Blue sapphire question

[Pinkmartini87]

So tempting...did you ask for indoor shots? If you "cannot live without it", you might want to put it on hold (is that possible?) in case of lurkers.

@Rad_Fan That’s a good suggestion! I do think I see a visible inclusion though that may bother me:

 

[Pinkmartini87]

Just for learning purposes, what do you all think of the price on this much lighter sapphire listed on LT:

https://loupetroop.com/listings/loo...face-up-size-payment-plan-possible-with-video

Its odd but I tend to like either quite light stones or very saturated/darker stones, but not stones in the middle lol. To me $12k sounds a little steep for this non trade color though even if it is unheated?

 

[voce]

It's over 4 carats and eye-clean. You could bargain a bit, but considering many better colored heated sapphires are around the same price, I'd say it's fair. To the best of my knowledge, you can heat sapphires so their color becomes more even and generally darker. Heat and color is a fair trade-off.

 

[Rad_Fan]

I think the top stone is nicely saturated for a dark stone, wish it were a bit lighter though, and it’s not vivid, but it’s a pretty color. I think the bottom stone is a bit too dark, and it’s grayer and darker than OTL’s and the roadshow’s to my eye. I’m not crazy about it, but I like it better than the Diana ring. It still has too many areas of extinction.

Interesting. I thought the bottom one was more vivid in terms of saturation, no? My screen didn't show gray from the 2nd one, the blue scintillation was very nice to my eyes and very evenly throughout. Lively imho and didn't show any of that pale blue flash like those I posted at the beginning of the thread.

I do agree that the 1st one was a bit dark and sleepy. Maybe just the light?

This is a good way to "pick out" favorites out of a tray of med. dark...

WWW

 

[Rad_Fan]

After watching that tray of sapphires from above, I think that I want one without a huge table. Otherwise, it just reflects whatever light it's under, and reduces the appearance of blue, is that true?

The chemical composition of sapphire is more reflective than that of emerald? I've seen big table emeralds, but I recalled that I could still see green from them.

 

[Rad_Fan]

@Rad_Fan That’s a good suggestion! I do think I see a visible inclusion though that may bother me:

I buy gems for their colors. Clarity "might not" be as important to me. I enjoy rings from an arm length and if I don't see the inclusion from that distance, it's ok by me if the color is awesome (to me anyway). Other experienced members and collectors might disagree. It's a personal choice.

If you get a video, try to check that spot. I mostly want to see what shade(s) of blue away from bright light. I've checked her Etsy account and found the listing of the same ring. The 1st picture there looked even more "glamourized". The seller didn't use that picture on LT thought.

 

[T L]

Interesting. I thought the bottom one was more vivid in terms of saturation, no? My screen didn't show gray from the 2nd one, the blue scintillation was very nice to my eyes and very evenly throughout. Lively imho and didn't show any of that pale blue flash like those I posted at the beginning of the thread.

I do agree that the 1st one was a bit dark and sleepy. Maybe just the light?

This is a good way to "pick out" favorites out of a tray of med. dark...

WWW

That bottom stone was full of extinction. Look at all the dark areas in this one photo still. Then compare it to OTL’s stone and you see a more pure blue with no extinction. It’s easier to see the difference side by side. I dislike when red spinels have lots of dark areas of extinction as well. They tend to look very pyrope like.

 

[T L]

Some of those stones in the tray are true darks, not even medium darks.

 

[Rad_Fan]

...to me $12k sounds a little steep for this non trade color though even if it is unheated?

I like the spread of it and 5.23mm doesn't seem to be too deep so you get a nice finger coverage. AGL Unheated also sounds fancy and nice.

However, I've seen similar carat weight, also AGL unheated, but in richer blue tone and more saturated at less than $2.9K/ct.

Per @voce advice, you could talk to the seller if you really like it.

 

[Rad_Fan]

I thought extinction means the typical 1/2 bright and 1/2 dark effect found in many elongated cut sapphires? I see this one as having good "contrast" from pictures. It reminds me a bit of @arkieb1 collection. The dark areas are more than those of her awesome EC sapphire for sure.

Does the same sapphire look more silky HERE?

 

[Pinkmartini87]

@voce and @Rad_Fan thank you both for your thoughts and expertise! I will reach out to the seller and will share any more photos and videos I get!

 

[voce]

I thought extinction means the typical 1/2 bright and 1/2 dark effect found in many elongated cut sapphires? I see this one as having good "contrast" from pictures. It reminds me a bit of @arkieb1 collection. The dark areas are more than those of her awesome EC sapphire for sure.

Does the same sapphire look more silky HERE?

The half and half effect isn't technically extinction because when those in the trade evaluate brilliance in an elongated cut, they do so half the stone at a time...

Extinction is having areas where there is no light return back through the table no matter how the stone is turned; the second photo rather confirms that there is extinction, it just doesn't look that bad because of the silkiness as it would without the silkiness.

 

[T L]

I thought extinction means the typical 1/2 bright and 1/2 dark effect found in many elongated cut sapphires? I see this one as having good "contrast" from pictures. It reminds me a bit of @arkieb1 collection. The dark areas are more than those of her awesome EC sapphire for sure.

Does the same sapphire look more silky HERE?

No, that’s just half and half extinction. Extinction is any type of dark area which can be caused by overly dark material, poor cutting, or a combination of both. Sometimes a recut can alleviate extinction, or sometimes it can adversely affect saturation. However, some gems are just so naturally dark, that nothing helps.

The best sapphires are more of a medium tone, However, some people prefer darker sapphires (ie The British Royals). I personally do not, but since you were asking about trade ideals, the finest sapphires are medium tone, vivid blue saturation, with a bit of silk, but not too much.

 

[arkieb1]

The emerald cut I have has no extinction. It's a pretty decent uniform colour and to the eye in person it has an even colour across the whole stone, I have a cushion I've never posted photos of I've been thinking about selling it has extinction, which is a bit of a shame really because it would have been a pretty decent colour (it's lighter than some of the other sapphires I have) but the extinction makes the whole stone appear darker than it should be.

You keep making the mistake of looking at the different colours the camera is picking up light wise..... several times including at the beginning of the post you ask or say you don't like a specific stone because it has extinction, yet most of the examples you give don't have it at all....

Extinction is real areas in a stone that always appear dark because of the way it has been cut, not simply the way the light is reflecting picked up by a camera. Stones can have 1/4 extinction, 1/3 extinction, 1/2 extinction or greater (I've seen 3/4 extinction) or much higher proportion which causes the stone to always mostly be overly dark.

 

[T L]

I firgot to mention that some stones also get more extinct based on the lighting. Some garnets and tourmaline are infamous for this. They’re brighter and pretty in one form of light, but can go very extinct in another light source. I don’t see that in sapphire as an issue, only a color shift to a less saturated hue. I just wanted to mention this other form of extinction since you were asking about this phenomenon.

 

[Rad_Fan]

After reading an old thread, Blue sapphires with no half/half extinction? I would like to say that I am embarrassed for using the word, extinction, on my earlier posts.

@arkieb1 I really like your emerald cut sapphire, especially in white background. It opened my eyes to the possibility of buying a deeper blue sapphire. I used to think that darker blue was automatically out unit I saw that ec sapphire! I really don’t care about buying one in trade ideal color, I want to buy one for my own enjoyment.

I mistakenly asked you if it had “extinction like look” on post #48. I didn’t know much about this term and thought that was what I would call it when seeing mixed tones from a still image. On post #190, what I should have said was, the tone of IG williamleelee521's sapphire reminded me of the deep velvet blue like yours, but even darker.

I am starting to like that deep blue tone, then I read that his had extinction

 

[Rad_Fan]

Back to asking question. williamleelee521 sapphire had extinction because the 10-11 o’clock stayed dark from all images? The vertical middle dark bar showed up when viewing face up only but it disappeared when tilted. Is that shadowing?

 

[T L]

In transparent stones, extinction doesn’t always stay in the same place. It can change depending on your line of sight. That stone has too many dark extinct areas for my taste, but if you like darker stones, that’s what you like. Trade ideals aren’t always the ideal for everyone, but you should pay a fair price nonetheless.

 

[Rad_Fan]

Just browsing and found this. I am curious what made it $3951 per ct? There are prettier sapphires, to my eyes anyway, offered by them and cost much less!

leibish

 

[voce]

Typical vendor markup. Maybe they think it's the same blue as Diana's sapphire.

 

[pristine]

I take exception to this commentary on their item description. Heat us assumed, but that can mean diffusion as well. They conveniently left that tidbit of information out. It also only has an appraisal, not a real lab report.

“Treatment: None, other than heat treatment is assumed. Please read this blog to understand why heat treatment should be assumed in all sapphires unless accompanied by certification by the main GIA or GRS labs stating otherwise. https://pristinegemstonejewelry.com...reated-sapphires-by-pristine-gemstone-jewelry”

Hi TL,

Just to clarify, when we say "heat is assumed" we don't mean diffusion as well. It is hard to cover everything, so feel free to ask us questions directly. We are very honest people. If we make a mistake, we are happy to take responsibility. We have no reason to mislead anyone. We are just liquidating our inventory and want our customers to be happy with their purchases. Rogerio has been doing this since 1992, so it is time for him to move on. Also, to clarify, appraisals are legal documents more in depth than certificates. Gemologists are required to disclose all known treatments, and the retail replacement value they provide is indeed based on treatments as well as all other quality factors. I hope this helps! Thank you. ~ Andrea

 

[pristine]

Hi TL,

Just to clarify, when we say "heat is assumed" we don't mean diffusion as well. It is hard to cover everything, so feel free to ask us questions directly. We are very honest people. If we make a mistake, we are happy to take responsibility. We have no reason to mislead anyone. We are just liquidating our inventory and want our customers to be happy with their purchases. Rogerio has been doing this since 1992, so it is time for him to move on. Also, to clarify, appraisals are legal documents more in depth than certificates. Gemologists are required to disclose all known treatments, and the retail replacement value they provide is indeed based on treatments as well as all other quality factors. I hope this helps! Thank you. ~ Andrea

ps. I should mention that perhaps our pricing makes you nervous about treatments? The reason our pricing is so reasonable is because most of the inventory that we are selling now had been purchased 20 or so years ago when Rogerio was building his inventory as a wholesale supplier. We continued to sell to the public at wholesale pricing once the internet became a good venue. Also, according to a gemologist we used to use who is now retired, treatments started to become more sophisticated and difficult to detect in the past decade or so. Again, the majority of our stones were purchased prior to that time.

Regardless, we fully respect and support customers sending our stones for a 3rd opinion if they chose to do so. When customers purchase from us, shipping to them is free, and we provide full refunds no questions asked if a customer wants to return a piece within our refund time frame (items must be posted back to us within 14 days of receipt. That being said, extensions are available on a case by case basis), and the customer is responsible for return shipping.

Again, please feel free to reach out for clarification. It is hard to cover everything, although we have tried.

Thank you.
Andrea

 

[KLC]

That bottom stone was full of extinction. Look at all the dark areas in this one photo still. Then compare it to OTL’s stone and you see a more pure blue with no extinction. It’s easier to see the difference side by side. I dislike when red spinels have lots of dark areas of extinction as well. They tend to look very pyrope like.

I don't fully understand extinction. But I'm not gonna lie, I like the bottom stone better than the top. It's extremely similar to my sapphire e-ring, although much larger. Lol. But my sapphire doesn't perform very well in very low light. It becomes extremely dark. Is that because of the extinction? If so, I may have to rethink my preference.

 

[T L]

Hi TL,

Gemologists are required to disclose all known treatments, and the retail replacement value they provide is indeed based on treatments as well as all other quality factors. I hope this helps! Thank you. ~ Andrea

Not all treatment, in particular for corundum, can be determined with standard gemological equipment. I learned this the hard way. This is why a highly reputable lab with a mass spectrometer or other highly specialized equipment are often necessary. Also, while you may claim that gemologist are required by law to disclose all known treatment, some gemologists, I’m sad to say, are not as good as others, and again, this is why I trust expensive corundum to the best and most highly reputable labs in the world. Many customers insist on these lab reports, not just me.

 

[T L]

Also, according to a gemologist we used to use who is now retired, treatments started to become more sophisticated and difficult to detect in the past decade or so.

Exactly

 

[pristine]

Not all treatment, in particular for corundum, can be determined with standard gemological equipment. I learned this the hard way. This is why a highly reputable lab with a mass spectrometer or other highly specialized equipment are often necessary. Also, while you may claim that gemologist are required by law to disclose all known treatment, some gemologists, I’m sad to say, are not as good as others, and again, this is why I trust expensive corundum to the best and most highly reputable labs in the world. Many customers insist on these lab reports, not just me.

Hi TL.

Yes, that is correct. Again, we fully respect and support customers sending our stones for a 3rd opinion if they chose to do so. We live in a very rural area of Nova Scotia, so we have two gemmologists at our disposal. That is it.

When customers purchase from us, shipping to them is free, and we provide full refunds no questions asked if a customer wants to return a piece within our refund time frame (items must be posted back to us within 14 days of receipt. That being said, extensions are available on a case by case basis), and the customer is responsible for return shipping.

Also, because we are gemstone suppliers our pricing is wholesale pricing and does not include the pricing of a lab report. It is as though we are selling to a jeweler. This is how things have been done between suppliers and jewelers as long as Rogerio has been in business. We carry 1000s of gemstones, and it isn’t feasible to have all of our stones certified, nor would it be standard practice for any supplier, so again, if a customer wishes, we fully support their going to an independent lab.

I hope this makes sense. Really, it sounds like we are on the same page. I just needed to clarify that we aren't trying to mislead anyone in any way shape or form and that our situation is a bit different seeing as we are wholesale suppliers.

Thank you.
Andrea

 

[pristine]

Exactly

Most of our inventory was purchased prior to that time. Rogerio started as a professional gem cutter and wholesale supplier in 1992. He traveled a lot to the mining sites during that time acquiring the bulk of our inventory. As a supplier, he needed to have a lot on hand.

 

[T L]

I don’t know anything about your company Andrea, but thank you for clarifying your return policy and other aspects of your business. My skepticism isn’t meant to put distrust in people about gems and the vendors offering them. As a consumer forum, I, and many others here, feel the need to educate consumers, especially when it comes to sapphires, rubies, emerald and alexandrite. Third party verification is always wise when it comes to those gems, no matter the vendor IMO.

 

[pristine]

I don’t know anything about your company Andrea, but thank you for clarifying your return policy and other aspects of your business. My skepticism isn’t meant to put distrust in people about gems and the vendors offering them. As a consumer forum, I, and many others here, feel the need to educate consumers, especially when it comes to sapphires, rubies, emerald and alexandrite. Third party verification is always wise when it comes to those gems, no matter the vendor IMO.

Of course! Fully agreed TL! Thank you for clarifying the reason for your comments. We too educate our customers. Our blog, which you included in one of your posts, actually notes that only the GIA and GRS main labs have the necessary equipment to determine whether or not heat treatment is present. That is why we always make the assumption that heat treatment (not diffusion) is present in our sapphires.

 

[T L]

AGL can test for diffusion (heat, as far as I know, can be determined with standard gemologist equipment). I’ve sent a sapphire there and they had to utilize an LA-ICP-MS to test it. I would imagine SSEF has complete ability to test for diffusion as well. These four labs are the most highly regarded labs in the world (SSEF, AGL, AGL and GRS).

Our blog, which you included in one of your posts, actually notes that only the GIA and GRS main labs have the necessary equipment to determine whether or not heat treatment is present.