Appraised diamond not matching GIA certificate

[setell]

I finally got my diamond appraised locally as I wanted to build a relationship (they offered free prong checking and free cleanings/polishing every 6 months). I am a tad bit upset that my diamond was rated as SI1 and H-I in colour. She did put in the appraisal the laser inscribed GIA number which is what the certificate says. The problem is, my diamond is a G VS2 from the GIA certificate and I paid for a VS2 clarity diamond too. Can an appraiser and GIA be that off in their appraisal/grading? I am looking for a second opinion and waiting to hear back from my insurer what they will accept. If anything happens to my diamond I don’t want a SI1 H-I in colour!

 

[stone-cold11]

Does not sound like an independent appraiser. Maybe conflict of interest is working on the appraiser's mind to put down stone sold by other vendor.

Grading is an opinion of the grader and color and clarity are not on a step scale but sliding, so that could be off even within the same lab.

 

[denverappraiser]

Have you talked to the appraiser about it and showed her the report from GIA? Does she agree that it’s the same stone as what's described by the lab and that it's a genuine GIA document?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[setell]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:15:07 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
Does not sound like an independent appraiser. Maybe conflict of interest is working on the appraiser''s mind to put down stone sold by other vendor.

Grading is an opinion of the grader and color and clarity are not on a step scale but sliding, so that could be off even within the same lab.

Maybe. She asked me when I brought my ring in for teh appraisal if I had brought the papers that came with the diamond. I refused and lied that I couldn''t find it. I wanted a independant view/grading of the diamond. I consider it cheating if she has all the specs infront of her. I understand there may be slight differences with each lab when grading the diamond but I consider the difference too big to "ignore".

 

[setell]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:35:09 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Have you talked to the appraiser about it and showed her the report from GIA? Does she agree that it’s the same stone as what''s described by the lab and that it''s a genuine GIA document?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I didn''t show her the GIA report as I picked it up Friday afternoon. Went home and looked at everything and wasn''t happy with the results. I can''t call her to inquire about it as she''s only open Wednesday to Friday. I don''t know what a geniune GIA document looks like. I just got the laminate certificate GoG sent me that matched what he had on the website.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:39:44 AM
Author: setell

Date: 10/26/2009 11:35:09 AM

Author: denverappraiser

Have you talked to the appraiser about it and showed her the report from GIA? Does she agree that it’s the same stone as what's described by the lab and that it's a genuine GIA document?


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

I didn't show her the GIA report as I picked it up Friday afternoon. Went home and looked at everything and wasn't happy with the results. I can't call her to inquire about it as she's only open Wednesday to Friday. I don't know what a geniune GIA document looks like. I just got the laminate certificate GoG sent me that matched what he had on the website.

I guess it depends on your objectives. From your initial post I thought your objective was documentation for insurance. Apparently it was to ‘test’ the appraiser's grading skills. You got your answer.

It may be worth your trouble to hire an appraiser to document what you have for insurance purposes. It’s even possible that the same appraiser will be available although the results of your test may lead you to go somewhere else. Ask her. She surely knows what a genuine GIA report looks like but it would be necessary to show it to her (or whoever you choose to do your appraisal).

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:09:33 AM
Author:setell
I finally got my diamond appraised locally as I wanted to build a relationship (they offered free prong checking and free cleanings/polishing every 6 months). I am a tad bit upset that my diamond was rated as SI1 and H-I in colour. She did put in the appraisal the laser inscribed GIA number which is what the certificate says. The problem is, my diamond is a G VS2 from the GIA certificate and I paid for a VS2 clarity diamond too. Can an appraiser and GIA be that off in their appraisal/grading? I am looking for a second opinion and waiting to hear back from my insurer what they will accept. If anything happens to my diamond I don’t want a SI1 H-I in colour!

edit - I see Neil has you covered!

 

[setell]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:41:14 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/26/2009 11:39:44 AM
Author: setell

Date: 10/26/2009 11:35:09 AM

Author: denverappraiser

Have you talked to the appraiser about it and showed her the report from GIA? Does she agree that it’s the same stone as what''s described by the lab and that it''s a genuine GIA document?


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

I didn''t show her the GIA report as I picked it up Friday afternoon. Went home and looked at everything and wasn''t happy with the results. I can''t call her to inquire about it as she''s only open Wednesday to Friday. I don''t know what a geniune GIA document looks like. I just got the laminate certificate GoG sent me that matched what he had on the website.

I guess it depends on your objectives. From your initial post I thought your objective was documentation for insurance. Apparently it was to ‘test’ the appraiser''s grading skills. You got your answer.

It may be worth your trouble to hire an appraiser to document what you have for insurance purposes. It’s even possible that the same appraiser will be available. Ask her. She surely knows what a genuine GIA report looks like but it would be necessary to show it to her (or whoever you choose to do your appraisal).

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Well it wasn''t to "test" her grading skills. I wanted a independant view/opinion of the diamond. The appraisal was for insurance purposes. I just thought if you''re an appraiser confirming what the GIA certificate says isn''t an independant view if you have the certificate right infront of you. To me that is more cheating as you already know the colour/clarity. I would have been happy if she was more closer. Plus it didn''t make me feel good when she saw my diamond and asked if it was an assher....I have a cushion

Oh well, so much for small city appraisers. I am going to try Toronto and go for the more reputable appraisers.

 

[Karl_K]

The report has an effect on the value of the diamond and what it will be replaced with.
The report number needs to be on the insurance appraisal.
Take it with you but ask them to grade the diamond first before handing it over.
If the results differ then discuss it with your appraiser.
A set diamond has a larger margin of error than an unset one.

 

[denverappraiser]

I don’t mean to come across as crabby. She should have had this conversation with you when she took in the job as well as when she delivered it. As Karl points out, the presence of the GIA pedigree has an effect both on the value and on the procedures used in the case of a replacement and it’s important that it is part of the description. I actually include a full copy of the lab report in the body of my appraisals. For your purposes, the question of whether the appraiser agrees with the grading in the report is actually secondary to the question of whether it’s the correct stone/report matching and that it’s undamaged since the lab saw it.

With my clients the usual procedure it to have a conversation with them first about their objectives and then to grade the stone prior to looking at the lab documents. I then look at the docs and if there is any discrepancy between my grading and theirs, I point them out and we discuss both what those differences are and why. I may or may not alter my grading opinions but, for insurance replacement purposes, a GIA graded stone needs to be replaced by a similarly graded GIA stone. This is true even if I think it’s wrong (unless I think it’s the wrong stone or post-lab damage). For some reason the insurance companies put much more stake in what GIA thinks in terms of grading than with I think.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[setell]

Thanks Neil and Karl for the info. I''ll call her on Wednesday about my concerns. If need be I''ll make the drive to Toronto and get Harold Weinstein to do the appraisal.

I guess I should have been more clear or she should have been more clear about wanting the certificate. I just didn''t feel comfortable giving it to her before she even looked at the diamond.

 

[oldminer]

I enjoy the chance to guesstimate the results of GIA or AGSL reports before looking at them with some folks who want to see what my unbiased opinion of the grade is. On unset diamonds, I generally find my color and clarity grading to be spot on or within 1 grade of a normal grading report from one of these two major labs. On set diamonds, the grade might be identical to GIA or AGSL, but only if I am very lucky. Being within a two grade tolerance is just as likely on color although clarity grading on most diamonds, even mounted remains within one grade nearly all the time. Sometimes an abnormal report comes across my desk and then all bets are off. Dealers love to save "happy mistake" reports and sell them with surprisingly discounted stones. There is almost always a good reason for surprisingly deep discounts.

However, I much prefer to look at documents that come with diamonds so as not to waste the extra time to make such a careful analysis of the limited view on a set stone. If the grade looks correct, then what's the point of making a best guess based on imperfect and incomplete facts? Real diamond grading only happens on unset stones. The rest is guesswork, combined with lots of practical experience. We can identify most mounted diamonds to match or not to match existing reports based on clarity placement and exact measurements most of the time. Color is less crucial to verification of identity.

Admittedly, looking at a report first creates the appearance of bias. You have to have faith and trust in your chosen appraiser. That's why you have to be selective not only in your diamond, but in your appraiser, too.

 

[John P]

Stone Cold noted something I'd like to follow-up -

Date: 10/26/2009 11:09:33 AM
Author:setell
I finally got my diamond appraised locally as I wanted to build a relationship (they offered free prong checking and free cleanings/polishing every 6 months).

Does the place where you took it do appraisals-only (not involved at all in the selling of gems/jewelry) or is this a store which sells jewelry and also does appraisals?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/26/2009 11:39:44 AM
Author: setell

Date: 10/26/2009 11:35:09 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Have you talked to the appraiser about it and showed her the report from GIA? Does she agree that it’s the same stone as what''s described by the lab and that it''s a genuine GIA document?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I didn''t show her the GIA report as I picked it up Friday afternoon. Went home and looked at everything and wasn''t happy with the results. I can''t call her to inquire about it as she''s only open Wednesday to Friday. I don''t know what a geniune GIA document looks like. I just got the laminate certificate GoG sent me that matched what he had on the website.

I know you probably did not intend to do this, but you set your appraiser up to fail. She failed the test when she agreed to grade a mounted diamond and hoped to get it as accurate as GIA did grading an unmounted diamond while knowing you had a GIA report against which she would then be "graded". Clearly a no win situation, as if she grades too loosely she looks bad, if she grades spot on you might think her lucky instead of really good, and if she is a little too tight you now wonder if you got cheated by your vendor. Sorry, but you lost me at, "I refused and lied that I couldn''t find it."

Reality check here. You have a document that was provided by "THE authority" in the trade, the 800 pound gorilla who was one clarity grade higher and one color grade higher than your appraiser who was grading a mounted stone which automatically makes it hard to accurately grade the color and can sometimes make it impossible to accurately grade the clarity. Even GIA teaches that a one grade higher or lower range is an acceptable difference in opinion and they are grading unmounted diamonds.

You hired a professional and then lied to her and now you are not happy with the results? She is actually within an acceptable range of error and you want us to tell you she is incompetent. Sorry but you don''t get my vote.

I know this is a consumer forum and my point of view is likely to be unpopular, but I bet if you went to Niel and told him you could not find your paper work you might be asked to get it or he might call GIA and confirm the report prior to putting his name on the report. (I will give you that much, she had what she needed to find out.)

The real value to having the report is that she could then have verified that the gem she was inspecting was the gem that you thought you were purchasing.

My suggestion is that when you hire a professional you discuss what you want with them and provide them with the information to do their jobs. Having her grade the diamond in her opinion first then showing them the cert is one thing and I have done it with my clients many times when they bring a diamond in for an appraisal.

Lieing to that professional and then holding her up as incompetent is completely another. Had you had an open discussion with her, asked her opinion of the diamond then shown her the paper and also had you understood the acceptable level of variance for a loose gem and the higher level of variance, especially for color in a mounted stone you would have known that she was well within that range and you could have discussed these things intelligently with her rather than now feeling somehow abused.

You do need a new appraisal though, as the insurance company would be happy to let you replace it with the lower grade rather than the higher one you are actually entitled to.

Good luck to you going all the way to Toronto and paying for a new appraisal. Just curious, why would you not just go to your original appraiser, show her the cert and ask if she agrees with it enough to issue you a new report? If so you have what you originally wanted without the extra expense.

Wink

 

[setell]

John: This isn''t an independent store but part of a jewellery store. I guess I should have went to somebody 100% independent. I live in a small city so there isn’t much appraisers to choose from. I think she is the only one that is “independent” other then the chain jewellery stores.

Wink: I did not intend to set her up for failure but had she explain to me say what Neil, Karl would do by me bringing it in AFTER she looked at the diamond first then I would have no problem with it. To me it really still defeats me getting that appraisal if she''s just going to copy that GIA report and give me an estimated replacement value. Why would I need or want her opinion then? Why would I pay to get an opinion if she is biased to start with?! As to me lying to her, well she kept pressuring me so I lied under the pressure since I wasn’t comfortable giving it to her before she even looked at the diamond! You could say it was miscommunication but then I guess she could have explained WHY she wanted it first so I’m more inclined to provide it. She did not explain that we can go over the differences either.

I wasn’t coming here for sympathy to make me feel I am right and she is a bad appraiser. I am just a bit unhappy with the result of my appraisal (I think I am entitled to how I feel). I got my answer to my question that it’s normal to be a grade lower in clarity/colour. I could go into detail how I haven’t been a happy customer pretty much from the beginning but then I might be branded to be bad mouthing an appraiser.

I got a hold of my insurer today and they will take all receipts and reports vs. just the appraisal so I''m good if anything happens to my ring. They recommend me getting another appraisal but not necessary.

 

[Kaleigh]

An Independent appraiser is not part of a store, doesn''t sell jewelry, thus is unbiased in grading stones...

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

You state she wrote in the appraisal that there was a laser inscription then she had to know that you owned a GIA report and were not being forthright with her.

 

[John P]

Date: 10/26/2009 9:42:32 PM
Author: setell

John: This isn't an independent store but part of a jewellery store. I guess I should have went to somebody 100% independent. I live in a small city so there isn’t much appraisers to choose from. I think she is the only one that is “independent” other then the chain jewellery stores.

I understand that you were limited by the choices available to you. The problem (as you've deduced) is that any location selling jewelry isn't the optimum choice from which to get an "independent" appraisal. There are a number of possible side-motives. I'll give two "evils" first... 1. The stereotypical reason to undergrade is to create fear in your purchase and try to convince you to buy from their own store... 2. As 30years noted, a pro seeing the laser inscription could look up the stats online and undergrade it - and perhaps later make an offer to buy it based on the low grades.

I tend to believe most people are good - and without "evil" intent Wink outlined another practical reason she may have been strict. But whatever the case, the situation was set up for failure - by the non-independence as much as anything IMHO.

I wasn’t coming here for sympathy to make me feel I am right and she is a bad appraiser. I am just a bit unhappy with the result of my appraisal (I think I am entitled to how I feel).

It's understandable. There are intracacies and unknowns to the process that aren't really communicated well in all places. Even in a best-case scenario (using the most independent, no-conflict, scrubbed & sterilized no-swine-flu appraiser) accepted tolerance is a grade of different in color & clarity...with a bit more leeway when mounted.

...I haven’t been a happy customer pretty much from the beginning but then I might be branded to be bad mouthing an appraiser.

No problem... They all need a bit of flak now & then to keep 'em alert.

Having made my little jab, I'd mention that the appraisers who post here are the varsity team. Most of them will take long-distance jobs if your local situation isn't panning out. Meanwhile I hope you're enjoying the piece and that all works out to your satisfaction.