Jeffrey Epstein

[monarch64]

Yup, typical left wingers, if people don't agree with their political views then they just don't wanna engage with you. I'll never agree with the radical Dems on PS, but I still don't have any animosities towards any one of you.

Oh come on, DF. People have engaged with you for YEARS. It's possible that some of your rhetoric has influenced passers-by and possibly regular members. Fine, whatever. I'm not ashamed to say that you were right about several things including the housing bubble/economy bubble bursting back in 2006-07. But here's what: you'd garner so much more respect and maybe actually be listened to if you weren't so ****ing disrespectful and insensitive on issues like the ones being discussed in this thread. I don't know what it is about boomers and refusing to be told what to do and how to do it...the phrase "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" is ages old and supersedes every generation's way of thinking because it's freaking TRUE.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Where did I defended Epstein on this thread?

 

[monarch64]

Where did I defended Epstein on this thread?

Don't you DARE play dumb with me. You know exactly how you stirred the pot, just like you always do. I'm not about to be gaslighted with your b.s.

 

[AV_]

I believe this man's business was extortion - a counterpart to his better known work ,(

This story is the best case in point I know for having many, many, many political parties - whereas the kind of loyalty required for such things is impossible absolutely, regardless of electoral circumstane & such. I cannot bring myself to honor such men with a vote - or half a vote, or even casual contemplation of voting. Innanimate objects ought to be enough.

 

[AV_]

@Dancing Fire I hear you on political persuasion; I take it is blindness to consequence. Politics picks up the grandest fads from my walk of life.

 

[Calliecake]

Today a Judge said he needs more time to decide if Jeffrey Epstein will be released on bail. The man is a predator who has been abusing girls for decades but hey, he has money. SMDH

 

[Dancing Fire]

Today a Judge said he needs more time to decide if Jeffrey Epstein will be released on bail. The man is a predator who has been abusing girls for decades but hey, he has money. SMDH

He shouldn't be release on bail, period!

 

[Demon]

And apparently they found a passport from another country, in another name.

 

[AGBF]

And apparently they found a passport from another country, in another name.

It was Saudi Arabian. Epstein impresses me as someone who would get along with MBS (MrBoneSaw).

 

[Calliecake]

And apparently they found a passport from another country, in another name.

Epstein will flea the country as soon as he is released. He’s a rich powerful white man. They are never held accountable.

 

[canuk-gal]

Epstein will flea the country as soon as he is released. He’s a rich powerful white man. They are never held accountable.

Huge flight risk.

 

[Demon]

Epstein will flea the country as soon as he is released. He’s a rich powerful white man. They are never held accountable.

Exactly. And even if they found one passport, how many others could be out there....maybe stored with some of his rich pervert buddies?

 

[MollyMalone]

Today a Judge said he needs more time to decide if Jeffrey Epstein will be released on bail. The man is a predator who has been abusing girls for decades but hey, he has money. SMDH

Just as a FYI: there's nothing all that unusual about Judge Berman announcing this morning that he will issue his bail decision on Thursday. He couldn't compose it ahead of time because the purpose of this morning's session was to hear the lawyers' arguments, and consider any additional information that wasn't in the previous filings. Plus, he's a very deliberate judge who's well aware that his bail decision will be appealed no matter how he rules, wants to make sure that his decision reflects his consideration of all the relevant factors, "dots all the i's, crosses all the t's." (The bail determination isn't as cut-and-dried as many folks think.) Plus, this isn't the only case on his docket. So the fact that he didn't rule on Epstein's bail application today is not a predictor of the outcome on Thursday.

 

[Demon]

It was Saudi Arabian. Epstein impresses me as someone who would get along with MBS (MrBoneSaw).

Doesn't he just though? I imagine he's right in with them.

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for the reply @MollyMalone .

I don’t have a lot of faith In our justice system regarding Epstein.

 

[MissStepcut]

Yup, typical left wingers, if people don't agree with their political views then they just don't wanna engage with you. I'll never agree with the radical Dems on PS, but I still don't have any animosities towards any one of you.

If no animosity why do you constantly lie to them? Such a strange way to conduct yourself if you don’t have bad faith intentions.

 

[MissStepcut]

I spent some time today digging into the court documents and I gotta say, I think the media has really misreported this story.

1) I had the impression Epstein offered himself up to protect his powerful friends by getting immunity for “coconspirators.” Not really true. He may have protected members of his sex trafficking ring but that’s about has far as his plea bargain could have reached.

2) the government had a damn difficult case. The girls were in fact paid, so yes, minors, but also prostitutes. And one victim expressed to the government that she hoped nothing bad happened to “awesome” Mr Epstein. Now don’t get me wrong. I think abuse victims often try to claim more agency over their choices and refuse to think of themselves as victims even when they clearly are. But those facts, the exchange of money and the lack of a consistent story among victims, made this a difficult criminal case.

Hopefully, in a post me-too era, victims can more clearly understand the issues, but even today, the witness at Epstein’s bail hearing refused to call what happened to her rape or sexual assault. That’s a bad jury witness, if rape or sexual assault is what you’re trying to prove up.

 

[Dancing Fire]

If no animosity why do you constantly lie to them? Such a strange way to conduct yourself if you don’t have bad faith intentions.

Lie to who??

 

[MollyMalone]

I spent some time today digging into the court documents and I gotta say, I think the media has really misreported this story.

1) I had the impression Epstein offered himself up to protect his powerful friends by getting immunity for “coconspirators.” Not really true. He may have protected members of his sex trafficking ring but that’s about has far as his plea bargain could have reached.

2) the government had a damn difficult case. The girls were in fact paid, so yes, minors, but also prostitutes. And one victim expressed to the government that she hoped nothing bad happened to “awesome” Mr Epstein. Now don’t get me wrong. I think abuse victims often try to claim more agency over their choices and refuse to think of themselves as victims even when they clearly are. But those facts, the exchange of money and the lack of a consistent story among victims, made this a difficult criminal case.

Hopefully, in a post me-too era, victims can more clearly understand the issues, but even today, the witness at Epstein’s bail hearing refused to call what happened to her rape or sexual assault. That’s a bad jury witness, if rape or sexual assault is what you’re trying to prove up.

I don't know which court documents you're referring to, but I would be very skeptical of anything from either the U.S. Attorney's Office under Acosta's tenure or the local prosecutor's office at the time or in the wake of the deal. Here's the link to one of the installments from the Miami Herald's investigative reporting series that I posted up-thread, where the Palm Beach Chief of Police and a detective at the time describe their frustration and dismayed disgust at the down-playing of it all:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article214210674.html

Also, I think it's very significant that no one in a position to know has denied the reports that the feds in Florida had actually drafted a preliminary 53-count indictment, but then there was no federal grand jury presentment. For those of us who are, or have been, prosecutors, that is highly unusual. Below are the 2 series of tweets that Ken White (a/k/a/ Popehat) -- a former federal prosecutor, now a criminal defense attorney and 1st Amendment litigator, who is one of the few people whose tweets I follow -- issued following Acosta's press conference, before Acosta resigned. It's a withering would-be cross-examination of Acosta that I think conveys how remarkable the white-washing deal and the surrounding circumstances, as reported, were:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1149062719095488512.html
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1149324913250988034.html

P.S. I myself attach no significance to the fact that Annie Farmer did not articulate today the nature of her encounters with Epstein years ago. This was not a trial. It was, however, the first time she'd publicly come forward, the first time she was facing Epstein as an accuser. She may have planned to say more or say it differently, but did not because of the emotional occasion it was for her -- more than a few media reporters noted that she choked up, her voice was cracking, after she made it through her first sentence.

 

[MissStepcut]

Ken White has no experience prosecuting rape cases. I do. He’s out over his skis on this.

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for your post @MollyMalone

I wish they had trauma experts explain to lawyers, prosecutors and jurors what severe trauma does to person and how people process trauma differently.

There are always people who try to discredit a person who has gone thru traumatic events because they don’t remember every detail the way they think they should remember something.

Is it really a surprise that this young woman would be traumatized seeing Epstein? This crime involved a man who was well into adulthood. He preyed on 14 year old girls.

 

[MollyMalone]

Ken White has no experience prosecuting rape cases. I do. He’s out over his skis on this.

I thought you've been a "BigLaw" attorney since graduation.

In any event, we'll have to agree to disagree about who's better positioned -- you or Ken White -- as to how the DoJ and the U.S. Attorney's Offices function. Will again encourage you & others to read the Miami Herald investigative report in its entirety; here's the introductory portal page -- the links to the rest of the series appear at the bottom of this page:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
Perhaps it will prompt you to reconsider the view re "the lack of a consistent story among the victims," for Epstein's alleged MO was not erratic. I'll also add that, had there been no variations in the victims' accounts, Epstein's lawyers would have branded that as evidence of coached fabrication.

 

[MissStepcut]

I thought you've been a "BigLaw" attorney since graduation.

In any event, we'll have to agree to disagree about who's better positioned -- you or Ken White -- as to how the DoJ and the U.S. Attorney's Offices function. Will again encourage you & others to read the Miami Herald investigative report in its entirety; here's the introductory portal page -- the links to the rest of the series appear at the bottom of this page:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
Perhaps it will prompt you to reconsider the view re "the lack of a consistent story among the victims," for Epstein's alleged MO was not erratic. I'll also add that, had there been no variations in the victims' accounts, Epstein's lawyers would have branded that as evidence of coached fabrication.

I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I’m not at all questioning that Epstein did everything he is accused of. I’m merely questioning the media narrative that the government let a slam-dunk case get away. It seems like it was actually a hard case for many reasons.

And while it is true that I have only ever worked for law firms, one of the opportunities I had as a lawyer at a big bleeding heart DC law firm is to serve as counsel for sex assault survivors seeking justice.

You don’t need to keep linking me media coverage. I’ve read it.

 

[MissStepcut]

Put differently, all the lawyers I know who have not worked on the prosecution side of rape cases are shocked by how much evidence you can have and still see the government refuse to bring charges. I am talking rape kits, text messages, pretext calls, social media posts, all sufficiently inculpatory that for just about any other crime, would be overwhelming, but in the sexual assault context, still can’t get over the bar.

 

[Alexiszoe]

@MissStepcut , not a lawyer and interested to know - why is the bar for prosecution of rape cases / sexual assaults seemingly so high compared to any other crime? It just baffles the mind and is absolutely infuriating.

 

[Calliecake]

Put differently, all the lawyers I know who have not worked on the prosecution side of rape cases are shocked by how much evidence you can have and still see the government refuse to bring charges. I am talking rape kits, text messages, pretext calls, social media posts, all sufficiently inculpatory that for just about any other crime, would be overwhelming, but in the sexual assault context, still can’t get over the bar.

That was extremely disappointing to read. On the other hand why would we expect anything different @MissStepcut ? We have a President who openly admits to sexual assault and brags about it. He was elected President after doing so. Look at all the evidence they had on Jeffrey Epstein and look how that played out.

Women are treated like second class citizens.

 

[AGBF]

Put differently, all the lawyers I know who have not worked on the prosecution side of rape cases are shocked by how much evidence you can have and still see the government refuse to bring charges. I am talking rape kits, text messages, pretext calls, social media posts, all sufficiently inculpatory that for just about any other crime, would be overwhelming, but in the sexual assault context, still can’t get over the bar.

I know nothing about prosecuting rape cases and I am not trying to get between two experienced attorneys like you and Molly Malone. I am posting that I appreciate your posting because it is illuminating to me as someone with no expertise in this field to read more about it written by someone who has worked in that area herself.

Thank you for taking time to write your thoughtful (as always) posts.

Deb

PS-I am not aiming at becoming an expert on Jeffrey Epstein, but I am afraid he is about to become the the topic of daily conversation. If I don't know the basics it will be like not knowing the current price of chicken per pound.

 

[Demon]

@MissStepcut

What I'm wondering is how if girls are too young for consensual sex, how can they not be too young to be considered a prostitute? Even if they accepted money and gifts, aren't they still sex-trafficking victims, and not prostitutes?

 

[MissStepcut]

@MissStepcut , not a lawyer and interested to know - why is the bar for prosecution of rape cases / sexual assaults seemingly so high compared to any other crime? It just baffles the mind and is absolutely infuriating.

To just be completely cynical I think it’s as simple as, these are he-said she-said cases that are hard to prove and prosecutors like easy cases.

 

[MissStepcut]

@MissStepcut

What I'm wondering is how if girls are too young for consensual sex, how can they not be too young to be considered a prostitute? Even if they accepted money and gifts, aren't they still sex-trafficking victims, and not prostitutes?

I don’t disagree but the FL crime he pled to was procurement of a woman under 18 for prostitution. Discussion is in this transcript:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6197537-Berman-Epstein-7-15-19.html