The Cleveland Kidnappings

[Circe]

Three women recently escaped/were rescued from over a decade of torture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/us/three-women-gone-for-years-found-in-ohio.html?_r=0

I'm sure you've all been seeing this in the news. Coming on the heels of Elizabeth Smart's recent headlines ... and the only slightly more distant memories of Jaycee Dugard, the the Fritzl case ... it just feels like an endless litany of nightmares. Combined with the conviction of "Cannibal Cop" Gilberto Valle, and this week's arrest of Michael Arnett and Geoffrey Portway (basically the same scenario as the cannibal cop, except with the charming additions of pedophilia and having built a child-sized torture chamber for the prospective kidnap victim), I just keep wondering WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR SOCIETY.

History/crime buffs - have stories like this been around prior to this century? Were they just less "sensational" before the internet? I feel like serial killers, we remember: Lizzie Borden is still famous in a way the potential kidnap/captors of her day don't appear to be. Socially sanctioned in some horrifying way, as during the days of slavery? "Sanctioned" may be the wrong term ... but I don't believe slave owners who killed or tortured the people they "owned" could be considered legally liable, no matter how horrifying their actions. And these sick, bizarre control scenarios, cannibalistic or otherwise, seem somehow reminiscent of that.

Or is this actually somehow getting more common? If so ... what do we DO about it?

 

[Dee*Jay]

Absolutely appalling and disgusting on every level.

To your question about whether this is becoming more common: I think (a) it is, and (b) that due to the ability to widely spread news like this (i.e., internet), things are known to a greater audience.

BTW, did you listen to Mr. Ramsey's 911 call? Love that guy!

 

[sha4000]

Just CRAZY! The most appalling thing is how BOLD the people are that commit these crimes. Who the heck helped them deliver the babies!

 

[Circe]

Just CRAZY! The most appalling thing is how BOLD the people are that commit these crimes. Who the heck helped them deliver the babies!

From the sound of it, they either didn't care if they lived, or hoped they would die ... so I'm guessing no one. The most recent report I read said that some of the girls were beaten while pregnant to force them to miscarry, and that at least five stillborn or murdered infants were buried on the grounds.

I keep imagining what those girls went through. I saw a recommendation for Emma Donoghue's Room in the comment thread on one news story (novel describing the transition back into society by a kidnap victim in a situation similar to this ... with her five-year-old, born and raised in the same room they were held), and I shuddered. Donoghue's a stronger woman that I am to be able to keep imagining that for however many hundred pages. For that matter, so are her readers.

 

[sha4000]

I've been meaning to follow this more closely but time just does not permit. It just tears my heart out to even imagine what life had to be like for these girls. I believe justice will be served from a legal stand point but somewhere inside me thinks that once in prison these inhuman things need to be violated for the duration of their sentences. Sorry for that mini rant.

 

[Circe]

I've been meaning to follow this more closely but time just does not permit. It just tears my heart out to even imagine what life had to be like for these girls. I believe justice will be served from a legal stand point but somewhere inside me thinks that once in prison these inhuman things need to be violated for the duration of their sentences. Sorry for that mini rant.

I just want them dead - not for the sake of "vengeance," just as a guarantee they, specifically, can't hurt anybody else ever again. (I also prefer official punishments - "prison justice" is a big flaw in the system, I think, because it makes the other predators even more twisted, and likelier to repeat the behavior once they're out.) Happily, Ohio appears to be a death penalty state.

 

[chrono]

Horrified does not even begin to describe what I think of the experience the poor women have undergone and the heinousness of the crimes committed. I have no idea if the age of better news, wide reaching internet or some other reason these appear to be more common lately.

 

[Boatluvr]

I think it is a combination of the internet and everything it offers at our fingers AND people just being plain evil. I believe wicked people have been around for a long time - we just never had the technology to track them down. There is a fascinating book about Chicago's World Fair - it's called The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic and Madness at the Fair that Changed America by Erik Larson. It's a chilling account of a mass murderer (I believe that is the correct term). It's a fascinating book.

 

[pandabee]

I am just so happy that by some grace of higher power these girls were found alive. I just love Charles Ramsey's comment when Anderson Cooper asked him if he wanted a reward for finding these girls. He stated that no, he already gets a paycheck and the reward should go to these girls. So good to hear that there are still people like this in the world in the face of horrible events.

 

[kenny]

... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR SOCIETY.
...
what do we DO about it?

Individuals did this, not society.
Hideous evils have occurred throughout history in many kinds of societies.
I think the only thing we can do about it is what we are already doing ... have punishments that hopefully deters others.
Nobody knows how many crimes did NOT happen because of the deterrence of the prisons and death chamber.
For every crime that happens many were likely deterred.

I cannot imagine the psychological harm to these women and any children these men conceived.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, this is why I believe in the death penalty. Too horrific to even read the details.

 

[chrono]

I don't like that my tax dollars are keeping the perpetrators housed and fed for life in prison. They do not deserve even that.

 

[kenny]

It didn't take long for someone to make a song from the interview of the hero.
NSFW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4

 

[Dreamer_D]

This whole story is horrifying, amazing, unbelievable, shocking. I feel it all.

It didn't take long for someone to make a song from the interview of the hero.
NSFW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4

I saw this news interview and loved this guy. He is so honest. And this song is great. The one ray of light in this horrible situation, this man actually helped. Someone else might have walked on by.

 

[ScorpioLove]

once in prison these inhuman things need to be violated for the duration of their sentences. Sorry for that mini rant.

Call me mean, cold, heartless or any combination of other names, but quite honestly, that would just be TOO easy. (hmph) They don't even deserve the "courtesy" of going to prison IMHO!!

 

[ScorpioLove]

UNDESERVING!

I don't like that my tax dollars are keeping the perpetrators housed and fed for life in prison. They do not deserve even that.

+1!!

 

[SB621]

This just reaffirms my belief in the death penalty. Those poor women who suffered through who knows what for almost a decade. Were beaten to cause miscarriages and actually gave birth 5 times to babies that no one know what happens too. They also believe other women were held there. I have no words for what those men deserve.

As for society going to hell in a handbasket I do believe the internet and media allows news stories to spread much faster but I also think the internet allows people more access to be more dangerous. You can look up ways to kill people and cover it up online. There are sites decidated to it. I don't mean to blame the internet, society, media on all the horrible things going on today. As as adult I have responsibility for those around me to help in any way possible. I report issues that I see as problems to the correct authorites and hope they get address accordingly. I do blame people who see or hear things and then choose to remain quiet because they dont' want to get involved.

 

[ChristineRose]

Three women recently escaped/were rescued from over a decade of torture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/us/three-women-gone-for-years-found-in-ohio.html?_r=0

I'm sure you've all been seeing this in the news. Coming on the heels of Elizabeth Smart's recent headlines ... and the only slightly more distant memories of Jaycee Dugard, the the Fritzl case ... it just feels like an endless litany of nightmares. Combined with the conviction of "Cannibal Cop" Gilberto Valle, and this week's arrest of Michael Arnett and Geoffrey Portway (basically the same scenario as the cannibal cop, except with the charming additions of pedophilia and having built a child-sized torture chamber for the prospective kidnap victim), I just keep wondering WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR SOCIETY.

History/crime buffs - have stories like this been around prior to this century? Were they just less "sensational" before the internet? I feel like serial killers, we remember: Lizzie Borden is still famous in a way the potential kidnap/captors of her day don't appear to be. Socially sanctioned in some horrifying way, as during the days of slavery? "Sanctioned" may be the wrong term ... but I don't believe slave owners who killed or tortured the people they "owned" could be considered legally liable, no matter how horrifying their actions. And these sick, bizarre control scenarios, cannibalistic or otherwise, seem somehow reminiscent of that.

Or is this actually somehow getting more common? If so ... what do we DO about it?

It's hard to compare because historical data is pretty sparse, but generally, no, these things are not more common than they used to be. Many, many female slaves were treated this way and are lost to history. If you go back far enough it was assumed that soldiers would assault, murder and enslave civilians. Cannibalism for fun does seem to be trending up, probably because of Mr. Lector, but we know it happened.

Lizzie Borden was a young woman who (probably) killed her father and stepmother and got away with it. She was unusual to say the least, and DNA evidence would have settled that case. That's why you still know her name.

Torture, assault, murder, cannibalism, dismemberment are all over history with the most relevant difference being that people were far more likely to get away with it then than now. Keep in mind also that people locked in a basement have a tendency to either escape or die and it's just easier for people to build functional prisons than it used to be.

 

[madelise]

Re: UNDESERVING!

I don't like that my tax dollars are keeping the perpetrators housed and fed for life in prison. They do not deserve even that.

+1!!

How's Ohio's prosecution rate?
Let's ship them off to TX and have em killed ASAP.

 

[ForteKitty]

I vote for castration without anesthesia and a public flaying to the death.

 

[missy]

I vote for castration without anesthesia and a public flaying to the death.

I'll second this vote.
Nothing would be too terrible a punishment for those responsible for this heinous crime.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don't like that my tax dollars are keeping the perpetrators housed and fed for life in prison. They do not deserve even that.

Yup,execute them tomorrow w/o a trial.

 

[kenny]

I want to puke.

So extra yucky crimes mean we become a lynch mob and abandon our justice system?
Shame on y'all.

Please trust our system to administer justice.

 

[Circe]

A little venting never hurt anyone - I do think particularly repulsive crimes arouse strong emotions. I'm all for due process.

I just hope Cleveland's DA pursues the harshest penalties, and at speed.

 

[kenny]

A little venting never hurt anyone - I do think particularly repulsive crimes arouse strong emotions. I'm all for due process.

I just hope Cleveland's DA pursues the harshest penalties, and at speed.

Me too.
I'll cheer when, if found guilty, his ass fries.

And if he gets life I won't cry any tears when he become Bubba's captive bitch.
Karma.

 

[ForteKitty]

Me too.
I'll cheer when, if found guilty, his a$$ fries.

And if he gets life I won't cry any tears when he become Bubba's captive bitch.
Karma.

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. The women he tortured should get to decide his fate, however cruel and unusual it may be.

 

[luv2sparkle]

This whole story is horrifying, amazing, unbelievable, shocking. I feel it all.

It didn't take long for someone to make a song from the interview of the hero.
NSFW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4

I saw this news interview and loved this guy. He is so honest. And this song is great. The one ray of light in this horrible situation, this man actually helped. Someone else might have walked on by.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Schmoyoho!!!! They will donate a lot of the proceeds to the victims. My favorite is their Backin up song. It was my ring tone for some time.

This is a horrible crime. I am always surprised by the depravity of man, and how it is not seen by those around them.

 

[luv2sparkle]

What were Elizabeth Smarts recent headlines? Did I miss this?

 

[distracts]

I don't follow things that don't make political blogs, so I had never heard of Cannibal Cop & his ilk!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anything like this is becoming more common - I think we just hear about it more (and possibly these people are captured/prosecuted more). I think that, if anything, it could actually be becoming less common. We don't currently have a vast underclass that no one will notice if they go missing - while we do have an underclass, we do still tend to pay more than zero attention to their murders and kidnappings. Though really I don't think human nature has changed much in the past several thousand years though.

I keep imagining what those girls went through. I saw a recommendation for Emma Donoghue's Room in the comment thread on one news story (novel describing the transition back into society by a kidnap victim in a situation similar to this ... with her five-year-old, born and raised in the same room they were held), and I shuddered. Donoghue's a stronger woman that I am to be able to keep imagining that for however many hundred pages. For that matter, so are her readers.

Room is an evocative novel. Read it at your own risk.

I am just so happy that by some grace of higher power these girls were found alive. I just love Charles Ramsey's comment when Anderson Cooper asked him if he wanted a reward for finding these girls. He stated that no, he already gets a paycheck and the reward should go to these girls. So good to hear that there are still people like this in the world in the face of horrible events.

Charles Ramsey seems like a pretty cool dude. ngl, those girls were so lucky it was HIM that was out there paying attention! I'm sure many people would have just walked away.

And while we're on the subject of the death penalty... while my visceral reaction is GO FOR IT, the reality is that far too many innocents have been found guilty by the courts and put to death, only to be exonerated after their deaths by new evidence/DNA testing/whatever. Heck, some people are exonerated by science while they are still alive, but have run out of appeals, and are put to death rather than pardoned so some governor doesn't look weak on crime. I'd rather my tax dollars go to house evil killers in prison for eternity than go to putting just one innocent man to death. But I believe killing puts a blot on the soul that no amount of "we thought it was right at the time" can erase, and others feel differently.

 

[kenny]

Me too.
I'll cheer when, if found guilty, his a$$ fries.

And if he gets life I won't cry any tears when he become Bubba's captive bitch.
Karma.

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. The women he tortured should get to decide his fate, however cruel and unusual it may be.

Nope.
That's not how our justice system works, no matter how yucky and upsetting the crime is.