These aren't meant to be derisive. I'm truly curious.
 

ItsMainelyYou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
1,958
It's good to see someone open to discourse. This is all I'll ever ask.
And I don't mean to sound condescending or threatening. Not my intention.
Do you see all people as vectors or just the unvaccinated? Do you believe respiratory illness can be eradicated via vaccine? How do you feel when people cough/sneeze in public? These aren't meant to be derisive. I'm truly curious.
Oddly, and honestly, yes, sometimes I do see people that way. I try not to, and had relaxed a bit with age...but Covid definitely impacted apprehension.
I do, as many other diseases have been. This is what makes me so excited about this class of vaccine.
With the advent of mRNA vaccines, yes I think it is possible in the future. These vaccines do more than create antibodies to attack 'invaders' as they come; they actually teach the body how to make and then dismantle proteins so that the disease itself can't replicate in the first place. The possibility of the hope of reversal comes into the conversation, for the first time. The implications of that are huge. Science fiction-y, in the best way.

This extrapolation in relation to R0 factor worries me, this is using an R5 factor- the Delta variant could end up having an R factor anywhere between 6-8. Variant coming down the pike could be worse we don't know. Vaccines will protect many from serious disease and death.
 

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westofhere

Guest
Any person, vaccinated or unvaccinated, could spread the disease to, and kill, an unvaccinated person. There’s a tiny chance—so far thought to be .001%—that in spreading the vaccine to a vaccinated person, that vaxxed person will die. Time for masks again. The “I’m not getting vaccinated because if I get it I don’t think I’ll die” line is only moral if the person holding that view lives alone and literally never goes outside or has visitors. I’m not talking about those whose health issues make getting vaccinated inadvisable—but there are 6 states with vaxx rates less than 38%, and of course 62% of those states’ citizens don’t all have medical conditions that make getting vaccinated impossible.

The bottom line is that tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) will die because a large portion of the citizenry does not care about the health of others.

In a few weeks, K-12 and higher ed will start up, the spread will accelerate, and so will deaths.
 

lilmosun

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 30, 2014
Messages
1,993
I would like some clarification of what this sentence is supposed to mean. It comes off as threatening. My choice doesn't hurt the "general public". If I do come down with covid I will stay home until the illness subsides. Covid will continue to move through populations, vaccinated or not. I don't need to talk to you about viral loads, transmissibility, etc. But all of those points are moot if you stay home and away from others while sick. I am not a threat to the general public.

Staying home if/while you have symptoms does not the spread (whether you are vaccinated or not). The challenge with Covid is and always has been how this virus spreads asymptomatically. (For that reason, I am personally still wearing masks and/or practicing physical distancing in indoor public places.)

As I see it, the issue is that unvaccinated people have a higher risk of requiring hospitalization if the contract Covid. Then you are posing a risk not only to healthcare workers but also to those who cannot get other needed medical services because hospitals are overwhelmed. So the implications of not getting vaccinated can hurt the general public as we are seeing in many areas with low vaccination rates.

While I may not agree on some of the reasons, I understand people fear of or not wanting to be vaccinated...and can accept that as long as they mask up and physically distance themselves. We all need to do our part in some fashion,
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
8,096
As I see it, the issue is that unvaccinated people have a higher risk of requiring hospitalization if the contract Covid. Then you are posing a risk not only to healthcare workers but also to those who cannot get other needed medical services because hospitals are overwhelmed. So the implications of not getting vaccinated can hurt the general public as we are seeing in many areas with low vaccination rates.

^ This needs to be emphasized.

Across the nation, healthcare workers are walking off the job. They are frustrated, angry, and burned out from caring for covid patients for 19 months. They are saying it is the stubbornly unvaccinated who contributed to the latest surge that are responsible for healthcare workers leaving the job.

The two hospitals in my town have been over capacity for 2 weeks. No rooms in ICU (all covid patients) and all other emergency patients are stuffed into hallways. The medical directors have spoken on TV that their facilities are no longer able to provide adequate care to any of their patients. This is the same message given by hospitals in the surrounding counties and I've seen the same reports on the news from hospitals around the country.

Waiting for long term studies of the vaccine safety? STFU and get the jab.
Listening to Tucker Carlson's medical advice? STFU and get the jab.
Jab against your religion? STFU, change religions and get the jab.
Any other excuse besides valid medical one? STFU and get the jab.
 
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