The Mueller Report Is Out

[Karl_K]

You know from a republican standpoint its a good thing that the democrats sit around and listen to their own propaganda then yell and scream.
Even better when they eat their own.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You know from a republican standpoint its a good thing that the democrats sit around and listen to their own propaganda then yell and scream.
Even better when they eat their own.

The more they scream IMPEACHMENT the easier for Trump to win in 2020.

 

[AGBF]

The more they scream IMPEACHMENT the easier for Trump to win in 2020.

That may be true, but is it correct for Congress to shirk its duty for political purposes? Congress has a duty to the Constitution, even though may be politically expedient to allow Trump to continue his lawlessness.

AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

That may be true, but is it correct for Congress to shirk its duty for political purposes? Congress has a duty to the Constitution, even though may be politically expedient to allow Trump to continue his lawlessness.

AGBF

On what grounds the politically motivated witch hunt failed and failed big.
Or for running options past legal council for dealing with an attempt to unseat a legally elected president?

 

[AGBF]

On what grounds the politically motivated witch hunt failed and failed big.
Or for running options past legal council for dealing with an attempt to unseat a legally elected president?

I disagree that there was a "politically motivated witch hunt" and your calling it that in your posting to me, attempting to make me swallow your terminology, will not change my logic or the logic of the many other people who hold the view that the Mueller investigation was no witch hunt.

Those of us who believe that the investigation was founded in an actual problem, namely Russian interference in the American elections, and who saw how many people wre found guilty of criminal activity by that investigation are glad that was undertaken.

Some of us who read the Mueller report believe that he found a great deal of malfeasance on the part of Donald Trump. Unlike you, we do not feel that the Mueller investigation "failed". We feel that it sent some criminals to jail and left the president's misdeeds uncovered.

PS-Telling Don McGahn to fire Robert Mueller is not "running options by legal council". Don McGahn threatened to resign over the illegal order Trump gave him.

AGBF

 

[Calliecake]

How do you not understand that the only reason Trump was not charged with obstruction is because Don McGahn didn’t do what Trump instructed him to do. He saved Trump’s presidency. It’s time to pull your head out of the sand.

How many innocent people would have said “This is the end of my Presidency, I’m fu@ked”???

If Trump was a Democrat, Republicans would be screaming impeachment from the rafters. The only difference is most democrats would be screaming the same thing. Clinton was impeached for lying about a blow job. The things Trump has done are FAR worse.


I’m sorry @AGBF . I was typing as you were posting. Thank you for putting your thoughts in an eloquent post, while I ranted LOL.

 

[AGBF]

Here are some more thoughts on the Mueller report (that are not for those who want to keep it simple).

"The Trump Campaign Conspired With the Russians. Mueller Proved It." by Jed Handelsman Shugerman
(excerpted)

"In his first letter after receiving the Mueller report, Attorney General William Barr accurately quoted it as saying that 'the investigation did not establish' that the Trump campaign 'conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.'

But the opposite is also true: The Mueller report does establish that, in fact, members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

How is this possible? It’s the difference between the report’s criminal prosecution standard of proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and a lower standard — the preponderance standard of 'more likely than not' — relevant for counterintelligence and general parlance about facts, and closer to the proper standard for impeachment.

There is confusion about the Mueller report’s fact-finding because he used the wrong coordination standard, obstruction probably obscured the evidence of crimes, and the summary was unclear about evidentiary standards. The report’s very high standard for legal conclusions for criminal charges was explicitly proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' So the report did not establish crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. But it did show a preponderance of conspiracy and coordination.

The Mueller report is best understood as two reports, and not just in its organization of one volume on Russia and one on obstruction. Each volume is one report on facts, and another on applying criminal law to those facts. When the report explains its prosecution decisions and interprets the legal questions of conspiracy and coordination, it repeatedly clarifies that its standard is 'whether admissible evidence would probably be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction.'

The '“prosecution and declination decisions' part of the report uses proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt' 10 times, particularly with respect to declining indictments for Russian contacts crimes for Paul Manafort and Donald Trump Jr.

The report is also a fact-finding investigation. In its introductory statement on evidence, it explains, 'when substantial, credible evidence enabled the Office to reach a conclusion with confidence, the report states that the investigation established that certain actions or events occurred.' This evidentiary standard seems similar to the 'preponderance of the evidence,' the more-likely-than-not standard in civil cases and arguably for an impeachment.

By the preponderance of evidence standard, the report contains ample evidence to establish conspiracy and coordination with the Russian government, sometimes through intermediaries, other times through a Russian spy.

Contrast the Mueller report with the Starr report on President Clinton, which framed itself as an impeachment referral, not a prosecution decision, and thus avoided having to reach the more daunting standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It applied a lower standard of 'substantial and credible information' and titled each of its 11 grounds of impeachment in these terms, even when they invoked (or evoked) the criminal conduct of 'lying under oath' and 'obstruction of justice.'”


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/mueller-trump-campaign-russia-conpiracy-.html

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Deb, that was one of the more substantive pieces you have posted, IMO. What a wonderful explanation of how the Mueller report came to its conclusions. The standard for impeachment is also explained so well. You can tell, I hope, I enjoyed reading your post.

Annette

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for posting in this thread @AGBF and @smitcompton.

Do either of you know if Trump can legally block a subpoena for Mueller to testify? Also why did Mueller not subpoena Trump during his investigation. I realize he thought it would delay the report, but shouldn’t Mueller have questioned Trump under oath? It is unbelievable that all norms and rules of law are just dismissed by this president. The only thing worse is half the country is fine with watching what this President is doing to our democracy.

 

[AGBF]

Thank you for posting in this thread @AGBF and @smitcompton.

Do either of you know if Trump can legally block a subpoena for Mueller to testify?

What I understood was that while Mueller remained an employee of the Department of Justice he was subject to the chain of command there. That does not mean that he would have to obey an unlawful order or could not resign if faced with an order he found to be morally untenable, but it would mean that like any employee of an organization he would be supposed to follow the orders of his superiors. That is why many people were pleased when Attorney General William Barr said that he had no objection to Mueller testifying before Congress, because for a short period of time after the release of his report, Mueller would remain an employee of DOJ. Once his time as Special Counsel ends (and it may have), he no longer has an obligation to obey his former superiors at DOJ. He is a private citizen again, just like Don McGahn. Don Megahn, however, might have been subject to claims of exectutive privilege had those claims not been waived (as they were). Robert Mueller is not subject to any claims of privilege.

AGBF

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you very much for the explanation @AGBF

If you have time, please listen to the discussion between Alan Dershowitz and Dan Abrams on the This Week show with George Stephanopoulos .
I think you will find it interesting. It aired on ABC this morning.

 

[Calliecake]

@AGBF, Did you happen to see the following tweet by Rep. Jerry Nadler?

Mueller has written a letter objecting to Barr’s summary of his report because it “did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of the investigation.” I have demanded the letter & Barr must answer to this. Mueller must be allowed to testify.

 

[AGBF]

Barr has disgraced himself. He will not resign because, like Trump, he has no shame. He should resign, however. What he did disgraces his office.

He will not be removed from office because although The House, dominated by Democrats, might impeach him, as they would Trump, the Republican dominated Senate would refuse to remove him from office, as they would Trump. The Republican Party has become as shameless as Trump. I prophesy that they will pay for it, but I may be wrong. That may only be be my wish. I am hoping that the American people are inherently good and that when a party turns shamelessly wrong, that Americans will turn away from it. As I said, that may only be wishful thinking on my part, however.

I would not be averse to seeing a new, moral conservative party arise from the ashes of the Trump party, even if I never voted for one of its members. If its members had a coherent philosophy and eschewed racism and misogyny, I would not mind its social or its fiscal conservatism. It is Trump's crude, hypocritical, racist, and misogynistic ideas, if they can even be called ideas, that I find repellent. He does not care for the people and he incites violence. A conservative party need not do that.

AGBF

 

[Tekate]

Barr is a disgrace to America. Barr and Mueller were supposedly friends, I don't know how any person of integrity - especally another lawyer could find Barr's report to be basically BS.

 

[Matata]

 

[Dancing Fire]

It is time to investigate the investigators..

 

[AGBF]

It is time to investigate the investigators..

This is nothing to celebrate, and I suspect that even you know it, Dancing Fire. William Barr has sided with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin against the entire community of experts on defense analysis who agree that the Russians interfered in our elections. It is a disgrace that he intends to investigate the FBI at the command of a man who sided with Putin in Helsinki. What can you be thinking of to cheer Barr on? You claim to be proud to have become an American citizen.

AGBF

 

[House Cat]

This is nothing to celebrate, and I suspect that even you know it, Dancing Fire. William Barr has sided with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin against the entire community of experts on defense analysis who agree that the Russians interfered in our elections. It is a disgrace that he intends to investigate the FBI at the command of a man who sided with Putin in Helsinki. What can you be thinking of to cheer Barr on? You claim to be proud to have become an American citizen.

AGBF

I believe he is just setting the stage for 2020.

-Discredit the FBI
-Discredit the fact that there was Russian interference
And if he loses
-Claim voter fraud and hold his seat. The senate will like this because they will probably lose too. Voter fraud will work in their favor too.

This is how dictators are made.

 

[Dancing Fire]

This is nothing to celebrate, and I suspect that even you know it, Dancing Fire. William Barr has sided with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin against the entire community of experts on defense analysis who agree that the Russians interfered in our elections. It is a disgrace that he intends to investigate the FBI at the command of a man who sided with Putin in Helsinki. What can you be thinking of to cheer Barr on? You claim to be proud to have become an American citizen.

AGBF

It was a disgrace for using the phony Steele dossier to obtain FISA court orders for spying on your political opponent. Now the tide has turned ...Go Barr!!. Just to name a few ...Brennan, Comey and Strzok should be very nervous by now. Maybe John Durham will come up empty handed, who knows..

 

[AGBF]

It was a disgrace for using the phony Steele dossier to obtain FISA court orders for spying on your political opponent. Now the tide has turned ...Go Barr!!. Just to name a few ...Brennan, Comey and Strzok should be very nervous by now. Maybe John Durham will come up empty handed, who knows..

You know, I do not think the tide has turned, Dancing Fire. I think many people actually now know the truth thanks to Bob Mueller; the FBI; and the other branches of government filled with our professional civil servants. Trump may hold on to the presidency for four more years, but his crimes have now been well documented. At best he will have had a run as a tyrant like Senator Joe MCcarthy. Honorable people will have been persecuted by him, but the truth will come out in the end as it did with Joe McCarthy.

AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

When Holder and Obama refused subpoenas in the "fast and furious" travesty and Holder was found in contempt, when the ATF sold firearms to Mexican drug lords which one used to kill a BP officer and up to 170 others known and possibly 100s more, it was all ok with the media and the dems.

 

[AGBF]

When Holder and Obama refused subpoenas in the "fast and furious" travesty and Holder was found in contempt, when the ATF sold firearms to Mexican drug lords which one used to kill a BP officer and up to 170 others known and possibly 100s more, it was all ok with the media and the dems.

What's your point?

 

[Calliecake]

Trump told People magazine in 1998 that if he ran for President he would do it as a Republican because they are “the dumbest group of voters in the country”. “He could lie and they’d still eat it up”.

 

[Calliecake]

GOP Congressman Justin Amash has read the redacted Mueller Report and tweeted the following today, May 18 at 2:53 PM

Here are my principal conclusions:

1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.
3. Partisanship has eroded our system of checks and balances.
4. Few members of Congress have read the report.

 

[Calliecake]

@Matata, @AGBF , @House Cat , @Tekate and @soxfan

Please check out Tami Burages Twitter account. She has a thread on passages from the Mueller report that she started on May 12th. It’s very interesting.

 

[Matata]

Read it @Calliecake. Thanks for the info but I'm feeling pessimistic about the impact of any info in that report negatively affecting his re-election chances or positively affecting impeachment proceedings. Perhaps someone with sound ethics and morals will attempt to prosecute him when he's no longer in office. Any iota of faith I naively had in our government's ability to stop this demented oligarch evaporated long ago.

 

[Tekate]

@Calliecake read it too. eye opening. I hope she keeps posting AND not surprising, just depessing, it makes me wonder seriously why Mueller won't just release, it's been so very unfair to democrats. sucks.

 

[Tekate]

I sooo understand your thoughts Matata. It's depressing and shocking to me, shocking what my country has become, how so many Americans support this 'nationalism' (which is really just racism).. I visited Mount Carmel, PA for several days back in February, I really saw firsthand what American to this part of America, it was a very depressing, desolate place, I gained a better understanding of why people there at least voted Trump all the way.. I try to keep a good attitude, because it's damn hard.

Read it @Calliecake. Thanks for the info but I'm feeling pessimistic about the impact of any info in that report negatively affecting his re-election chances or positively affecting impeachment proceedings. Perhaps someone with sound ethics and morals will attempt to prosecute him when he's no longer in office. Any iota of faith I naively had in our government's ability to stop this demented oligarch evaporated long ago.

 

[bludiva]

I visited Mount Carmel, PA for several days back in February, I really saw firsthand what American to this part of America, it was a very depressing, desolate place, I gained a better understanding of why people there at least voted Trump all the way..

I do totally get this and the desire to have someone who will either blow things up or try to make things better for the voter in a nonconventional way. I get that. But I don't get why anyone thought Trump would deliver that. He's a frickn snakeoil salesman guided by self-interest and missing a moral compass. The hard thing is to say, certain jobs aren't coming back and you need to vote for the person who will support funding for training in new careers, and building up our infrastructure, and fixing our school systems, and making sure your healthcare isn't tied to your employer. And it's not going to be fair for everyone, it never is, and no one wants to hear that....

 

[Dancing Fire]

Mueller has written a letter objecting to Barr’s summary of his report because it “did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of the investigation.” I have demanded the letter & Barr must answer to this. Mueller must be allowed to testify.

I'd agree.. I'm sure there are a few interesting Qs Republican Representatives would like to ask Mueller.