Question on FIC diamonds

[Daniel B]

Hello all

This is a good one: If i opt to go with a stone cut for more fire, does that mean it would outshine the white light in white light lighting,( i.e office light)? Any comments would be awesome

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

http://www.diamond-cut.com.au/23_bicfic.htm

FIC''s return a bit less light than TIC and BIC, but a bit more fire

 

[Daniel B]

Thanks Garry, but would it display more fire than white light in office type of lighting ( fluorescent), or does it need the dim lighting to trigger its dispersion? Sorry if i'm not getting this

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Oh, I get you Daniel.

In our diamond grading lab, with loads of fluoro lights suspended from the ceiling, we have boxes of diamonds in reserve stock. If i ask the girls to select out of say 20 stones, the brightest diamonds, and then the firey''st ones, then they are awlays as I could predict re BIC and FIC.

But the most fire would be 3-4 sparkles of fire in FIC vs 1-3 in BIC - there may be 5 - 10 bright white sparkles in each.

Girls prefer FIC every time. But when they get down to choosing with a budget, they usually sacrifice fire for the larger spread of the BIC''s once a budget is imposed.

Ya can ave this 6.3mm 1ct FIC or this 6.5mm 1ct BIC luv - witch''l it be?

 

[Daniel B]

Date: 10/6/2005 7:12:35 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Oh, I get you Daniel.

In our diamond grading lab, with loads of fluoro lights suspended from the ceiling, we have boxes of diamonds in reserve stock. If i ask the girls to select out of say 20 stones, the brightest diamonds, and then the firey''st ones, then they are awlays as I could predict re BIC and FIC.

But the most fire would be 3-4 sparkles of fire in FIC vs 1-3 in BIC - there may be 5 - 10 bright white sparkles in each.

Girls prefer FIC every time. But when they get down to choosing with a budget, they usually sacrifice fire for the larger spread of the BIC''s once a budget is imposed.

Ya can ave this 6.3mm 1ct FIC or this 6.5mm 1ct BIC luv - witch''l it be?

I''ll ave the 6.3mm FIC, and i KNOW Amanda will too! Thanks Garry, been searching for that answer a while now

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Well Daniel, if you are like me and prefer 'things' a little top heavy, yu will love the way these FIC"s poke out

That is one of the hidden pleasures of FIC's that most people only enjoy after they made a purchase.
The poor princess's really miss out in this respect.

BTW these are both to scale - 6.3mm and 6.5mm 1ct stones with the exact same girdle %.

 

[Daniel B]

BINGO

But why''s one really taller than the other? And the table size difference, does that matter?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Each has good propotions and are 6.3mm and 6.5mm respectively.
Smaller tables also contribute to more fire.

 

[strmrdr]

Must resist sexist joke about top heavy and taller in certain positions.
Must not say it.
no no no can not say it.

The example Garry used is an extreme.
fics tend to be top heavy and bottom light which makes up for some of it and a lot of super-ideal combos do not make 6.5mm.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/6/2005 8:23:56 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Smaller tables also contribute to more fire.

16% crown, 53% table AGS0 & ACA.... candidate

LINK

There used to be more with 52-53% tables on that list.

 

[Daniel B]

Thanks for the input guys- Im off to college

-- Any good websites that specialize/carry nice FIC's?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/6/2005 11:06:46 AM
Author: Daniel B


-- Any good websites that specialize/carry nice FIC''s?

There have been a couple of other FIC H&A around here and all were found after some rather long search among the usual lot of H&A ideals. H&A ideals are a pretty specialized niche anyway, I do not know of any shop which may specialzie in even narrower types.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/6/2005 7:55:26 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Well Daniel, if you are like me and prefer ''things'' a little top heavy, yu will love the way these FIC''s poke out

That is one of the hidden pleasures of FIC''s that most people only enjoy after they made a purchase.
The poor princess''s really miss out in this respect.

BTW these are both to scale - 6.3mm and 6.5mm 1ct stones with the exact same girdle %.

Garry
what would be the specs on that FIC? how about the I-scope, how would it look?

 

[Mara]

Good luck finding a FIC or a BIC for that matter...they are far and few between. There's no website or vendor that specializes in carrying them over TIC's or other stones really. I found one randomly when I was first looking many years ago but didn't know what to make of it at the time.

I love a fiery stone but the turnoff for me is the loss of diameter in a FIC. aka the stone looks smaller than a TIC would or a BIC. For me...I do not want to pay for a 1c stone that looks like a .90ct stone just to get a bit more fire. FIC's will hide more in their depth than a TIC or a BIC.

I find that a TIC with the right specs can have a bit more spread like a BIC but still retain that perfect match of brilliance and fire that I love.

It's funny because for me there is ONLY one option if you want a *real* ideal cut. A TIC. I'm sure some will not agree, that's fine, but that is just what I have found my eye prefers, hands down, time after time. But for a pendant I would take a BIC like my old stone because it looks bigger and will flash more white light from it...but unfortunately unless I get an old Euro stone or something, I doubt I'll ever knowingly buy and spend on a FIC unless I got some great deal or it was a resale etc. It just goes against the grain to not 'get' what you pay for (in this instance, the top look).

To say one other thing, when I had a BIC...basically what happened was in situations where the stone should have displayed lots of fire, it didn't display it at all or it displayed it very weakly. So I would venture to say that in a FIC, when you would typically be in a brilliant white light situation aka office lighting, the stone will be lacking for you from a visual perspective. That is what disappointed me with my BIC. It was only in 1/2 the lighting situations that it made me happy.

I almost want to tell you not to make this harder than it needs to be Daniel. You are so concerned with BIC and FIC when in reality you said you just want something to knock your girl's socks off. To me that is a balance of BOTH fire and brilliance and not sacrificing for one or the other, UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR SURE that is what you want aka after seeing stones to know what you are looking out. Just starting out...I'd venture to say you don't know what a FIC looks like vs a BIC etc. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I'd get an amazing ideal cut H&A or similar that will flash fire and brilliance when in the right light surroundings for each of those phenomenons, and call it a day.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/7/2005 2:12:16 AM
Author: Mara

I almost want to tell you not to make this harder than it needs to be Daniel.

He he!

Mara, did you go through different ''kinds'' of H&A at WF''s ?

 

[Daniel B]

Mara- I think you may have persauded me. I was a little concerned about not having the
brilliance w/ a fic, since that is the light that is shown in most lighting. Tolkowski's are that
perfect balance and given the light conditions, the fire will take care of itself. And if i can squeeze another .10 in there, why not. I just perfer fire so i thought in full throttle in that direction. I think a balence of both kinds of light is a wiser decision, So the search continues. . .

Hey anyone, on another note- How am i gonna sneak this ring past the inspections at teh airport? I hope they dont go diggin in my carry-on luggage and say, "Oh, whats this

" and totally ruin my surprise

. We are moving to Ft. Myers, Florida when we graduate in 2 years and im proposing on Sanibel Island (Mid May 2006)

 

[JohnQuixote]

Great thread. Good technical information from Garry and nice, balanced perspective from Mara.

Date: 10/7/2005 2:12:16 AM
Author: Mara

I almost want to tell you not to make this harder than it needs to be Daniel. You are so concerned with BIC and FIC when in reality you said you just want something to knock your girl''s socks off. To me that is a balance of BOTH fire and brilliance and not sacrificing for one or the other, UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR SURE that is what you want aka after seeing stones to know what you are looking out. Just starting out...I''d venture to say you don''t know what a FIC looks like vs a BIC etc. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I''d get an amazing ideal cut H&A or similar that will flash fire and brilliance when in the right light surroundings for each of those phenomenons, and call it a day.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/7/2005 9:17:33 AM
Author: JohnQuixote


Great thread.... balanced perspective from Mara.

Yeah, it''s nice to pick up personal choices and what not, but buying for someone else (i.e. fiancee

) is a different matter. Even if there is no absolute ''best'' among diamonds and opinions will always differ infron tof a lineup of BIC, FIC and who knows what else... for the perfect surprise there has to be a ''perfect'', no-way-to-go-wrong choice. And that''s usually somewhere in the middle. Sometimes I wonder if this is just a matter of rhetoric rather than true diamond technicalities, but regardless - Mara''s balanced take is the right one, IMO.

 

[Kim N]

Mara:

>> Good luck finding a FIC or a BIC for that matter...they are far and few between.

I thought round brilliant diamonds with ideal cuts were the ones often found for sale--am I mistaken in what a BIC means? Isn''t it Brilliant Ideal Cut? How is that different from an ideal cut H&A or any other ideal cut?

Also, I''m not sure if I''m understanding correctly, but does all this information mean that a TIC is an ideal choice because it provides the best balance of brilliance and fire? I have not been able to find a TIC for sale anywhere.

 

[Mara]

Jellybeans, a TIC is what would be typically called an ideal cut stone. It would be something like GOG's H&A or a WF ACA or similar. Of course a TIC does not have to display H&A to be a TIC..but basically it's got the best blend of assets out there, and they are pretty simple to find for a PS'er. aka there are vendors on here who specialize in them.

A FIC is a fiery ideal cut, and a BIC is a brilliant ideal cut. A FIC shows more fire, a BIC more white light. They are usually stones found with what one could consider 'unusual' proportions, aka BIC have larger tables and shallower depths, FIC have larger depths and steeper crowns.

So you probably have seen numerous TIC's for sale...aka 90% of what the PS vendors sell in the search by cut quality will be TIC's.

 

[Regular Guy]

Jellybeans,

These categories are reviewed briefly here in the tutorial on this site. I think virtually all the options you will find in the search by cut database presented here (above under prices) are TICs. Run them through the HCA and see for yourself.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/7/2005 12:40:20 PM
Author: jellybeans

I have not been able to find a TIC for sale anywhere.

These TIC-BIC-FIC are ters used to describe certain ranges of Ideal proportions on the Ideal-Scope and pricescope tutorials. they are not in the dictionary

... yet.

 

[Daniel B]

Date: 10/7/2005 12:40:20 PM
Author: jellybeans
Mara:

>> Good luck finding a FIC or a BIC for that matter...they are far and few between.

I thought round brilliant diamonds with ideal cuts were the ones often found for sale--am I mistaken in what a BIC means? Isn't it Brilliant Ideal Cut? How is that different from an ideal cut H&A or any other ideal cut?

Also, I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly, but does all this information mean that a TIC is an ideal choice because it provides the best balance of brilliance and fire? I have not been able to find a TIC for sale anywhere.

Ideal RB's are everywhere, and readily found for sale. A BIC does mean Brilliant Ideal cut, and its is slightly different from a regular Ideal cut, such that it specializes in yeailding brilliance (white light)-- usually the BIC's have larger tables than most other rounds and shallower crowns.
You are right that TIC's are an ideal choice (to many peple) because it is a perfect balence between Firey Ideal cut (FIC) and Bic's- offering both fire and brilliance (and scntillation)instead of more brilliance or more fire. When you get a BIC for example, you will get less fire and vica versa. TIC's are everywhere, read this http://diamonds.pricescope.com/tolk.asp and get the proportions of a TIC then search for diamonds with those specific characteristics-- they are common diamonds, but are slightly more expensive, too.

 

[Mara]

I wanted to say one more thing on the subject of BIC/TIC/FIC.

BIC's and FIC's are beautiful in their own rights. However, I don't think that everyone on here (consumer wise) has been lucky enough to have viewed something other than a TIC and known what they were looking at. My BIC stone was beautiful, but it wasn't a TIC. When I finally got my TIC from WF...I was stunned at how different and BETTER it was.

That is why I say that unless you have seen diamonds laid out and labeled, aka this is a BIC and a FIC and a TIC, then it's really hard to know what you'd prefer, especially if as Val notes, you are buying for someone else and they won't know either. It's one thing to have owned or seen many diamonds and come to a conclusion on what YOUR EYES love. But quite another to do virtual research and think maybe you want more fire and sacrifice other things to get it. You may not be happy with it as I was not with my BIC.

I firmly do believe that a TIC is the best of both worlds, having seen one world and then the utopia...hehee. I am sure I'd love a FIC but not to lose that carat weight...so I'd only buy one in an old stone like an Old Euro or something where it's meant to be like that and it adds to the beauty of the stone...but I have been lucky enough to own a BIC and then a TIC and the differences were glaring. My husband who had been hearing about me babbling about TIC's for almost a year...and how my BIC was not as good..well I got him an ACA for his wedding ring from WF and that convinced him that I was right. He saw how amazing that little stone was and how it outperformed my BIC in so many ways. So if you have the opportunity to see stones and compare them, it's a fabulous way to become more educated. But I bet if you walked into stores and asked for a BIC or a FIC, they'd ask you if you had taken your medication that morning. Hahaha.

Val...we did see different H&A's in that we saw the Classic ACA and the New Line ACA's side by side and Brian asked for us to pick out which was which. We were right maybe 7 out of 10? The classic have sharper flashes of fire, more icy shards if that makes sense. The New Line seem more flowing in their sparkles. I loved both. I think I have only owned New Lines so far...so it'd be fun to own a Classic at some point..we'll see!

Batman loves TIC's.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/7/2005 11:20:20 AM
Author: valeria101

Yeah, it's nice to pick up personal choices and what not, but buying for someone else (i.e. fiancee

) is a different matter. Even if there is no absolute 'best' among diamonds and opinions will always differ infron tof a lineup of BIC, FIC and who knows what else... for the perfect surprise there has to be a 'perfect', no-way-to-go-wrong choice. And that's usually somewhere in the middle. Sometimes I wonder if this is just a matter of rhetoric rather than true diamond technicalities, but regardless - Mara's balanced take is the right one, IMO.

Think of TIC as the vast majority of sweet looking diamonds.
BICs bookend one side, balanced slightly more toward white light performance.
FICs bookend the other side, balanced slightly more towards colored light performance.

My humble opinion is that with the right TIC you have the best qualities and visual balance.

Pursuant to 'rhetoric...' I think most bipeds walking the planet would think these nuances, like many of the ones we discuss here, are very slight. However, when working amongst thousands of diamonds you do note the differences.

I think Garry would appreciate a comparison to wines. There are Cabs, Merlots and blends that - to a casual drinker - may all taste similar, superior and out of this world. The professional sommelier, however, will note the minute differences for you - as will the professional drinkers.

 

[Daniel B]

With these specs:
60.7%depth

57% table

35° crown

40.9° pav.

Its seems to be a firey stone with the crown, but what about the table (57 is high isnt it? it is compared to 52-53) how would this effect the fire with a larger table like this?

 

[Mara]

57 is not a high table necessarily, but 52 and 53 are a little low in my opinion...

Here are my superpickymaraspecs for selecting diamonds for my hands. Earrings and pendants are different...I think you can give more leeway on things that are seen in a different view/light than engagement ring stones which are scrutinized by all and close up too. Now mind you that alot of other diamonds outside of this realm would be lovely, but having seen a few...I now know what I am looking for.

Table: 54-56 (pref 55%)
Depth: 60.5-61.5 (pref in high 60's..aka 60.9)
Crown Angle: 34.5-34.8 (pref 34.7)
Pav Angle: 40.6-40.8 (pref 40.7)
Culet: None
Girdle: Thin-Med or similar

My stone now is something like 54% table; 60.9% depth, 34.7 crown angle and 40.8 pav angle. It's stunning and I adore it. It will be very hard for me to trade this sucker in!!!

Haha John I would love it if GIA listened to Batman!

 

[Kim N]

Thank you, everyone, for all the explanations. They really helped.

Would this be a "good" TIC? It scores 1.9 on the HCA with four Very Goods and "within TIC range."

Color: G
Clarity: SI1
Depth: 61.2
Table: 57
Crown Angle: 35
Crown %: 15.1
Pavilion Angle: 40.9
Pavilion %: 43.1
Girdle: Medium to Slightly thick Faceted
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: Negligible

Would it have enough fire?

Mara, a lot of these numbers are out of your superpicky ranges.

Would this still be a good stone?

 

[Mara]

Date: 10/7/2005 1:49:09 PM
Author: jellybeans
Thank you, everyone, for all the explanations. They really helped.

Would this be a ''good'' TIC? It scores 1.9 on the HCA with four Very Goods and ''within TIC range.''

Color: G
Clarity: SI1
Depth: 61.2
Table: 57
Crown Angle: 35
Crown %: 15.1
Pavilion Angle: 40.9
Pavilion %: 43.1
Girdle: Medium to Slightly thick Faceted
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: Negligible

Would it have enough fire?

Mara, a lot of these numbers are out of your superpicky ranges.

Would this still be a good stone?

It would probably be a very lovely stone...but I probably wouldn''t buy it for my HAND. That''s just me though. One opinion.

I have some ACA earrings that may have specs slightly close to that stone you posted there. They look stunning...on my ears and they are tiny, 0.38c each. Now blow them up to a 1.6 or a 2c weight and would they still look as good in all lighting situations? It''s hard to say. Human eyes can only pick out enough detail and each set of eyes is different.

One thing I don''t like so much in this stone is the girdle, because a bit of diameter weight will be lost in that slightly thick..also I am not the hugest fan of 35 and 40.9 together, I''d want a little less of a steep crown. BUT again, I would venture to say that you would find this stone beautiful. I probably would too if I saw it on your hand. But part of the fun for me on PS when I am looking for diamonds is to be as particular as possible and see what I can find.

I have been lucky the last two times and gotten exactly what I am looking for and been very happy. Next stone, who knows... I may be more at the mercy of inventory than I''d care to admit.