By the Numbers ... Visual Differences in MRB specs

[the_mother_thing]

For the sake of argument: both diamonds are eye clean, good ASET/IS, color is fine, diamonds both look great in video, etc.

I realize everyone has individual preferences for specs; but looking STRICTLY at these numbers and how certain combos work together, what are the differences in performance one might expect to see in person as a result of the differences in specs between Diamonds A & B aside from one possibly facing up a smidge more than the other?

For example, Diamond A has a slightly smaller table, lower CA, higher PA, etc. than Diamond B. What would those differences translate into between these two? Would they be noticeably different side-by-side only to someone with eagle eyes, or are they significant enough differences that they would be visually distinguishable to even an average or slightly-above average consumer?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Karl_K]

There is not enough difference between them that if both are super ideals to tell them apart even under close inspection.

 

[yssie]

Also - those differences are within error margins on the scanners - in reality they may not even actually be present as depicted!

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thank you, @Karl_K & @yssie Both are AGS ideal; one is considered a ”super” ideal; both diamonds are from well-respected super ideal vendors. I’m only restricting the vendor and other details to keep things as neutral as possible, given I am able to weigh those myself and I appreciate that some people might give an automatic ‘advantage’ to one over the other based on vendor, super-ideal status, etc.

Does that change your opinion in any way? If so, how? Would one - being a super ideal - lead you to believe that the difference in CA, depth, etc. or the inverse relationship between the specs might truly produce something more materially different (good or bad) than the other? If so, do you need to know which one is the super ideal vs. ideal to make that distinction? In my mind, I’ve already assigned a ‘decision value’ for the super ideal status, given the potentially higher precision level of cut.

This is not an ‘emotional’ decision for me; rather, as a pragmatic person, I need to break down the differences (where reasonably possible) in order for me to determine a ‘mind-clean financial threshold’ based on those differences (hope that makes sense). If there really aren’t any reasonably discernible differences “by the numbers”, I’m okay with that, and can make the decision based on what I have (there are other pro/con factors I’m considering but can assign a favor or value to them without others’ input). In asking my above questions, I’m just trying to make sure I consider all factors to the extent I can.

 

[Wewechew]

The only thing I would be able to tell with my eyes would be the differences in LGFs; I prefer 76. I’ve had a 77 and I just wasn’t drawn to it like I have been all my 76s. Would most people be able to see the difference? Probably not.

 

[the_mother_thing]

The only thing I would be able to tell with my eyes would be the differences in LGFs; I prefer 76. I’ve had a 77 and I just wasn’t drawn to it like I have been all my 76s. Would most people be able to see the difference? Probably not.

Thank you for chiming in! Might you by chance have any pictures (your own or vendor) of your diamonds that show the 76 vs 77, or even just the 76? What was the visual difference? Thinner/fatter arrows? Contrast?

 

[gm89uk]

76 slightly fatter arrows, slightly bolder flashes.

 

[WinkHPD]

For the sake of argument: both diamonds are eye clean, good ASET/IS, color is fine, diamonds both look great in video, etc.

I realize everyone has individual preferences for specs; but looking STRICTLY at these numbers and how certain combos work together, what are the differences in performance one might expect to see in person as a result of the differences in specs between Diamonds A & B aside from one possibly facing up a smidge more than the other?

For example, Diamond A has a slightly smaller table, lower CA, higher PA, etc. than Diamond B. What would those differences translate into between these two? Would they be noticeably different side-by-side only to someone with eagle eyes, or are they significant enough differences that they would be visually distinguishable to even an average or slightly-above average consumer?

Thanks in advance!

Unfortunately, the paper does not tell the whole story. And, as @yssie points out the scanners are never quite perfect. The simple answer is that the ability to cut to perfection exceeds the ability of the scanners to measure.

More important is the precision with which the diamonds are cut. Were the diamonds cut to maximize the size of the internal mirrors with the creation of the hearts and arrows patterns a side effect of the absolute precision with which the diamond was crafted, or was the diamond cut to create a hearts and arrows pattern, even if the performance is slightly lessened?

The diamond crafted to increase the size of the internal mirrors will have larger flashes of both white and colored light and will indeed look somehow crisper and more magical than a diamond that is similar on paper, but not equal in the precision of the cutting.

I have spent many hours trying to capture this on film, to no real avail. However, in real life our clients often point out to us what they are seeing differently when comparing diamonds in a slotted tray, without knowing which diamond is which. The words crisper and more magical are taken from comments from our clients.

I would venture that the only way to know for sure which diamond you will like better, is to arrange to see them both, preferably side by side, and then make the decision based on which YOUR eyes like best.

The true joy to your question is that twenty-five years ago, the perfection available today, in both of the diamonds you present, was virtually unknown. Now it is still largely unknown to the average diamond consumer, but more and more of them are being introduced to the concept. My dream is that someday, the majority of diamond cutters will be dragged, most likely kicking and screaming, into cutting diamonds for beauty rather than weight retention. Then all diamond buyers, whether well educated or not, will receive greater value for their hard earned money.

Wink

 

[Wewechew]

Thank you for chiming in! Might you by chance have any pictures (your own or vendor) of your diamonds that show the 76 vs 77, or even just the 76? What was the visual difference? Thinner/fatter arrows? Contrast?

I’ve found the 76 and the 75 LFGs to be more bright in dim light because of the bigger arrows. But aside from that, I also like chunky arrows: I’m drawn to transitional cuts and not a fan of the splintery arrows in moissantite. So I’m sure that plays into my preferences too.

Here is a thread with the 77 LGF:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/upgrade-1-27ct-vs1-k-hpd-in-sholdt.245837/

Here are pics of the 76 LGF, 1.28ct I. I don’t know if the differences translate in photos? It’s even hard for me to differentiate between the two stones in pictures. But I was able to tell in person, and this was not the first instance of not being drawn to a 77 that was in my hand next to a 76. So take that for what you will



ETA: the K pictures were taken with my old phone, and the I pics were taken with my new one. So that’s another variable between the two set of pics.

 

[the_mother_thing]

76 slightly fatter arrows, slightly bolder flashes.

Good to know; I’ll add that to my list of things to make sure I evaluate when I see both in person; thank you so much!

I would venture that the only way to know for sure which diamond you will like better, is to arrange to see them both, preferably side by side, and then make the decision based on which YOUR eyes like best.

Thanks for chiming in, Wink! I appreciate the points you make with regard to the precision cutting; and I am definitely accounting for exactly that in my criteria/considerations when I do as you suggest above. I know how hard it is to try and evaluate these things via videos & pictures, especially when the light sources, set-ups, etc. are not the same, so that is in the works.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@Wewechew In the thread you linked, is it that the first couple pictures you posted (initial post) are 77 LGFs and the later pictures once you upgraded color are 76s?

 

[Wewechew]

@Wewechew In the thread you linked, is it that the first couple pictures you posted (initial post) are 77 LGFs and the later pictures once you upgraded color are 76s?

The pictures are all of the K until you get to page 3, when I post an “update” and say the K was too warm for me. All of the pics after that post are of the I with 76 LGFs.

 

[the_mother_thing]

The pictures are all of the K until you get to page 3, when I post an “update” and say the K was too warm for me. All of the pics after that post are of the I with 76 LGFs.

Okay, so I’m clear, the pics you posted on page one (the K) are 77 LGFs; and, the pics on page 3 (the I) are 76 LGFs?

 

[Wewechew]

Okay, so I’m clear, the pics you posted on page one (the K) are 77 LGFs; and, the pics on page 3 (the I) are 76 LGFs?

Yes

 

[the_mother_thing]

@Wewechew I hope you don’t mind, and I hope I have these straight based on what you posted above to be the ‘I’ with 76s, and the ‘K’ with 77s in the other thread. And FTR, I get that we’re talking two different diamonds, two different lighting environments, and two different cameras. Those things aside, I put the two side-by-side just to see if - even magnified - I might be able to possibly detect a difference in the width of appearance in the arrows, since you do happen to have two diamonds from the same vendor in an almost exactly similar tilt/picture setting to do so.

Note: I’m not basing my decision solely on this; rather, I am more curious how this one degree difference may equate when I view both in person to think about how obvious - to me - this difference might be.

 

[gm89uk]

That's not the only difference, the diamond on the right has a larger table, larger table reflection, probably slightly steeper pavillion/ shallower crown combo to the one on the left.

It may have slightly different personality because of those things, rather than the LGF.

 

[the_mother_thing]

That's not the only difference, the diamond on the right has a larger table, larger table reflection, probably slightly steeper pavillion/ shallower crown combo to the one on the left.

Thank you; I noted those numerical differences as well. It’s what/how they translate visually to the eyes that I am not sure about. What might you expect to see differently as a result of those two sets of specs?

For example, does one have specs that might produce a smidge more/less fire, scintillation, etc.; or is it literally attempting to split a gnat’s azz hair?

 

[Wewechew]

@Wewechew I hope you don’t mind, and I hope I have these straight based on what you posted above to be the ‘I’ with 76s, and the ‘K’ with 77s in the other thread. And FTR, I get that we’re talking two different diamonds, two different lighting environments, and two different cameras. Those things aside, I put the two side-by-side just to see if - even magnified - I might be able to possibly detect a difference in the width of appearance in the arrows, since you do happen to have two diamonds from the same vendor in an almost exactly similar tilt/picture setting to do so.

Note: I’m not basing my decision solely on this; rather, I am more curious how this one degree difference may equate when I view both in person to think about how obvious - to me - this difference might be.

You have them labeled correctly

I really think it’s something you will have to see in person to figure out if one of the diamonds speaks to you more. When I was researching my first WF diamond, I actually preferred how 77s looked in pictures, but ended up getting a 76 because of a higher color grade. LOVED that diamond. Bought a 77 that was slightly bigger from another vendor, and returned it because I wasn’t thrilled with it next to my original 76. Both were super ideals, but I couldn’t pin point why I preferred one over the other until later.

It wasn’t until I bought my 77 K from CBI that I realized my eyes could detect differences in the LGF angles.

All this to say- you need to see them in person. Just because you like something in pictures doesn’t mean it will translate in person, especially where diamonds are concerned.

 

[Wewechew]

It’s funny you posted this thread when you did, because I am looking at two diamonds with very similar proportions except for one having a slightly (like .4) bigger table. I was wondering last night if I would be able identify that difference in person.

I know, I’m probably certifiable.

 

[the_mother_thing]

It’s funny you posted this thread when you did, because I am looking at two diamonds with very similar proportions except for one having a slightly (like .4) bigger table. I was wondering last night if I would be able identify that difference in person.

I know, I’m probably certifiable.

You are NOT certifiable! I have a spreadsheet built to assess the different specs and pros/cons for each option, etc. For me, it’s just part of my personality to try and assess each factor as part of the ‘bigger whole’ decision. I don’t want to not consider these things now, then notice it in 6 months, and discover that had I been even more pragmatic in assessing them at purchase, I might have noticed it and chosen differently. It’s just one of the pros & cons of being a PSer, I suppose.

 

[Wewechew]

You are NOT certifiable! I have a spreadsheet built to assess the different specs and pros/cons for each option, etc. For me, it’s just part of my personality to try and assess each factor as part of the ‘bigger whole’ decision. I don’t want to not consider these things now, then notice it in 6 months, and discover that had I been even more pragmatic in assessing them at purchase, I might have noticed it and chosen differently. It’s just one of the pros & cons of being a PSer, I suppose.

I love that you have a spreadsheet!!!

 

[the_mother_thing]

To try and look at ‘apples to apples’, I managed to find two diamonds available from the same vendor, identical light set-ups in the videos, etc. One diamond had 76, the other had 77. I noted that the one with 77 LGFs had a smaller table vs. the one with 76. And, to my eyes, the one with 77 LGFs actually seemed to have slightly fatter arrows than the one with 76 LGFs.

So, this raises the question: does it make sense that a smaller table might ‘enhance’ the appearance of arrows? This probably spans into that whole ‘inverse relationship’ consideration. And since the table is the ‘lens’ into the diamond, that would/could make sense to me. Anyone know/can elaborate on that? Does a smaller table ‘magnify’ (even microscopically) the appearance of the arrows?

(@Wewechew THIS is where I dip my toe in the ‘certifiable’ pond )

 

[Wewechew]

To try and look at ‘apples to apples’, I managed to find two diamonds available from the same vendor, identical light set-ups in the videos, etc. One diamond had 76, the other had 77. I noted that the one with 77 LGFs had a smaller table vs. the one with 76. And, to my eyes, the one with 77 LGFs actually seemed to have slightly fatter arrows than the one with 76 LGFs.

So, this raises the question: does it make sense that a smaller table might ‘enhance’ the appearance of arrows? This probably spans into that whole ‘inverse relationship’ consideration. And since the table is the ‘lens’ into the diamond, that would/could make sense to me. Anyone know/can elaborate on that? Does a smaller table ‘magnify’ (even microscopically) the appearance of the arrows?

(@Wewechew THIS is where I dip my toe in the ‘certifiable’ pond )

Oh boy... this is something I haven’t dug into, but it *has* crossed my mind. My I 76 has a smaller table than the K 77, and the arrow contrast on my 76 seems to be more than it was with the 77.

But honestly, I’ve tried not to analyze that too much... because rabbit hole

 

[Wewechew]

@the_mother_thing what are the two table sizes?

 

[the_mother_thing]

@the_mother_thing what are the two table sizes?

The ‘apples to apples’ samples were: 76er’s table = 56.2; the 77er’s table = 55.5.

 

[Karl_K]

1% lgf% is inside the expected error range based on scanner accuracy, rounding, and averaging.
Yes different angle combinations combined with table sizes pop the arrows more than others.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Arrows on my 2.60 ct

My DD's


My old 2.35ct


My wife's 80% LGF

 

[Wewechew]

@Dancing Fire did you notice a difference in the diamonds? Do you prefer some of the diamonds over others?

 

[yssie]

Karl's article for PS:
https://www.pricescope.com/articles/do_pavilion_mains_drive_light_return_modern_round_brilliant

WF's page on lower halves:
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/facets-the-lower-halves.htm

 

[Dancing Fire]

@Dancing Fire did you notice a difference in the diamonds? Do you prefer some of the diamonds over others?

I think every diamond have a different behavior only you can decide for yourself. I have always been a fan of small table on a high crown...that just me... . You may prefer strawberry ice cream over chocolate ice cream. IMO, there are no wrong choices if you stick with super ideal cuts.