Calling Dave Atlas and other old cut specialists!

[surfgirl]

The recent thread on whether or not to re cut an old cut make me think... Dave, can you tell us...When you are appraising an old stone, can you look at it and know whether or not re-polishing the girdle will help or hinder an old cut stone? I''m just curious...Let''s say the stone performs incredibly - amazing scintillation and fire and brilliance. But it''s got some minor light chipping on one part of the girdle. Would there be any reason to take the chance/risk of re-polishing the girdle to get the chips out (assuming they are invisible to the eye)? I''m just curious since you mentioned in that other thread about re polishing to increase the quality of an old stone.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[oldminer]

Many things need to be considered. Each has its own set of consequences depending on the character of each stone, too.

In general, when I say "re-polishing" I mean going over all the facets and facet junctions on the crown, pavilion, or both to make the surface polish better and to increase surface reflection. Only occasionally would I want to take an original bruted girdle and make it faceted or polished. Sometimes this might be useful, but more often than not, the process would create a visible color shift to the lower side, hurt the authenticity of the diamond and not be financially productive. Rarely, I encourage a full recut, but my experience was that a fine old cut has a definite market without this invasive process. Mediocre old cuts mostly remain mediocre when recut although they may find homes sooner if made into commercial, modern diamonds. The brain and the market dictate what is the correct course of action for each dealer or expert.

Fixing chips and nicks in girdles depends on if it is a diamond that you have owned for years or if it is going into the market seeking a new owner. For an existing owner, I''d recommend fixing minor breaks if they look apparent or likely to create a weakness that may bring on damage. If not, then I''d just wait. For a diamond looking for a new owner, any small nick or chip is potentially going to scare the sale away. Just for reasons of selling, I''d say, fix it up first. This is like staging a house, getting it ready to sell, to a new owner. You may have lived in it twenty years without making it right, but when you want it to sell, you might make it look more presentable in some positive manner.

A beautiful old cut is different in character than a beautiful modern cut. The same can be said for a beautiful person of 55 years versus a beautiful person of 20 years old. We look for and appreciate different characterisitics and don''t use exactly the same comparison between them. They may share some characterisitcs, but certainly they will differ in several others. The same for diamonds.

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/21/2007 9:44:03 AM
Author: oldminer
Many things need to be considered. Each has its own set of consequences depending on the character of each stone, too.

In general, when I say ''re-polishing'' I mean going over all the facets and facet junctions on the crown, pavilion, or both to make the surface polish better and to increase surface reflection. Only occasionally would I want to take an original bruted girdle and make it faceted or polished. Sometimes this might be useful, but more often than not, the process would create a visible color shift to the lower side, hurt the authenticity of the diamond and not be financially productive. Rarely, I encourage a full recut, but my experience was that a fine old cut has a definite market without this invasive process. Mediocre old cuts mostly remain mediocre when recut although they may find homes sooner if made into commercial, modern diamonds. The brain and the market dictate what is the correct course of action for each dealer or expert.

Fixing chips and nicks in girdles depends on if it is a diamond that you have owned for years or if it is going into the market seeking a new owner. For an existing owner, I''d recommend fixing minor breaks if they look apparent or likely to create a weakness that may bring on damage. If not, then I''d just wait. For a diamond looking for a new owner, any small nick or chip is potentially going to scare the sale away. Just for reasons of selling, I''d say, fix it up first. This is like staging a house, getting it ready to sell, to a new owner. You may have lived in it twenty years without making it right, but when you want it to sell, you might make it look more presentable in some positive manner.

A beautiful old cut is different in character than a beautiful modern cut. The same can be said for a beautiful person of 55 years versus a beautiful person of 20 years old. We look for and appreciate different characterisitics and don''t use exactly the same comparison between them. They may share some characterisitcs, but certainly they will differ in several others. The same for diamonds.

Nicely said David..., but I would polish or re-cut myself into a twenty year old ''dude"...

(if possible)

Till today..., I have not yet re-cut any type of old-cut into a modern cut..., but a LOT of dealers/cutters have no idea about old-cuts..., all they know is it should be re-cut!!! Pity

 

[surfgirl]

Thanks gentlemen! I dont think I''d want the girdle re polished, though it seems de riguer with some places. I think one of the more popular vintage stone shops seems to always recommend polishing the girdle if there are chips so I wondered what your thoughts were on that. Personally, I''ve thought about the girdle only, though the chips are very light, there is one point where the chip was just underneath the girdle (on the plane facing downward) and that concerns me as a potential weak spot (I had a dream last night that that piece snapped right off my ring). But I''m very hesitant to do anything about it for fear of changing the incredible existing beauty of the stone. I think I''ll leave it for now. But if I''m ever near Philly, I''ll make an appt. to bring it in for a consult. Thanks!

DG, I think many of us would like a little "polishing" around the edges now and then!

 

[oldminer]

In the time of the 80's and 90's, when I was actively trading in gems and diamonds, I found high grade old cut diamonds generally more valuable as they were in Europe. In the USA the better ones were mostly bought by dealers to get instantly recut. The "jewelry history" of Europe is far older than in the USA and many old mountings need authentic old center diamonds to replace missing ones during restoration. The mass market style of the USA wanted a more standardized, modern cut for their advertising and consumers didn't have such large amounts of old family jewels which need old stones replaced.

Trapped inside every old cut diamond is a potential smaller modern cut. At the very least, an old cut is worth whatever the potential modern cut would be valued at , less recut costs. However, on the basis of relative rarity and unbalanced demand, an old cut can oftern bring an unexpeected premium over the recut potential. Dealers who offer to buy old cut diamonds from consumers often say the old cut "needs" recutting to meet its real value knowing the consumer cannot cut the diamond themselves. This serves to make the consumer more ready to sell the diamond and allows the buyer to make their profit. There is nothing wrong with making a fair profit, but many old cuts have been bought under the pretense that they only have a market if they are recut. We have known for years this is a false premise, but even to today you can hear such stories being told to unknowing consumer sellers.

The vast majority of US consumers want to have something "regular" that meets average expections. They want a nice modern cut diamond. A far smaller number want or might accept a diamond which does not fit the norms of cut standards. It is much the same with automobiles where the vast majority go for standard vehicles like a Camry while the fringe look for the off-beat like a Smart, Lamborghini, or Robin. The center of a market is pretty simple, but the fringe is widely diverse and unusual. Probably only a few of you will know what a Smart of a Robin is. When you don't care, it doesn't matter to you. Diamonds are a lot like that, too.

I don't mind if you recut an old cut to a modern configuration, if that is exactly what suits you best. Its the Camry approach.
I do object to the tactic which attempts to convince you that an old cut is by necessity ugly or nearly valueless unless it is recut. Making you feel that you'll stand out in some bad way by keeping an old cut as it is by implying you'll become an object of derision which would be like driving the Robin and being told that even your friends laugh at you. Its a fear tactic.

Getting chips, dings and abrasions cleaned up on an old cut stone is a lot less invasive and often a good course of action. It isn't so much a change in value, but a positive step for finding beauty and prolonging the best durability.

 

[oldminer]

This a a "Robin"............................

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/21/2007 12:06:41 PM
Author: oldminer

Getting chips, dings and abrasions cleaned up on an old cut stone is a lot less invasive and often a good course of action. It isn''t so much a change in value, but a positive step for finding beauty and prolonging the best durability.

True..., but there is a way of cleaning these chips, dings and abrasions.

It should be done by a cutter who knows and has experience in these Old-Cuts...

A lot of cutters just recut the girdle and ruin the shapes of these cuts..., usually Old-Cuts have ex thin (knife edge) girdles and once touching them on the polishing wheel they change the outline/shape of these beauties, ending up with a lob-sided shape.
Also..., once re-cutting the girdle..., automatically you open the facet junction (by the girdle) of the upper girdle facets and lower girdle facets (lgf/ugf/halves)..., a professional cutter who wants to do the job correctly will always re-polish the lgf''s/ugf''s bringing their facet junction again to a meet!

 

[drkah]

I love my OMC and have been told by some that I really have a valuable commodity and by several diamond dealers that it must be recut to modern day dimensions to make it saleable. When asked if that would reduce the size they said of course but it is of no value as it is- it''s old fashioned.


Historic preservationists have despaired for decades as magnificent old structures have been demolished and replaced by modern notions of "in" architectural norms. Like aged wine, the dings, sags, cracks and scratches create a unique link to the past- and create a patina and quality that is irreplacable. In my naive gem mind-it would appear that an old stone and setting provide the owner with the same- a link to the past and a sense of ongoing wonder about the journeys the earlier owners and the ring took together.

Thank you Mr. Atlas for being such an inspiring voice in valuing the historic significance of these objects. You are a treasure! Thank you for being so willing to share your genius with us!

 

[Ellen]

Surfgirl, read my lips.


Leave that stone alone.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 11/22/2007 10:07:23 AM
Author: Ellen
Surfgirl, read my lips.



Leave that stone alone.

Ha Ellen! No worries, I'm doing anything right now, I promise! But I had a dream (nightmare actually!) the other night that I lightly touched my ring to some non-hard surface and the entire area where the light chipping is broke off in a big nasty chunk, so I thought I'd ask about that issue here just to see what the options are, and if I should take pre-emptive actions now. I'm of course leaning towards doing nothing right now as I'd hate to do anything that would change how my stone performs.

DG, you mention that cutters with experience helping old cuts remain intact is needed and what you describe - knife edged girdle - is exactly what I have. Is it possible to give us a referral of some cutters whom you think are the best at this? Just so we have a future reference if needed? I think several of us here would be most grateful for that! It would be like knowing who the premier old cut surgeon is...Thanks!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Great thread. Thanks Dave and DG!

Any chance of recutting an aging drummer-gemologist in a way that restores hair?