4.36 ct. RB diamond......HELP, should I get it?

[andrea1216]

I posted a couple of days ago with the info. on a few AGS and GIA 3.5 carat diamonds. I was thinking about purchasing a couple of diamonds online and possibly choosing one. I am looking for something eye clean and near colorless. With a budget between 30k and 40k, I was looking at AGS or GIA I, SI2, ideal cut.

Today, I went to a local jeweler that I have been back and forth with. He now has a 4.36 ct. G, SI1, excellent cut that I negotiated him down to $34k. I understand that it is an EGL and is off by a few points, but it seems like a great stone for a great price. I have looked at many stones of all kinds, so I feel somewhat qualified to judge. It faces up at probably an I, slightly close to a J, but is cut so well that it appears very white on the top. You only see a very little yellow if you look at it from the side. It is probably a true SI2, but no occlusions are visible with the naked eye. It has black carbon that you can only see through a loop. It has a small feather that cannot be seen with the naked eye, but it is all the way on the side and can be covered by a prong.

Most important of all, this diamond sparkles brilliantly. I took it out in the natrual sunlight and it what very white and sparkly! I guess I just want to make sure the stone is priced right before I buy it. I understand that EGL is not a desirable certification and is not very accurate. However, they are also less money. What do you think? Here is the information off the EGL International report:

4.36 Ct
G color
SI1
Excellent Cut
Excellent Polish
Excellent Symmetry
No Fluoresence
"DiaScript" appears on the girdle
8 Hearts & Arrows
"Ideal Cut" inspired by Marcel Tolkowsy
Table width: 59%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavillion Height: 44%
Total Depth: 62.3%

 

[ame]

I posted a couple of days ago with the info. on a few AGS and GIA 3.5 carat diamonds. I was thinking about purchasing a couple of diamonds online and possibly choosing one. I am looking for something eye clean and near colorless. With a budget between 30k and 40k, I was looking at AGS or GIA I, SI2, ideal cut.

Today, I went to a local jeweler that I have been back and forth with. He now has a 4.36 ct. G, SI1, excellent cut that I negotiated him down to $34k. I understand that it is an EGL and is off by a few points, but it seems like a great stone for a great price. I have looked at many stones of all kinds, so I feel somewhat qualified to judge. It faces up at probably an I, slightly close to a J, but is cut so well that it appears very white on the top. You only see a very little yellow if you look at it from the side. It is probably a true SI2, but no occlusions are visible with the naked eye. It has black carbon that you can only see through a loop. It has a small feather that cannot be seen with the naked eye, but it is all the way on the side and can be covered by a prong.

Most important of all, this diamond sparkles brilliantly. I took it out in the natrual sunlight and it what very white and sparkly! I guess I just want to make sure the stone is priced right before I buy it. I understand that EGL is not a desirable certification and is not very accurate. However, they are also less money. What do you think? Here is the information off the EGL International report:

4.36 Ct
G color
SI1
Excellent Cut
Excellent Polish
Excellent Symmetry
No Fluoresence
"DiaScript" appears on the girdle
8 Hearts & Arrows
"Ideal Cut" inspired by Marcel Tolkowsy
Table width: 59%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavillion Height: 44%
Total Depth: 62.3%

I do not care for the 59% table....

 

[slg47]

EGL is not a deal for consumers, period. What about this 4 ct AGS0 in your budget?
http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=109577713&flag=ps

 

[Haven]

There is a reason EGL stones cost less money. And there's also a reason this very large RB was sent to EGL and not GIA or AGS.

I'd buy the 4.01 ct slg posted for you.

I understand the temptation to buy what's in front of you because it looks good enough *despite* what you know about EGL. Jewelers can be persuasive, and all those little flashes of light from the stone can be even more so. However, this is a really large purchase, don't you want to buy the best?

 

[Haven]

I put the numbers into the HCA. It scored a 5.5: Good, only if price is your main criterion.
I'm guessing you care about more than just price, right?

(By the way, does it really say "cutlet" on the HCA results? No wonder so many get it wrong!)

 

[ariel144]

I have been shopping for diamonds for a while and when an EGL diamond is regraded by GIA with different color the price usually stays the SAME. So when people say that EGL is cheaper they are mistaken. I have seen the same diamond listed with an EGL and GIA grade and the price is the same. Usually the clarity is off one grade and sometimes not. The most important part of the diamond is the cut and EGL can grade diamonds with a great make/cut and if they face up white and eye clean and you like the look of the stone then that is ALL that is important.

It sounds like you have shopped a lot and so have done your homework and you have a very sparkly diamond for the price that faces up eye clean and white.

I bought a 2.10 EGL radiant F SI2 several years ago...it had a perfect cut for a radiant and came from a reputable jeweler. I had strangers compliment me on my ring which I had custom made and friends who had expensive diamonds commented on how beautiful my diamond was...so there.

If you want some professional opinions on EGL vs GIA AGS then here are some interesting and surprising articles. EGL USA is pretty accurate these days anyway....but EGL INTL can be 2-3 color grades off and one clarity grade off. PLUS the maker would NOT inscribe his trade name on the diamond if it did not represent his line well.
Good for you finding a 4+ carat diamond for under $35k. It sounds lovely. My 2 carat faced up large like a 3 carat without being spready. The more education you have when purchasing a diamond, the more confident you will be in your purchase.

But without being tested for light performance you cannot know for sure. If you contact GOG they will find you the best 4c diamond for the price and run it thru many tests for light performance. Also there is a guy who searches for the best diamond at the best price...he even goes to the cutters directly to see what they have...interesting.
http://www.bestdiamondsearch.com/

I would see what GOG and this other guy can find and then make your decision.

Good luck on your search for the best diamond you can afford.

Diamond Grading studies
http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/3326-egl-vs-gia/

http://www.adylon.com/content/articles/2007_case_study.shtml
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading

http://therealscooponbuyingdiamonds.blogspot.com/2008/11/gia-vs-egl-certification-real-truth.html

 

[Dancing Fire]

if i had a budget of $34K it'll be a AGS or GIA stone.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I have been shopping for diamonds for a while and when an EGL diamond is regraded by GIA with different color the price usually stays the SAME. So when people say that EGL is cheaper they are mistaken.

Actually, it is worse than that. Usually, a diamond will cost LESS with a GIA report than it will with an EGL report. That is why the diamond was sent to EGL to begin with -- because the vendor can sell it for more money.

It is not only cut and color that are issues, but cut grading too is very lax by EGL. Consumers don't focus on that enough when they try to "equate" an EGL stone with GIA comps.

 

[ariel144]

I have been shopping for diamonds for a while and when an EGL diamond is regraded by GIA with different color the price usually stays the SAME. So when people say that EGL is cheaper they are mistaken.

Actually, it is worse than that. Usually, a diamond will cost LESS with a GIA report than it will with an EGL report. That is why the diamond was sent to EGL to begin with -- because the vendor can sell it for more money.

It is not only cut and color that are issues, but cut grading too is very lax by EGL. Consumers don't focus on that enough when they try to "equate" an EGL stone with GIA comps.

I have not studied the grading of round brilliant cut diamonds like have the other cuts, but I was told that The vendors send their stones to GIA because they can get a higher price for them with a GIA report. If they don't think they can get at least a SI2 grade from GIA then they send it to EGL. Of course this thread is on a brilliant cut diamond.

I've seen some really badly cut stones graded by GIA and cut is king. They just grade what is sent to them, it does not make the stone better or worse. It is simply a grading report...not a recommendation of a "good" or "better" diamond. My jeweler stated that he has seen SI2 GIA graded stones that the clarity was worse than my SI2 EGL graded stone.

I suggest you read the studies done in the articles I posted above. Very interesting.

But AGS is the best grading lab by far. Some professional just posted an article on PS on AGS about how superior they are in many ways. GIA and AGS grade stricter on color and clarity usually but cut is king and cut is not matter of opinion but technical facts. measurements of depth, table, angles are not subjective although they can vary just slightly. There are many well cut EGL stones and many badly cut GIA stones out there especially when you are looking for a chunky cut cushion or OMC...I've seen some really shallow GIA stones in those cuts that cannot possibly be good looking diamonds IMO.

Contrary to your position, all EGL graded stones are not ugly badly performing diamonds....that is my main point.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="ariel144|1330747082|I've seen some really badly cut stones graded by GIA and cut is king. They just grade what is sent to them, it does not make the stone better or worse. It is simply a grading report...not a recommendation of a "good" or "better" diamond. My jeweler stated that he has seen SI2 GIA graded stones that the clarity was worse than my SI2 EGL graded stone.

.[/quote]


then ask him to send it to GIA lab ...

 

[Haven]

Contrary to your position, all EGL graded stones are not ugly badly performing diamonds....that is my main point.

While this may be true, the OP asked us about a very specific EGL graded stone, and this specific stone is not a top performer. Not even close.

 

[Imdanny]

if i had a budget of $34K it'll be a AGS or GIA stone.

Period.

 

[MyDiamondSparkles]

Does the jeweler have a comparably sized diamond that is GIA or AGS 000 (no matter what the price) that you can compare the EGL stone with. Maybe side by side there will be a huge difference and maybe there won't. And maybe that will matter to you and maybe it won't.

 

[sna77]

Here's an example of an EGL stone from a recent thread:

bored waiting for the WF pics to come in, so I've been surfing around at random EGL stones.

2.7 ct D VS2 for $30k and a 0.7 on the HCA. Ha, I mean even if its an F / SI1, that's pretty good.

http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=103403464&flag=ps
http://www.abazias.com/certtemp/103403464.jpg

And the response from the vendor when the member inquired about the stone:

So they got back to me:

------
Hello [twinkie],
Thank you for contacting Abazias. Stock number 103403464--2.76ct round D VS2 EGL is available but will not be a GIA F/SI1 or better. All diamonds are priced according to their true qualities and this diamond is priced like a G color, SI2 clarity stone. The diamond cutter also said it has a mild haze which is accounted for in the price. Some EGL certified stones will be only two grades lower in color and one grade lower in clarity in comparison to what has been reported on the certifcate but price will be the biggest indicator of quality. If the price of the EGL diamond is lower than a comparable weight GIA stone of F color, SI1 clarity you can anticipate the color and clarity to be even lower than average for EGL. EGL is unfortunately very inconsistent with their grading. Please contact me with any questions or if you need further assistance with your search.
Thanks again and I look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Katie.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="sna77|1330824438|
------
Hello [twinkie],
Thank you for contacting Abazias. Stock number 103403464--2.76ct round D VS2 EGL is available but will not be a GIA F/SI1 or better. All diamonds are priced according to their true qualities and this diamond is priced like a G color, SI2 clarity stone. The diamond cutter also said it has a mild haze which is accounted for in the price. Some EGL certified stones will be only two grades lower in color and one grade lower in clarity in comparison to what has been reported on the certifcate but price will be the biggest indicator of quality. If the price of the EGL diamond is lower than a comparable weight GIA stone of F color, SI1 clarity you can anticipate the color and clarity to be even lower than average for EGL. EGL is unfortunately very inconsistent with their grading. Please contact me with any questions or if you need further assistance with your search.
Thanks again and I look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Katie.[/quote][/quote]


every newbie should read thee above post before considering EGL stones.

 

[slg47]

Here's an example of an EGL stone from a recent thread:

bored waiting for the WF pics to come in, so I've been surfing around at random EGL stones.

2.7 ct D VS2 for $30k and a 0.7 on the HCA. Ha, I mean even if its an F / SI1, that's pretty good.

http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=103403464&flag=ps
http://www.abazias.com/certtemp/103403464.jpg

And the response from the vendor when the member inquired about the stone:

So they got back to me:

------
Hello [twinkie],
Thank you for contacting Abazias. Stock number 103403464--2.76ct round D VS2 EGL is available but will not be a GIA F/SI1 or better. All diamonds are priced according to their true qualities and this diamond is priced like a G color, SI2 clarity stone. The diamond cutter also said it has a mild haze which is accounted for in the price. Some EGL certified stones will be only two grades lower in color and one grade lower in clarity in comparison to what has been reported on the certifcate but price will be the biggest indicator of quality. If the price of the EGL diamond is lower than a comparable weight GIA stone of F color, SI1 clarity you can anticipate the color and clarity to be even lower than average for EGL. EGL is unfortunately very inconsistent with their grading. Please contact me with any questions or if you need further assistance with your search.
Thanks again and I look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Katie.

sna thank you for posting that...I added some bold text above

 

[ariel144]

Contrary to your position, all EGL graded stones are not ugly badly performing diamonds....that is my main point.

While this may be true, the OP asked us about a very specific EGL graded stone, and this specific stone is not a top performer. Not even close.

Yes, that is why I stated that she should look for a high performer from GIA or AGS with her budget, or at least have the jeweler to send it off to be graded by AGS before she buys it. Cut is everything, and my point was that EGL does grade some well cut diamonds. Obviously the one she found does not perform well.

 

[andrea1216]

Since I originally posted about this diamond last week, I have taken a look at several more stones. I took the advice and looked at a "high performing" AGS triple zero ideal cut diamond side by side. The AGS was a 3.19 carat, I, SI2. Just like the EGL 4.36 carat, it is eye clean and sparkles brilliantly. In fact, from the top there is hardly any difference in color. From the side, the AGS looks 1 to 1.5 shades whiter. Other than the slight difference in color, the only difference is size.They are both equally brilliant. I understand everyones concerns about the 4.36 carat being an EGL. However, it seems that the EGL is priced right and the price reflects the color being off. Here are the specs of the 4.36 again and the specs of the AGS. Again, they are both round brilliant

4.36 EGL graded
G color (looks more like an I, possibly a very good J, but faces up extremely white)
SI2 (eye clean, black carbon only visible through a loop and a small feather on the table where it can be hidden by a prong)
Excellent cut, hearts & arrows (59% table)
price: $34,000

3.26 AGS graded
I color (true I)
SI2 (eye clean)
Triple zero, ideal cut (56.5% table)
price: $39,000

I guess I am wondering if others think the price is good enough that I can go on how the diamond looks in person. I feel very good about the fact that it looks amazing, even when next to an AGS, I, SI2 diamond. I am so ready to have a diamond back on my finger! What do you think?

 

[Enerchi]

It is still EGL. I highly suggest you go for GIA. Your budget is such that there MUST be something in the GIA realm that will suit your requirements.

EGL is soft on grading. If you are Ok with that... buyer beware. When you are spending that much money - "You get what you pay for"

Recommendations on PS will be to stick with GIA.

 

[sna77]

Since I originally posted about this diamond last week, I have taken a look at several more stones. I took the advice and looked at a "high performing" AGS triple zero ideal cut diamond side by side. The AGS was a 3.19 carat, I, SI2. Just like the EGL 4.36 carat, it is eye clean and sparkles brilliantly. In fact, from the top there is hardly any difference in color. From the side, the AGS looks 1 to 1.5 shades whiter. Other than the slight difference in color, the only difference is size.They are both equally brilliant. I understand everyones concerns about the 4.36 carat being an EGL. However, it seems that the EGL is priced right and the price reflects the color being off. Here are the specs of the 4.36 again and the specs of the AGS. Again, they are both round brilliant

4.36 EGL graded
G color (looks more like an I, possibly a very good J, but faces up extremely white)
SI2 (eye clean, black carbon only visible through a loop and a small feather on the table where it can be hidden by a prong)
Excellent cut, hearts & arrows (59% table)
price: $34,000

3.26 AGS graded
I color (true I)
SI2 (eye clean)
Triple zero, ideal cut (56.5% table)
price: $39,000

I guess I am wondering if others think the price is good enough that I can go on how the diamond looks in person. I feel very good about the fact that it looks amazing, even when next to an AGS, I, SI2 diamond. I am so ready to have a diamond back on my finger! What do you think?

The simple fact is that if this stone was GIA Ex or AGS 0 worthy, it would have been sent there for grading. Tell your jeweler if he is so confident in the stone, to send it to AGS for grading ($250). He'll have it back in a week, and you'll know the true value of the stone. They'll even grade the cut.

That stone scored really, really poorly on the HCA, which would raise a red flag immediately. You need expert, trained eyes to properly evaluate this stone--not yours (no offense meant).

For further reference you can check out the 2.0F/SI cushion thread that just happened. EGL said it was Excellent cut--AGS said it was "Good."

In diamond cuts, "good" = "poor."

 

[andrea1216]

I have researched the grading criteria for AGS and GIA. According to what I have found, it would be an AGS or GIA "very good" cut. Again, I understand that I am not getting a G, excellent cut diamond. However, it still seems priced right for a I, very good cut diamond. As long as you are realistic about the diamond, is it really wrong to buy an EGL diamond? What can be wrong with the cut or look of the diamond if it looks great when physically compared side by side with an AGS ideal cut diamond?

 

[andrea1216]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

 

[slg47]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

most of us on PS would not spend even $2700 let alone $27000 on a non-excellent cut diamond

 

[Amys Bling]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

most of us on PS would not spend even $2700 let alone $27000 on a non-excellent cut diamond

So true.

 

[decodelighted]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

most of us on PS would not spend even $2700 let alone $27000 on a non-excellent cut diamond

I don't agree. AT ALL. If you compare something IN PERSON to a "super ideal" etc -- and decide that you
a) love the less ideal stone
and
b) can't fathom the difference in $$ between the two for the amount of visual difference in cut quality only
and
c) don't buy into "mind clean"-ness

GO FOR IT. I get so weary of people seemingly trying to brainwash newbies into their very specific quirks. Inform, great. Opine, fabulous. But sweeping statements about how none of "us" would do this or that --- A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

Not to mention - entirely inaccurate. Just look at all the antique stones people are buying these days. CLAMORING OVER. And other shapes that don't have "ideal" specs.

Buy what you love. If it makes you swoon to have a bigger rock & the subtle difference in cut & GEEZ lab pedigree don't bother YOU. Y.O.U. .... you know what to do.

 

[canuk-gal]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

most of us on PS would not spend even $2700 let alone $27000 on a non-excellent cut diamond

I don't agree. AT ALL. If you compare something IN PERSON to a "super ideal" etc -- and decide that you
a) love the less ideal stone
and
b) can't fathom the difference in $$ between the two for the amount of visual difference in cut quality only
and
c) don't buy into "mind clean"-ness

GO FOR IT. I get so weary of people seemingly trying to brainwash newbies into their very specific quirks. Inform, great. Opine, fabulous. But sweeping statements about how none of "us" would do this or that --- A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

Not to mention - entirely inaccurate. Just look at all the antique stones people are buying these days. CLAMORING OVER. And other shapes that don't have "ideal" specs.

Buy what you love. If it makes you swoon to have a bigger rock & the subtle difference in cut & GEEZ lab pedigree don't bother YOU. Y.O.U. .... you know what to do.

Yes! Notwithstanding other shapes of stones....no "excellent"/standard.

cheers--Sharon

 

[slg47]

Would all of you feel differently if this diamond was $27,000?

most of us on PS would not spend even $2700 let alone $27000 on a non-excellent cut diamond

I don't agree. AT ALL. If you compare something IN PERSON to a "super ideal" etc -- and decide that you
a) love the less ideal stone
and
b) can't fathom the difference in $$ between the two for the amount of visual difference in cut quality only
and
c) don't buy into "mind clean"-ness

GO FOR IT. I get so weary of people seemingly trying to brainwash newbies into their very specific quirks. Inform, great. Opine, fabulous. But sweeping statements about how none of "us" would do this or that --- A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

Not to mention - entirely inaccurate. Just look at all the antique stones people are buying these days. CLAMORING OVER. And other shapes that don't have "ideal" specs.

Buy what you love. If it makes you swoon to have a bigger rock & the subtle difference in cut & GEEZ lab pedigree don't bother YOU. Y.O.U. .... you know what to do.

Yes! Notwithstanding other shapes of stones....no "excellent"/standard.

cheers--Sharon

I said 'most'. And with all of the OECs...the preference is not for glassy dead-looking stones but for fiery well-cut ones.

 

[decodelighted]

I still STRONGLY disagree w/ "most" ... especially these days. I don't really see many people looking for Super Ideal stones anymore. WAY FEWER than several years ago.

Maybe I should start a poll.


ETA: And in this SPECIFIC case we're talking about a stone she's seen in person .. with her own eyes ... and compared to a AGS 000 "super ideal". But folks are advising her that her eyes don't matter. Aren't *sophisticated* enough to know what SHE will really like??? Seriously? No one thinks that's incredibly patronizing?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

To be fair to what slg said, though, GIA Excellent is a FAR broader range than AGS Ideal cut or Ideal cut/hearts and arrows. She really just said excellent cut, and I agree with that. Most here would not recommend modern round brilliant stones below GIA Excellent. Current pricing causes me to look hard for nice excellent cut stones that do not have the price premium that the super-ideals do when someone has a strict budget.

 

[Gypsy]

Just find a great local INDEPENDENT appraiser and take the stone in. 150 bucks for peace of mind. Make sure they have an ASET and take a look at the stone and judge it for light performance. They will also tell you the "true" color and clarity and give you a value for the stone which will help you judge if you are getting a good deal or not.

If the appraiser thinks it's a great stone-- buy it. If they don't... don't buy it.

Where are you located... let's see if we can recommend an appraiser to you.