2.0ct Princess, please help me choose.

[pbizzle]

I have lurked this site for a little over a year (can''t believe it''s been that long!). Very thankful to have a resource like PS available to me...have learned a lot and applaud all the great members this board has. I am finally "pulling the trigger" and need a little help. I am deciding between these two princesses for my princess!

*Diamond #1*
Carat weight: 2.05
Cut: Very Good
Color: H
Clarity: VS1
Depth %: 74.3%
Table %: 72%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.98 x 6.90 x 5.13 mm
Length/width ratio: 1.01

GIA here.

Should I concerned with all those clouds?


*Diamond #2*
Carat weight: 2.01
Cut: Very Good
Color: H
Clarity: VS1
Depth %: 73.1%
Table %: 72%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Very good
Girdle: Slightly thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.91 x 6.87 x 5.02 mm
Length/width ratio: 1.01

GIA here.

Not as good a polish but seems to be pretty clean. This one costs about $700 less than Diamond #1. Which do you think is a better value? I don''t mind spending the extra money if I''m truly getting a lot more bang for the buck. Thank you in advance!

 

[JulieN]

you have absolutely nothing to worry about clouds in a VS1.

about which stone is nicer...do you have pictures?

 

[stone-cold11]

It is not possible for us to tell how a princess perform optically from the numbers. We need at least an IS/ASET to work with.

Else you should try to find AGS0 cut graded princess graded by AGSL. That is a much safer and easier bet.

 

[pbizzle]

JulieN & Stone-cold11,

Thank you for the reply. It's an online purchase via BlueNile...I don't believe they will provide pics or IS/ASET reports unfortunately. I know, I know...it's crazy to go on numbers alone. But I think the specs are good enough that I can't go *that* wrong either way.

 

[Mediterranean]

Date: 12/10/2008 8:58:36 PM
Author: pbizzle
JulieN & Stone-cold11,


Thank you for the reply. It's an online purchase via BlueNile...I don't believe they will provide pics or IS/ASET reports unfortunately. I know, I know...it's crazy to go on numbers alone. But I think the specs are good enough that I can't go *that* wrong either way.

It might pay to wait a little while until something with light performance reports can be found. GIA isn't known for their acumen regarding the grading of princess cut stones.

What is Blue Nile's return policy like? Is it pretty favorable? If you're feeling like these two are your top contenders, why not order them both, and buy your own ASET scope, so you can see both the stone and the ASET image with your own eyes? Send back both, or if one really performs, send back the one you don't want.

If you look under "TOOLS" on this site, you'll find the link to the ASET scope.

The AGS0 is the rating to look for when you're trying to judge a princess's light performance. I haven't seen any GIA graded princess cuts that perform to those standards, in my personal search. I would think that to meet the AGS0 criteria, the stone would have to be cut to AGS0 parameters. That's almost impossible to do "accidentally," so a stone graded by the GIA simply won't perform as well. It just wasn't cut with AGS0 proportions in mind.

Have you tried having WhiteFlash or Good Old Gold source out such a stone for you? It might be a better way to go, dollar-for dollar.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/10/2008 7:30:29 PM
Author: JulieN
you have absolutely nothing to worry about clouds in a VS1.

about which stone is nicer...do you have pictures?

Ditto, we need detailed photos and an ASET image if you can get one.

So glad you have found us helpful, there are a lot of dedicated people in RT who have been doing this a long time and it is nice to hear we are doing a good job!

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 12/10/2008 10:10:31 PM
Author: Mediterranean

It might pay to wait a little while until something with light performance reports can be found. GIA isn't known for their acumen regarding the grading of princess cut stones.

Med, GIA do not grade Princess cut cut performance, these cut performance grading are by the vendors themselves, so depending on who is the vendor, you might get very good performing Princess, for example by GOG, or a dud.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/10/2008 8:58:36 PM
Author: pbizzle
JulieN & Stone-cold11,

Thank you for the reply. It''s an online purchase via BlueNile...I don''t believe they will provide pics or IS/ASET reports unfortunately. I know, I know...it''s crazy to go on numbers alone. But I think the specs are good enough that I can''t go *that* wrong either way.

What can the numbers and the report tell you:

- The stone is a natural, untreated diamond. Good.
- Color, clarity, fluorescence, measurements by GIA, so relatively reliable. Good.
- Both stones are very close-to-square. Good.
- Table is not overly large, like in many princess-cuts. Good sign.

What can the numbers not tell you:

- Is the set-up of the stone somewhat symmetrical? You need a picture an ASET, an IS or a picture in the H&A-viewer for that.
- Does the stone leak light to some extent and in which area of the stone? You need an IS.
- What is the quality, intensity of the light returned? You need an ASET.
- Does the stone have some contrast-pattern as a basis for scintillation? You need an ASET, an IS or a picture in the H&A-viewer.
- Does the stone have 2, 3, 4 or more lines of chevron-facets, which has a big effect on scintillation and observability of fire? You need an actual picture of the stone.
- Was any weight hidden in the stone by extreme asymmetry? You need a full 3D-scan of the stone.

To summarize, on going with the numbers only, you CAN go THAT wrong. This can be avoided by getting the necessary pictures and measurements (at least some of them) or by working with a trustworthy vendor, who can relay the quality of the stone, with the stone in hand.

Live long,

 

[Ellen]

You've gotten some great advice here, and I agree. Fancies just plain need more info.

I took a look around, though I don't know what your budget it. Here's a few I found that should be nice.


Need to ask if eyeclean. Bankwire is discount.

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/4390/ (might ask if this looks square, diameter is super tight, but I imagine it does)

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/5114/


These would receive a 2% PS discount.

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-67218.htm#

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-69232.htm#


And Winfield's has a 2.02 H VS2, but the link to the stone isn't working for me. Here's the listing page. Scroll down a little over halfway. Not sure about Wink's discounts.

http://www.winkjones.com/specials/diamonds.php

 

[hoofbeats95]

I would not buy a princess without the images mentioned above. I just got my WF ACA princess and LOVE it! But I had help on here with choosing one with a great ASET image. Princesses vary widely. My ACA is leaps and bounds above any of the princesses I have seen in the B&M stores before. It''s totally amazing. But without seeing the IS or the ASET you have no idea about the cut and especially for princess that is the MOST important IMO. Sure there are stones at the store that have similar specs as mine - but not the cut. That''s what makes my stone heads and shoulders above those. So I encourage you to consider an ACA or finding stones with the IS or ASET image. Especially when buying this size stone.

 

[Mediterranean]

Date: 12/11/2008 9:42:54 AM
Author: hoofbeats95
I would not buy a princess without the images mentioned above. I just got my WF ACA princess and LOVE it! But I had help on here with choosing one with a great ASET image. Princesses vary widely. My ACA is leaps and bounds above any of the princesses I have seen in the B&M stores before. It's totally amazing. But without seeing the IS or the ASET you have no idea about the cut and especially for princess that is the MOST important IMO. Sure there are stones at the store that have similar specs as mine - but not the cut. That's what makes my stone heads and shoulders above those. So I encourage you to consider an ACA or finding stones with the IS or ASET image. Especially when buying this size stone.

ITA. The only "problem" (if you could even consider it a real problem)that I have with the WF ACA princess cut stones is that there isn't enough stock (especially as you go up in carat size). To be expected, I guess. More $$ to be made cutting OK stones for size than great ones for quality. Hopefully, we're starting to see the market change and respond to the desire for nicely cut fancies. Princesses can be really lovely when they're cut well.

 

[hoofbeats95]

Date: 12/11/2008 11:37:27 AM
Author: Mediterranean

Date: 12/11/2008 9:42:54 AM
Author: hoofbeats95
I would not buy a princess without the images mentioned above. I just got my WF ACA princess and LOVE it! But I had help on here with choosing one with a great ASET image. Princesses vary widely. My ACA is leaps and bounds above any of the princesses I have seen in the B&M stores before. It''s totally amazing. But without seeing the IS or the ASET you have no idea about the cut and especially for princess that is the MOST important IMO. Sure there are stones at the store that have similar specs as mine - but not the cut. That''s what makes my stone heads and shoulders above those. So I encourage you to consider an ACA or finding stones with the IS or ASET image. Especially when buying this size stone.

ITA. The only ''problem'' (if you could even consider it a real problem)that I have with the WF ACA princess cut stones is that there isn''t enough stock (especially as you go up in carat size). To be expected, I guess. More $$ to be made cutting OK stones for size than great ones for quality. Hopefully, we''re starting to see the market change and respond to the desire for nicely cut fancies. Princesses can be really lovely when they''re cut well.

Oh that is true. Didn''t think about that. I''m not use to shopping in that carat range. Though I would think maybe Whiteflash could help out the OP in some ways to finding one that is nearly an ACA? I''m sure they can help in some way. I just love mine and can''t wait to get it back from the jeweler tomorrow.

 

[Mediterranean]

Date: 12/11/2008 11:46:35 AM
Author: hoofbeats95

Date: 12/11/2008 11:37:27 AM

Author: Mediterranean

Date: 12/11/2008 9:42:54 AM

Author: hoofbeats95

I would not buy a princess without the images mentioned above. I just got my WF ACA princess and LOVE it! But I had help on here with choosing one with a great ASET image. Princesses vary widely. My ACA is leaps and bounds above any of the princesses I have seen in the B&M stores before. It''s totally amazing. But without seeing the IS or the ASET you have no idea about the cut and especially for princess that is the MOST important IMO. Sure there are stones at the store that have similar specs as mine - but not the cut. That''s what makes my stone heads and shoulders above those. So I encourage you to consider an ACA or finding stones with the IS or ASET image. Especially when buying this size stone.

ITA. The only ''problem'' (if you could even consider it a real problem)that I have with the WF ACA princess cut stones is that there isn''t enough stock (especially as you go up in carat size). To be expected, I guess. More $$ to be made cutting OK stones for size than great ones for quality. Hopefully, we''re starting to see the market change and respond to the desire for nicely cut fancies. Princesses can be really lovely when they''re cut well.

Oh that is true. Didn''t think about that. I''m not use to shopping in that carat range. Though I would think maybe Whiteflash could help out the OP in some ways to finding one that is nearly an ACA? I''m sure they can help in some way. I just love mine and can''t wait to get it back from the jeweler tomorrow.

I can''t believe you could STAND to be parted with it at ALL! They''re really such a beautiful, beautiful specimen of the princess shape. In person, all the more. I think if the OP calls WF, they can help source out AGS0 stones, I know there''s a dealer who is registered with PS who has a source that ships/sells AGS0 princess stones to the U.S., but I can''t remember who it is for the life of me. I think it''ll take a phone call or two, though, as opposed to looking only at online-stock. It''ll be worth it, though...

 

[pbizzle]

Thank you all for the wonderful information! Coming from a computer background, it''s hard for me to take into consideration things like ASET and Ideal Scope pictures (what, you can''t go on GIA certs alone!??!).

I appreciate you "showing me the light" ...pardon the pun.

It also sounds like, and correct me if I''m wrong, that an I color SI1/SI2 with a favorable ASET and Ideal Scope can, in a lot of cases, be more valuable and look better than a G, H color Vs1/Vs2 with a less-favorable ASET & Ideal Scope.

And as a techie, I think I''ve been relying too much on what you all call online-stock. I''m going to have to pick up a phone, aren''t I!!!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/11/2008 12:29:25 PM
Author: pbizzle
Thank you all for the wonderful information! Coming from a computer background, it's hard for me to take into consideration things like ASET and Ideal Scope pictures (what, you can't go on GIA certs alone!??!).

I appreciate you 'showing me the light' ...pardon the pun.

It also sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that an I color SI1/SI2 with a favorable ASET and Ideal Scope can, in a lot of cases, be more valuable and look better than a G, H color Vs1/Vs2 with a less-favorable ASET & Ideal Scope.

And as a techie, I think I've been relying too much on what you all call online-stock. I'm going to have to pick up a phone, aren't I!!!

Certainly, a well cut diamond will always outshine a poorly cut diamond, this is what gives a diamond its beauty. Colour and clarity are a personal preference, but any colour or clarity grade ( providing it is eyeclean or eyecleanish) will look beautiful if the cut is good. A poorly cut D IF conversely will look like a dull chunk of glass if the cut isn't decent.

 

[Mediterranean]

Date: 12/11/2008 12:29:25 PM
Author: pbizzle
Thank you all for the wonderful information! Coming from a computer background, it's hard for me to take into consideration things like ASET and Ideal Scope pictures (what, you can't go on GIA certs alone!??!).

I appreciate you 'showing me the light' ...pardon the pun.


It also sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that an I color SI1/SI2 with a favorable ASET and Ideal Scope can, in a lot of cases, be more valuable and look better than a G, H color Vs1/Vs2 with a less-favorable ASET & Ideal Scope.


And as a techie, I think I've been relying too much on what you all call online-stock. I'm going to have to pick up a phone, aren't I!!!

But as a techie, you're gonna LOVE playing with the IdealScope and the ASET viewer

I thought those were a great investment. I looked at all the princesses we considered through the, and after you do a little research about what you're looking at, and you get the hang of properly placing the stones for optimal viewing, it's a whole new world.

As far as "value' is concerned...that's a good question. I don't know what the retail market values more. I think carat weight is still the priority for retailers. It's their "most important C" because it seems to affect the price most.

If you mean value for YOUR dollar, regarding your personal purchase, I really do think that in order to get the best stone for what you have to spend, yeah, you should as you say "pick up the phone" (LOL) or at least research sites which routinely post ASET/IS images (or can e-mail them to you). It's an expensive, emotional purchase. You want to make sure you looked at everything you possibly could, so that you can feel as satisfied and happy with your ring as you and she deserve to be!

ETA: ASET/IS images, measurements, etc...are really tools to determine exclusionary criteria. You can narrow the field with these, but I think you should see the stones. And I think you should find a vendor who is amenable to your purchasing on spec, and sending back the one you don't want, because your eye is the FINAL judge. Things that have all the "parameters" in place (AGS0, IS/ASET images that are great, killer measurements) can still be not appealing to the eye for a million reasons. With fancies you gotta take a look in person.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/11/2008 12:29:25 PM
Author: pbizzle
Thank you all for the wonderful information! Coming from a computer background, it''s hard for me to take into consideration things like ASET and Ideal Scope pictures (what, you can''t go on GIA certs alone!??!).

I appreciate you ''showing me the light'' ...pardon the pun.

It also sounds like, and correct me if I''m wrong, that an I color SI1/SI2 with a favorable ASET and Ideal Scope can, in a lot of cases, be more valuable and look better than a G, H color Vs1/Vs2 with a less-favorable ASET & Ideal Scope.

And as a techie, I think I''ve been relying too much on what you all call online-stock. I''m going to have to pick up a phone, aren''t I!!!

If you mean more valuable in $-terms as in the price that you pay, I think that you are wrong.

In a polished diamond, about 80% of the cost (value?) comes from the cost of the rough diamond. Since the rough diamond has no C of Cut yet, this is all about weight, color and clarity. 20% of the cost of a polished diamond depends on the Cut-quality.

Value-wise, in the sense of beauty or light performance, much less than 20% of that is determined by weight, color and/or clarity. It is almost entirely dictated by Cut-quality.

So, a better-cut I-SI1 will probably cost less than a lower cut G-VS1.
But the I-SI1 will be much more performant and thus more valuable for the owner.

I hope that this was not too confusing.

Live long,

 

[hoofbeats95]

Mediterranean - they set the dang thing wrong! I was so sad to take it back I thought about keeping the ugly prongs. But I just couldn''t. So I parted with it. . . for FOUR LONG DAYS.

I have been counting down!

pbizzle - I''m a techie I guess you could say. I develop software. I thought I could just pick by specs. But do a bit more research about princess cuts. They are by far my fav! But they are hard to buy just by the spec. So while you are the computer - send some emails. I would recommend Lesley from WF. She responds really quickly. Tell her what you are looking for. Ultimately your eye is the judge and they have a 10 day inspection period. I highly recommend the ACA so see what they can do for you. Both her and Brian are fabulous. But for a princess cut is WAY more important. I''m color sensitive. . . so I went with an F. But further research on my part shows I probably could have went with a lower color and maybe a bigger stone. But I love mine so much it doesn''t matter. The cut is amazing and you will be happy working with WF. Shoot them an email if that''s your comfort zone. It''s mine and I did have to pick up the phone eventually, but lots can be done through email.

 

[pbizzle]

Thanks everyone for your help...they should sticky this thread because I know there are a lot of guys in my position thinking the same thing.

I will be pulling the trigger soon and post pics upon arrival!

 

[Mediterranean]

Date: 12/11/2008 2:17:00 PM
Author: hoofbeats95
I''m color sensitive. . . so I went with an F. But further research on my part shows I probably could have went with a lower color and maybe a bigger stone. But I love mine so much it doesn''t matter. The cut is amazing and you will be happy working with WF. Shoot them an email if that''s your comfort zone. It''s mine and I did have to pick up the phone eventually, but lots can be done through email.

You know what? I went down to a G in color, and I''m A-OK with that, even though it''s 3.12ct, and I was warned the larger the stone, the more color show. The cut maximizes the light return so much so that it seems to face up, mounted, as much whiter. Other factors affecting this could be that I live in an area of the world with a LOT of strong sunlight (Miami, FL, USA) PLUS, my skin-tone is darker than average. I''m half Greek and half Puerto Rican, heritage wise, and i think my darker skin tone, the bright sun, and the light return factors all collide to make the G look a little whiter.


..Or so I tell myself, LOL!!!!

 

[Regular Guy]

PBizzle,

Yes, a lot of good info here, thanks to Paul. Probably not SO good it should be a sticky...but good enough for FAQ, or to put in the Helpful Threads Archive" up top.

But, important, where you say...

Date: 12/11/2008 12:29:25 PM
Author: pbizzle


It also sounds like, and correct me if I''m wrong, that an I color SI1/SI2 with a favorable ASET and Ideal Scope can, in a lot of cases, be more valuable and look better than a G, H color Vs1/Vs2 with a less-favorable ASET & Ideal Scope.

And as a techie, I think I''ve been relying too much on what you all call online-stock. I''m going to have to pick up a phone, aren''t I!!!

No...stay the techie. Forget the phone. Just go the the right vendor! If you''re convinced enough that an IS and/or ASET will help you, go to vendors presented here who show them. These include WF, GOG, and a range of vendors who carry Paul''s own stock, found here!