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60/60 Looking for advice

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
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Feb 17, 2018
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32
Hello there!!

Looking for some help from some 3-D puzzle solvers. I am new to the angle game, but we looked at a diamond today that was exceptionally bright. However, what I am really looking for is some fire and scintillation

The dimensions come out to:

Table 60%
Depth 60.2%
Crown 31.5
Pavillion 41.2
G color, SI2, excellent cut, excellent polish, very good symmetry, no flourecense

Forum, would you mind lending some advice for us. We were getting a price at $4.4k for this, and would like to know if could be a sweet cut and price point.
@John Pollard or @Garry H (Cut Nut) I have learned a lot from your helpful advice here on this forum and appreciate hearing your thoughts as well.

Thanks in advance! :angel:
 

rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
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Hi LuckyLisa1005. Welcome to PS. I'm a fan of 60/60 stones, but they are hard to pick by the numbers. Luckily, you've seen this stone and your eyes told you what I would have. This stone has good brightness, but little fire. That low crown angle is a real driver of that. It likely has good spread for its weight (assuming a not thick girdle).

But, 60/60 stones are fundamentally not going to give the fire of the kind of stone PS often recommends (pasted below).

Typical "ideal" parameters to narrow selection among GIA XXX:
Table: 54-58
Depth: 60-62.3
Crown angle: 34-35.5
Pavilion angle: 40.6-42
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Did you give the carat weight of this stone? Did I miss it?
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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Flat top, highly directional, could be bright, strongly favors brightness over everything else a diamond should do.
Down on fire and scintillation.
Higher potential for chipping.
In other words there are better combos out there.
There are combinations out there that will be just as bright with much higher fire and scintillation.
@Dancing Fire can tell you his real life experience with a flat top.
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
Premium
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Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
This is all great info. I think it be smart for us to go back and see a few other options/ combinations. If we find a diamond with a good table to depth ratio, could that give enough brightness that we should also look the H color?

Thanks again!

Also @tyty333 it was 1.0c
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
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Table 60%
Depth 60.2%
Crown 31.5
Pavillion 41.2
G color, SI2, excellent cut, excellent polish, very good symmetry, no flourecense

Forum, would you mind lending some advice for us. We were getting a price at $4.4k for this, and would like to know if could be a sweet cut and price point.
@John Pollard or @Garry H (Cut Nut) I have learned a lot from your helpful advice here on this forum and appreciate hearing your thoughts as well.
Hi LuckyLisa.

@rockysalamander covered the basics, above.

By the numbers it's a solid candidate for AGS1 light performance. Nice and bright, I'm sure, but the low crown height will indeed limit dispersion, even if the optical precision is above-average. I'd note that GIA used to put a comment about chipping-potential on any diamond where crown-angle was less than 32 degrees, but with that depth it likely has a medium or slightly-thick girdle, which negates that problem.

One problem with GIA data are blind spots due to their averaging and rounding of numbers. The 31.5 crown angle could actually be 31.3-31.6. And the average pavilion angle could be 41.1-41.3. In the most dire case the HCA jumps up to 2.8 due to contrast issues - which I'd agree could be a problem depending on lower-half and star %. There will definitely be a contrast issue away from bright lighting if the lower-half % is 70-something... But read on...

Looking for some help from some 3-D puzzle solvers.
That intro was perfectly-said to set up my disclaimer - =)

Everything I've speculated about above, is based on averaged and rounded 2D data. There is no 3D information on a grading report. Seeing a reflector-image (ideal-scope or ASET) would give far better overall light return and cut-consistency information; but even IS and ASET are limited 2D photos. Putting this 3D puzzle together is only possible with real-life examination or (with limits) by virtual modeling.

Thus...

... we looked at a diamond today that was exceptionally bright. However, what I am really looking for is some fire and scintillation
You came to a very logical conclusion. One supported by the data you have provided. Generally speaking you will want to consider other makes, too, if you wish to see more fire in more situations.
 

valeria101

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Aug 29, 2003
Messages
15,809
.

You must have seen its HCA score. The HCA is guesing that the spread of the diamond is 'Excellent' & all else 'Very Good'. The pont about spread is easy enough to verify (comparing diameters) - & I do not expect .1mm to make any practical difference ...

If the tone had nice optical symmetry (a symmetrical pattern of reflections, face up) I would give it my vote.

2c

Not going to try to guess if & when it might look better than worse than what is expected of AGS000 parameters etc. - too comlicated ...
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
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Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
8A7C1EF6-BF8A-440D-B8A2-FA7052E264F6.png C0496011-15DB-4737-B2B1-7168C926464B.jpeg

I really appreciate the thoroughness in explaining the lighting issues. I am only now trying to train myself - and I really would love to make sure we a get a beautiful ring.
I am unsure what it would take to get a reflector-image. And if that even be worth it more a diamond with this low of a CA.

But at any rate maybe an iPhone photo :/ :roll could help- if just to confirm what has already been said.

We already made sure to go back Wednesday and see what other options she may have.
Ideally, might you tell us what dimensions would help narrow the options down- and at around our 4.2k-4.4k price point? Would it worth it to go down to H and below in color?

=)2
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
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@rockysalamander provided a range, above. With respect to my reptilian friend, I added some personal revisions in blue if you wish to compare something with potential for similar brightness with more dispersion and balanced contrast. Use them or lose them.

Table: 54-58 [JP: 54-57]
Depth: 60-62.3
Crown angle: 34-35.5 [JP: > 34.9 only if PA is 40.6]
Pavilion angle: 40.6-42 [JP: If GIA report I'd stick to 40.8 max]
[JP: Lower halves 75-80, Stars 45-50, Girdle TN-MED, ]
In the spirit of my post above, these are conceptual 2D numbers. The basic geometry will increase the potential for broader dispersion. But how much fire your eyes will detect also depends on cut-consistency and lighting environment.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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Crown angle: 34-35.5 [JP: > 34.9 only if PA is 40.6] Without images yea maybe, with reflector images ignore what John said :}
Pavilion angle: 40.6-42 [JP: If GIA report I'd stick to 40.8 max] 42 was a typo, 41 max. 40.8 is too conservative for me.
41 pavilion generally works well with 34-34.6 crown over that need reflector images.
In general the bigger the table the fewer angle combinations work with it.
But the easy way is to use the HCA and maybe an IS or ASET scope.
The HCA will help you weed them out. While not perfect it is pretty good.
The HCA app is available in the Android app store and the the website version works on an iphone.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Buying an ASET or IS scope would help even more when shopping in person:
USA
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/
Outside the US:
https://ideal-scope.com/shop/?product_order=date&product_sort=asc
 
Last edited:

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
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This is the challenge of clumsy 2D numbers.

If the goal is increasing potential for dispersion, while keeping similar brightness, there are some conceptual differences between Karl's input and my own.

I was admittedly more conservative (tip of the hat to Karl), mainly due to this comment:
I am unsure what it would take to get a reflector-image.
 

valeria101

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 29, 2003
Messages
15,809
.

The stone does seem to have a nicely symmetrical pattern, as I have asked for in the post above. I am seeing a little more in the picture - naturals on the girdle, and darker star facets (painting ? - I am not good enough at this to know from one picture with the diamond in a random position, glarng sunlight, just guessing) which suggest that you might want to see one of the straightforward RBC that everyone else is recommending.
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
Premium
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Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
Hi @John Pollard @rockysalamander ,

Thank you for all your advice. We went back to look at some other options just now. It does seem that at that price point 4.4K we found one of the best diamond she had on hand. I asked what other options she might be able to still get, that had the portions you both mentioned above.

What I need to know now is that at price (4.4) do we have to sacrifice on 'fire' to get something that is still a good deal. She mentioned she did have another options but it is a bit of a jump.

Our main question is... at 4.4k should we look for a better option ? so we get that fire? Or is our original, posted above, 1 carat [ G color] diamond a good compromise?

This is the OTHER option she gave us (that is a jump up in price) is pictured below 1.03carat [ H color]

Thanks for ALL you help. It is really extremely helpful for us <3

upload_2018-2-21_13-51-5.png



@rockysalamander
Table: 54-58 [JP: 54-57]
Depth: 60-62.3
Crown angle: 34-35.5 [JP: > 34.9 only if PA is 40.6]
Pavilion angle: 40.6-42 [JP: If GIA report I'd stick to 40.8 max]
[JP: Lower halves 75-80, Stars 45-50, Girdle TN-MED, ]
 
Last edited:

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
2,259
What's the clarity of this H? *I like the higher crown on this one (13.3%) and I think the angles would be more favorable than the first one. Did you run through the HCA?

How much of a "bump" from 4.4?

Can they get an ASET or idealscope image?
 

rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
4,933
There is no single, simple answer here. Every diamond buyer, at least those without infinite means, needs to find a balance among their needs. I'm going to turn this question around, what could you afford at $4500 and $5000, has a balance of fire and brilliance and keep color J or above? The big "C" I flexed was color. You were already looking at SI stones, so these hold budget fixed and flex color. Maybe this will offer some concrete options to consider?

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4367988 {this might be the most unflattering lighting in the history of JA H colored diamonds! There is a blemish on the edge of the table, but this keeps the color at H and size at 1 carat; angles are good; 6.42 mm}

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.91-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3671048 {you greatly improve clarity and drop color and size a bit. The central inclusion is a cavity right in the center, which will never look worse than this video, but will be visible to close inspection. Lovely stone. For your budget and needs, I like this quite a bit; 6.22mm}

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-j-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3538348 {another drop to J color, but VVS1 with great numbers. Small table. wish the crown was slightly higher, but that is a minor complaint; 6.22mm}

If you can raise your budget to $5k, here are other options.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.03-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2274062 {J color, largest I can find. Good angles. lovely clarity. 6.45mm)

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947620.htm {.94 J VS1, 6.3 mm}
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
:appl:These are wounderful recommendations. After looking at your recs the clarity very much stands out and I may have to think about the color... Btw... that “bump” was almost $700+ and while it had great dimensions- we will have to wait til Next week to know how off-putting the crystals in the center will look.

At any rate, since I can’t PM ya and we have really learned so much from each of your posts....I’m gonna do it one last time - and see if I’m getting more so on the right track with this. And can take off with a bit more knowledge in tow.

Thanks immensely for all this help!!! We have been using all the advice you’ve so kindly shared.
7676D8C5-8AA1-4DEE-8254-FA96EC041E31.jpeg

995F8612-4677-47F3-9E77-164F90F5C806.jpeg

 

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rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
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May 20, 2016
Messages
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This is better! For a stone with fire and with a profile that has some shape, I like the table between 54-57.5 with the other angles being those I noted in the cheat-sheet. I also personally prefer "chubby arrows" to give the stone better contrast. So, my ideal has lower girdle facets at 75-77%. The high clarity the listing above was really an artifact of what was available in your budget that had inclusions that I felt wouldn't be an issue. I often suggest SI stones. Visual acuity (and access to microscopes at work) vary. I actually quite like looking at inclusions under the scope.

But, here is where I would come to a full stop. In SI stone, clouds need to be carefully considered. Think of clouds as clouds of sleet. That sleet can vary in size and density. Now, imagine aiming a very strong light through that cloud to a mirror on the other side. You can imagine that some of the light is reflected off the sleet into random directions and lost to the viewer (dispersion). Some makes it the mirror and is lost on the return. Some makes it back to the viewer. If the clouds is very dispersed with a few bits of sleet it is less of an issue than if they are dense or large. The result is that the stone can look hazy or foggy since light is shooting off into random direction without proper reflection. So, anytime I see clouds either as a grade-setting inclusion or a note in SI stone, that stone will need to be carefully reviewed before financial commitment. So, if I had seen this stone online, even with a smaller table, I would not have recommended it unless it could be viewed by a trusted vendor. If this was the only or best option for your budget, maybe its worth pursuing. Part of why I listed so few SI2s above is not that I didn't look, but that they are SI2 for a reason. But, a few months ago we PSers found a stunning SI2 that got an posted an incredible stone within budget. A lot of PS member has eye-clean SI2 super-ideals (HighPerformanceDiamonds, WF, BrianGavin, etc.), so there is no reason to not consider them with caution.

Feather means a surface breaking crack. I worry about location, size, visibility. This feather is pretty visible and large. That itself would not bother me, but its location with those features is in an area of a diamond you frequently will smack. Diamonds chip. So, that location would give me pause.

Twinning wisps are hotly debated. To me, they are "good" in that they tend to be pretty hard to see in every angle (unlike a feather that is usually visible from all angles). They are not good in some cases as they can cause light dispersion (just like the cloud above, but think about a string of spaghetti instead of sleet). If this was a VS1 with these twinning wisps and no feather or cloud, they would not bother me.

upload_2018-2-22_6-55-57.png
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
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Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
So we are going to check out the diamond below. It maybe be around $5.2k

Have been told it is ‘eye-clean’
By checking it out -I know to look for where the feathering may be located. And if the crystal :???: inclusions will have a big negative impact.

Is there any other opinions you can give on this? It’s within the TIC range. But the girdle is thin-medium. With this large of a table is concern for chipping a major red flag??
@rockysalamander @ringo865 @John Pollard

Hi @John Pollard @rockysalamander ,

Thank you for all your advice. We went back to look at some other options just now. It does seem that at that price point 4.4K we found one of the best diamond she had on hand. I asked what other options she might be able to still get, that had the portions you both mentioned above.

What I need to know now is that at price (4.4) do we have to sacrifice on 'fire' to get something that is still a good deal. She mentioned she did have another options but it is a bit of a jump.

Our main question is... at 4.4k should we look for a better option ? so we get that fire? Or is our original, posted above, 1 carat [ G color] diamond a good compromise?

This is the OTHER option she gave us (that is a jump up in price) is pictured below 1.03carat [ H color]

Thanks for ALL you help. It is really extremely helpful for us <3

upload_2018-2-21_13-51-5.png
 

LuckyLisa1005

Rough_Rock
Premium
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Feb 17, 2018
Messages
32
It’s an SI2


What's the clarity of this H? *I like the higher crown on this one (13.3%) and I think the angles would be more favorable than the first one. Did you run through the HCA?

How much of a "bump" from 4.4?

Can they get an ASET or idealscope image?
 
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