David Koch is Dead

[Tekate]

Was it cos Mr Koch watched last week's Patriot Act? Sorry , I had to. Karma please don't curse me.

Good karma is good for the health and laughing is good for the health, you're safe!

 

[Matata]

but I refuse to celebrate it out of simple respect for human life. If anything, his life had value because it served as a lesson to others of how NOT to treat people.

This has always been an interesting concept for me. I don't believe in universal respect for human life. Some humans are good and some are bad and the bad do not imo deserve the same respect as the good. Those who have money, power, and influence on a global scale and use it to harm on a large scale are not worthy of respect. I took a look at lists of the most hated men/companies in the USA and of the most deadly dictators in the world, past and present. We've had plenty of examples on how not to treat people and yet we perpetuate those awful behaviors. Their deeds are so heinous that I find it disrespectful to humanity in general to give them an ounce of respect. Respect is earned, not automatically conferred, and once earned does not mean it can't be forfeited.

 

[redwood66]

That's YOU, me I can rejoice at his death, not that I did much other than laugh. But I feel maybe one block of the wall of money that is ruining our environment is gone, I don't just believe in the individual's right, I believe in groups rights, as in the case, the American people and all people of our planet earth.

From th 2018 Libertarian Platform:

1.0 PERSONAL LIBERTY
Individuals are inherently free to make choices for themselves and must accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. Our support of an individual’s right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices. No individual, group, or government may rightly initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Libertarians reject the notion that groups have inherent rights. We support the rights of the smallest minority, the individual.

I believe groups have rights as in the groups that wish for fresh air and clean water, safety etc.

In my opinion rejoicing at a person who has done so much to hurt our planet is normal. Tribalism? Meh, everyone has a tribe, and if the tribe I belong to is relieved Koch is dead, so be it. Hate? I'd say a much better word is RELIEF. Dedication? I am dedicated to a cleaner earth

And I would never remove your right to say any of it.

The non aggression principle lives in me and mine. Group rights don't trump individual ones, especially not at the expense of the individual.

 

[Tekate]

From NYmag:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/david-kochs-monstrous-legacy.html

last paragraph sums it up:

David Koch died before he could reap the full bounty of his works. We will not be so lucky. His legacy is poisoned water and dirty air, decimated unions, and Donald Trump. No amount of arts patronage can purify that stain. It is likely not coincidental that the small government the Kochs desire would leave artists and scientists at the mercy of billionaires’ largesse. It’s as if he and his brother wanted to pitch us all on their vision for the world: If we let their companies gobble as much as they could, they would throw us a scrap or two. Never enough to live on; just enough to hold us until the next handout. They would allow us a glimpse of beauty, a mirage of progress, so that we would readily accept a cage.

Protected from consequences by death as his money protected him in life, David Koch is dead.

 

[Tekate]

And I would never remove your right to say any of it.

The non aggression principle lives in me and mine. Group rights don't trump individual ones.

No me yours, that is what is known as discourse and we do it well.

Depends on the group.. I believe in our country first then states.

 

[telephone89]

 

[lovedogs]

This has always been an interesting concept for me. I don't believe in universal respect for human life. Some humans are good and some are bad and the bad do not imo deserve the same respect as the good. Those who have money, power, and influence on a global scale and use it to harm on a large scale are not worthy of respect. I took a look at lists of the most hated men/companies in the USA and of the most deadly dictators in the world, past and present. We've had plenty of examples on how not to treat people and yet we perpetuate those awful behaviors. Their deeds are so heinous that I find it disrespectful to humanity in general to give them an ounce of respect. Respect is earned, not automatically conferred, and once earned does not mean it can't be forfeited.

So much this!

 

[Bonfire]

Well while you’re all condemning him to eternal damnation, it may not matter to those who call him evil, but other cancer patients like myself have/will benefit from his $150 million donation to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. $100 million to New York Presbyterian Hospital. Donations to Lincoln Center for Performing Arts. I read he dished out $1.2 billion for good causes nationwide. I guess good causes is subjective. Now, back to racking him over the coals of hell.

 

[redwood66]

Well while you’re all condemning him to eternal damnation, it may not matter to those who call him evil, but other cancer patients like myself have/will benefit from his $150 million donation to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. $100 million to New York Presbyterian Hospital. Donations to Lincoln Center for Performing Arts. I read he dished out $1.2 billion for good causes nationwide. I guess good causes is subjective. Now, back to racking him over the coals of hell.

And RBG.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/7536...nt-another-round-of-cancer-treatment-this-sum


https://www.foxbusiness.com/busines...iving-back-to-charity-heres-where-it-all-went

 

[doberman]

This has always been an interesting concept for me. I don't believe in universal respect for human life. Some humans are good and some are bad and the bad do not imo deserve the same respect as the good. Those who have money, power, and influence on a global scale and use it to harm on a large scale are not worthy of respect. I took a look at lists of the most hated men/companies in the USA and of the most deadly dictators in the world, past and present. We've had plenty of examples on how not to treat people and yet we perpetuate those awful behaviors. Their deeds are so heinous that I find it disrespectful to humanity in general to give them an ounce of respect. Respect is earned, not automatically conferred, and once earned does not mean it can't be forfeited.

Amen brother. I don't respect all human life any more than I believe every human who tells me something. Not all humans have shown themselves to be worthy of respect. Koch was a vile person and I totally understand if some are celebrating his demise.

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead - a celebration of death

 

[Matata]

Well while you’re all condemning him to eternal damnation, it may not matter to those who call him evil, but other cancer patients like myself have/will benefit from his $150 million donation to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. $100 million to New York Presbyterian Hospital. Donations to Lincoln Center for Performing Arts. I read he dished out $1.2 billion for good causes nationwide. I guess good causes is subjective.

 

[Tekate]

So in my book I weigh this against the people who developed lung cancer because of him. I understand your feelings/thoughts and did not think it unfair. I do not damn him to hell because I don't believe in god, heaven or hell, his time is done.

I weigh his gifts etc and what he's done.

https://polluterwatch.org/koch-industries

snippet:

The Political Economy Research Institute ranks Koch Industries as the fourteenth worst air polluter in the U.S. in their Toxic Release Inventory, above oil giants like BP, Shell and Chevron and large coal utilities like American Electric Power and Duke Energy. CARMA reports that Koch releases about 200,000 tons of atmospheric carbon dioxide annually.

Koch Industries environmental crimes, violations, and contamination include:

• Two chlorine dioxide chemical leaks from a Koch-owned cellulose facility in Taylor County Florida in May, 2014.

• Subsidiaries of Koch Carbon have accumulated massive piles of petroleum coke in U.S. cities like Detroitand Chicago, where the toxic dust has blown into peoples' homes from a 5-story-tall pile of petcoke. Petcoke is a byproduct of refining tar sands that is usually burned like coal. Petcoke, which is more carbon-intensive than coal, is typically exported and burned in other countries with little to no air or climate regulations. While Detroit's mayor ordered Koch to move its petcoke pile, Chicago regulators and politicians have not acted with the same urgency despite sustained local protests from community members, nurses, and threats of lawsuits from environmental groups. In response, Koch claims it will add protections to its unlined pile, which could take two years.

• Facing "enormous" cleanup costs for soil and groundwater contamination and high crude oil prices, Flint Hills announced in 2014 that it would permanently close its North Pole refinery outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. Koch blames contamination on the refinery's previous owner, Williams Companies.

• Ongoing releases of benzene and other chemicals from Koch's oil refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas, where refinery communities experience high rates of illnesses.

• Hundreds of thousands of pounds of toxic chemical contamination from Koch-owned Georgia-Pacific facility in Crossett, Arkansas, as reported in 2011.

• In 2009, the US Justice Department and EPA announced in 2009 that Koch Industries' Invista subsidiary would pay a $1.7 million penalty and spend $500 million to fix environmental violations at facilities in seven states, in an agreement with the US EPA and Department of Justice.

• In May 2001, Koch Industries paid $25 million to settle with the US Government over a long-standing suit brought by Bill Koch - one of the brothers bought out in 1983 - for the company's long-standing practice of illegally removing oil from federal and Indian lands.

• In late 2000, the company was charged with covering up the illegal releases of 91 tons of the known carcinogen benzene from its refinery in Corpus Christi. Initially facing a 97-count indictment and potential fines of $350 million, Koch cut a deal with then-Attorney General John Ashcroft to drop all major charges in exchange for a guilty plea for falsifying documents, and a $20 million settlement.

• In 2000, the EPA fined Koch Industries $30 million for its role in 300 oil spills that resulted in more than three million gallons of crude oil leaking into ponds, lakes, streams and coastal waters.

• In 1999 a Koch subsidiary pleaded guilty to charges that it had negligently allowed aviation fuel to leak into waters near the Mississippi River from its refinery in Rosemount, Minnesota, and that it had illegally dumped a million gallons of high-ammonia wastewater onto the ground and into the Mississippi.

• Koch's negligence toward environmental safety has led to tragic losses of life. In 1996, a rusty Kochpipeline leaked flammable butane near a Texas residential neighborhood. Warned by the smell of gas, two teenagers drove their truck toward the nearest payphone to call for help, but they never made it. Sparks from their truck ignited the gas cloud and the two burned alive. The National Transportation Safety Boarddetermined that "the probable cause of this accident was the failure of Koch to adequately protect its pipeline from corrosion" and the ineffectiveness of Koch's program to educate local residents about how to respond during a pipeline leak.

The inability of Koch companies to avoid pollution incidents stands in contrast with Charles Koch's "Guiding Principles" of his trademarked corporate management theory, "Market-Based Management," which states, "Strive for 10,000% compliance with all laws and regulations, which requires 100% of employees fully complying 100% of the time." This also excludes from consideration the ways in which Koch is permitted to legally pollute.

FORMALDEHYDE, CANCER, AND DAVID KOCH
While David Koch, a victim of prostate cancer, has donated millions to cancer research institutions and is a member of the National Cancer Advisory Board, Koch Industries subsidiary Georgia-Pacific is actively working to downplay the dangers of formaldehyde, a known carcinogen.

Well while you’re all condemning him to eternal damnation, it may not matter to those who call him evil, but other cancer patients like myself have/will benefit from his $150 million donation to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. $100 million to New York Presbyterian Hospital. Donations to Lincoln Center for Performing Arts. I read he dished out $1.2 billion for good causes nationwide. I guess good causes is subjective. Now, back to racking him over the coals of hell.

 

[Tekate]

What does Bader Ginsburg have to do with Koch??

In his lifetime Koch gave away 1billion, so he now has 49 billion left to give to his heirs, and the estate will continue to grow and grow.

to me 1/50th of your net worth if it's 50 billion isnt much.

And RBG.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/7536...nt-another-round-of-cancer-treatment-this-sum


https://www.foxbusiness.com/busines...iving-back-to-charity-heres-where-it-all-went

 

[Bonfire]

I don’t disagree @Tekate , the philanthropy doesn’t negate the scorched earth.

 

[JPie]

What does Bader Ginsburg have to do with Koch??

In his lifetime Koch gave away 1billion, so he now has 49 billion left to give to his heirs, and the estate will continue to grow and grow.

to me 1/50th of your net worth if it's 50 billion isnt much.

RBG has nothing to do with David Koch’s death aside from a pathetic attempt at whataboutism, and a premature one at that. “What if conservatives celebrated the death of RBG? SEE?! It’s not okay!”

Yeah, RBG and Koch brothers aren’t even close to being moral equivalents if you’re talking about legacies of evil and harm. I might even chalk it up to that tribalism so often denounced by those hypocrites complaining about it.

 

[Bonfire]

RBG has nothing to do with David Koch’s death aside from a pathetic attempt at whataboutism, and a premature one at that. “What if conservatives celebrated the death of RBG? SEE?! It’s not okay!”

Yeah, RBG and Koch brothers aren’t even close to being moral equivalents if you’re talking about legacies of evil and harm. I might even chalk it up to that tribalism so often denounced by those hypocrites complaining about it.

It seems you are misinterpreting @redwood66 post. She had me quoted with my words bolded. Her reference to RBG was to include her as a recent cancer recipient of treatment at Memorial Sloan Kettering.

 

[redwood66]

It seems you are misinterpreting @redwood66 post. She had me quoted with my words bolded. Her reference to RBG was to include her as a recent cancer recipient of treatment at Memorial Sloan Kettering.

Well at least you understood the meaning of my post. I'm sure an apology is forthcoming from others though.

 

[redwood66]

What does Bader Ginsburg have to do with Koch??

In his lifetime Koch gave away 1billion, so he now has 49 billion left to give to his heirs, and the estate will continue to grow and grow.

to me 1/50th of your net worth if it's 50 billion isnt much.

See Bonfire's post above.

 

[JPie]

Well at least you understood the meaning of my post. I'm sure an apology is forthcoming from others though.

Koch’s self-serving donations to cancer research don’t negate all the harm he’s done and he deserves no credit for RBG’s cancer treatment.

I don’t know when you quote people I have on ignore. It’s clear you don’t expect an apology and I certainly won’t disappoint you.

 

[redwood66]

Koch’s self-serving donations to cancer research don’t negate all the harm he’s done and he deserves no credit for RBG’s cancer treatment.

I don’t know when you quote people I have on ignore. It’s clear you don’t expect an apology and I certainly won’t disappoint you.

You completely misunderstood my post that wasn't to you in the first place. An apology would be nice.

I have no idea who you have on ignore. Obviously not me.

 

[JPie]

You completely misunderstood my post that wasn't to you in the first place. An apology would be nice.

I have no idea who you have on ignore. Obviously not me.

I have bonfire on ignore. I don’t feel the need to apologize because my comment about hypocrisy stands. You complain about tribalism but where have you applied criticism to the right equally?

 

[redwood66]

I have bonfire on ignore. I don’t feel the need to apologize because my comment about hypocrisy stands. You complain about tribalism but where have you applied criticism to the right equally?

You wanted to mash me up on something that had nothing to do with my post to @Bonfire. Now you want to do it for another reason since the first one backfired. A simple "my bad" or "sorry for the misunderstanding" would have been just fine with me like I did earlier in this very thread to Monarch. We can be decent when it calls for it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I have no idea who you have on ignore. Obviously not me.

...Means I can post something nasty about her and she won't be able to reply...

 

[JPie]

You wanted to mash me up on something that had nothing to do with my post to @Bonfire. Now you want to do it for another reason since the first one backfired. A simple "my bad" or "sorry for the misunderstanding" would have been just fine with me like I did earlier in this very thread to Monarch. We can be decent when it calls for it.

I concede that I took your comment out of context, and for that I apologize.

As for the concept of decency, I'll be receptive to your ideas on the subject when you can explain why you have no problems with separating families at the border.

If you want me to illuminate you on how it's hypocritical for you to complain about tribalism, please feel free to find my contact info on LT.

 

[redwood66]

Thanks for the apology. I'm on LT as well so reach out if you want.

 

[Tekate]

so sorry, uh I am old and quotes get to me.

Ginsburg, like Koch was able to have access to the BEST medicine money can buy. She was nowhere near Koch in the money department but her prestige was higher than Koch's. I would like to think she will be cancer free but this latest occurrence is not that great a sign.

See Bonfire's post above.

 

[redwood66]

so sorry, uh I am old and quotes get to me.

Ginsburg, like Koch was able to have access to the BEST medicine money can buy. She was nowhere near Koch in the money department but her prestige was higher than Koch's. I would like to think she will be cancer free but this latest occurrence is not that great a sign.

No worries my friend. It is too bad about the latest round and I hope she is able to thwart it once again.

 

[GlitterInMyHair]

Well good riddance!

 

[redwood66]

Whoa. OK. This is too much.

 

[Ceilimom]

I am sure his loved ones will miss him.
—————

On a snarky but not improbable point...

I wonder if his will will specify who will inherit the senators and congressmen he bought?

Oh that's Perfect!