Ideal-Scope and ASET Scope deserve a far larger audience

[oldminer]

We've been delivering these tools for all USA orders for a long number of years. Every year more people buy these, but it is still a relatively small number of people opting to make their choice with the assistance of such tools. Retailers could offer use of these tools in their stores, but few B&M stores understand how these work or even what they are supposed to do. It is pretty amazing how resistant to change many sellers are. Even as Internet vendors become more aware of these tools, B&M sellers tend to keep on their blinders. Some few have adopted the tools and knowledge, but it is not a large number.

Prosumers on Pricescope tend to stress buying really finely cut triple EX ideal and the limited super ideal cuts, but the vast majority of diamond sales to the general public are made with borderline triple Ex cuts and many more of far lower cut quality. Sometimes the price reflects the lesser cut, but not always. Consumers can shop smarter for medium to better cut quality with ASET and I-S when they wish to save money and while trying to purchase a somewhat larger diamond of compromised cut. I think most buyers of these tools believe they are only of benefit while shopping for top cut stones, but that isn't necessarily true.

Even for average consumers there is value in the knowledge and the understanding found with these little tools. There is a far larger group of average consumers who just don't know that ASET and I-S can help them make their best choices even when they have a mixed desire for a moderately well cut stone, spending less and getting a higher weight diamond. While we can encourage buying the best cut for good reasons, those who need to make compromises deserve support, knowledge and encouragement. Their purchases are very important to them and they can really use our help and expertise.

Do any of you know anyone who has used the I-S or ASET as a way to get a good looking but not super fine cut stone? What's your opinion of using these tools on a broader spectrum of diamond cut quality? I personally have never seen anyone mislead by the results of these tools. Anyone have any suggestions to make these Scopes more understood and more widely used?

 

[Double E]

No doubt the ASET & IS are very useful tools, especially the point they don't only help you find the best cut stone, but better understand / evaluate what you are choosing. This benefits those who spent time and effort to research and more importantly research in a correct and knowledgeable direction (e.g. found a forum like this, which I think the best part of it is that we got interaction here). Sadly, most diamond consumers start by approaching general B&M stores in which their staff / sales person are educated incompletely and thus the consumers with even less related knowledge are put further apart from what they should be informed & educated. As a result, they had no idea what ASET & IS are, and they are still having no idea what they are now, and this leads to not fully informed decision on purchase, overpaid choice, etc. In person, I tried to talk to my friends when anyone of them are close to engage and start to hunt for a stone, but it's still not easy~

 

[Athena10X]

Do any of you know anyone who has used the I-S or ASET as a way to get a good looking but not super fine cut stone? What's your opinion of using these tools on a broader spectrum of diamond cut quality? I personally have never seen anyone mislead by the results of these tools. Anyone have any suggestions to make these Scopes more understood and more widely used?

This is my personal experience from perusing B&M stores. Many carry various lines, ranging from non-branded to branded, as well as cut quality ranging from good to excellent/ideal, non-certified to certified (basically, the whole gamut). Most stores I visited carried GIA graded stones. I think Kay carries GSI graded, not to be confused with GIA. There were a handful of EGL and IGI as well. Surprisingly, some HOF diamonds came with an AGS platinum grading with ASET image.

Most B&M do not publicly list their inventory or a way to filter by specs, which makes the shopping experience more daunting. Most stores also have H&A viewers for those customers who are interested in branded H&A stones. Yet, only 2 jewelers out of more than a dozen or so were familiar with the ASET, yet none carried a scope, which is why I bought my own set. Every time that I’ve brought my tools out, the salesperson would show interest. I’d educate them on how to use the ASET and I-S. They’d look through the viewers with amazement. However, such curiosity would typically be short-lived because they ultimately fell back upon their limited training to push a sale.

I think the only way industry standards will change is through an informed prosumer. If more people visited B&M with these tools in-hand, retailers will notice and some may even start offering their own scopes for convenience. And if consumers start prioritizing cut quality, stores would be smart to respond to such demand. Such upward pressure would then trickle up to cutting houses and potentially drive for greater supply of ideal cut stones.

Yet our average consumer is probably a first-time buyer and is most likely shopping for an e-ring. Some are referred to specific jewelers by family and/or friends, some go to stores marketed on tv or radio, and others go to boutique jewelers with excellent online reviews and testimonials or who offer a personalized/luxury experience.

No matter the type of retailer, as soon as you step into a store, you are bombarded with the 4Cs. Yet, cut is the least explained and is limited to overall score of Excellent, Ver Good, and Goid. Few delve into angles and proportions besides preferred table and depth ranges. If you are uncertain about tint, they’d happily place stones with various colors side by side for comparison. Same with size. Clarity can be seen with a loupe. Yet, cut above all, is the hardest to differentiate under the deceiving store lighting, which is how reps are able to push very good cuts as equally comparable to excellent and because very good is more affordably priced, many are baited.

Overhearing conversations by other shoppers, many put faith into their sales rep or jeweler to help them pick the best bang for their buck. The only push-back I’ve heard typically revolves around size, color, clarity and/or price. Rarely, do discussions pertain to comparing cut. Yet, we know that majority are misled and end up over-spending on a mediocre diamond. Why? Because most consumers do very minimal outside research and a simple google search predominantly re-emphasizes the 4Cs. Only with thorough and exhaustive research will a consumer become informed, but this requires dedication and time. Funny enough, it seems that more people research vehicles prior to an auto purchase and are less trusting of auto sales reps.

There’s also the stigma of making a big $$$ purchase online vs in person. Most opt for the later for assurance that they’re getting what they’re paying for. Similarly, few people buy cars online sight unseen. Typically, there’s still a test drive involved. Of course, there are always exceptions, but I’m certain these are folks who know what they’re doing and have been doing it for a while.

Ultimately, I think the consumer would need to be re-educated, followed by the trade to see any shift in industry standards. Too many driving forces, not to mention grading companies adjusting their scoring methods. But, to answer your question after this long-winded response, if the I-S or ASET became freely available for the price of shipping costs and was well-marketed, more people may be inclined to use.

 

[jp201845]

Since GIA has a broad range of triple excellent diamonds the first tool that is helpful as an elimination tool is the proportion chart numbers within the Ideal range that is posted on this forum frequently. When you find a diamond with ideal numbers plug those numbers in the HCA to be sure the angles work and to get a score less than 2. Finally the Idealscope and Aset viewer is used last in my opinion to look for optical symmetry and cut precision ( Hearts & Arrows)

I don't think the industry will change anytime soon with the GIA grading so broad ...and this is a result of uneducated consumers paying a premium for poorly cut stones and cutters reaching the magic carat weights for higher profits.

This is why tools such as the ideal chart proportion numbers, HCA, Idealscope and Aset viewer are so effective. Not only one but all 3 together.

My 2 cents

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks Dave and all.
There is another thread running about how bad dirty fancy shapes look. Leaky stones need more cleaning than stones with great ideal-scopes and ASETs.

 

[molecule]

We've been delivering these tools for all USA orders for a long number of years. Every year more people buy these, but it is still a relatively small number of people opting to make their choice with the assistance of such tools. Retailers could offer use of these tools in their stores, but few B&M stores understand how these work or even what they are supposed to do. It is pretty amazing how resistant to change many sellers are. Even as Internet vendors become more aware of these tools, B&M sellers tend to keep on their blinders. Some few have adopted the tools and knowledge, but it is not a large number.

Prosumers on Pricescope tend to stress buying really finely cut triple EX ideal and the limited super ideal cuts, but the vast majority of diamond sales to the general public are made with borderline triple Ex cuts and many more of far lower cut quality. Sometimes the price reflects the lesser cut, but not always. Consumers can shop smarter for medium to better cut quality with ASET and I-S when they wish to save money and while trying to purchase a somewhat larger diamond of compromised cut. I think most buyers of these tools believe they are only of benefit while shopping for top cut stones, but that isn't necessarily true.

Even for average consumers there is value in the knowledge and the understanding found with these little tools. There is a far larger group of average consumers who just don't know that ASET and I-S can help them make their best choices even when they have a mixed desire for a moderately well cut stone, spending less and getting a higher weight diamond. While we can encourage buying the best cut for good reasons, those who need to make compromises deserve support, knowledge and encouragement. Their purchases are very important to them and they can really use our help and expertise.

Do any of you know anyone who has used the I-S or ASET as a way to get a good looking but not super fine cut stone? What's your opinion of using these tools on a broader spectrum of diamond cut quality? I personally have never seen anyone mislead by the results of these tools. Anyone have any suggestions to make these Scopes more understood and more widely used?

This post reads like a blatant violation of the forum policies.
"Do not mention your products or services unless requested in the thread by a consumer."

Just because the post is about a tool does not make the post less self-promotion than if a diamond vendor had posted it.

 

[oldminer]

Well, I'm not so sure I'd agree that this posting is a "blatant violation", but I apologize if it does violate anything. My thinking is that many consumers are missing the value of such tools in the false belief they are only good for top quality stone selection. We think these tools can be used for many more selections where budget constraints modify shopping choices. Yes, I suppose it is a commercial thought, but it is for the benefit of the consumer and the diamond business. The selling and delivery of these is a hobby level enterprise.

Anyway, if management agrees that this violates policy, I can live with their decision. Sorry it tweaked anyone's sensitivities.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This post reads like a blatant violation of the forum policies.
"Do not mention your products or services unless requested in the thread by a consumer."

Just because the post is about a tool does not make the post less self-promotion than if a diamond vendor had posted it.

Dave has been doing this work since many of you were born. And for totally free.
OK, he is promoting products. Products many of which I make in small volumes and supply to him (and AGS).
Could he live off the sales - even if they were ten-fold - not a hope in Hell.

We do this because we believe that consumers need help and the trade needs to provide much better looking diamonds.

 

[psadmin]

Although the line does violate some aspect of the forum policy, I know it was not the goal or spirit of its intent.

The tools are important for helping consumer and this is a good discussion.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yup, I have these 2 toys!

 

[flyingpig]

I just make one for myself. I hope I am not violating any patent law.

 

[WinkHPD]

David,

I agree with much of what you say, but I fear that you are missing some key points in your comments.

(For those who do not know this, David and I have been friends for many years and I buy all of the hand held ASET Scopes and Ideal-Scopes that I give away with every diamond sale from David. I believe very strongly that they are excellent tools!)

I want to go through specific points in your post that I am in some degree of disagreement with.

• Consumers can shop smarter for medium to better cut quality with ASET and Ideal-Scope when they wish to save money and while trying to purchase a somewhat larger diamond of comprised cut.

Are you not saying that if you keep carat weight, color and clarity the same, that there is a premium for better cut diamonds? If so, I partially agree, but that is faulty reasoning. The weight of the diamond has no meaning. For example, if a diamond has been swindle cut to weigh over a carat so that it both measures a smaller diameter and looks worse than a properly cut ninety point diamond, does the weight have any meaning at all when the ugly duckling costs much more than the beautiful diamond that sells for much less? Are you really going to tell me that the premium for a well cut ninety pointer makes an excuse for selling a more expensive yet poorly cut one carat diamond?

Wouldn’t we be better off explaining why the so-called premium is actually a better value? Here is a picture of an eighty pointer that is actually slightly smaller than the one carat diamond, yet looks larger and sparkles like the band and costs a fraction of the price of the poorly cut one carat diamond. How is this weight at all meaningful?

• Even when they have a mixed desire for a moderately well cut stone, spending less and getting a higher weight diamond.

This is where we really need to educate more and accept a perhaps mistaken goal less. Personally, I fully appreciate the value of both the ASET and Ideal-Scope. They are great tools. Shouldn’t we use them to show the folly of getting a poorly cut stone just because it weighs more, when a much less expensive diamond looks as big and is prettier? If we properly educate our seekers with truthful information, many of them will enjoy a better cut, lower weight diamond better. If this is true, and in my personal experience, it is, then accepting their desire as a given is a major disservice.

• While we can encourage buying the best cut for good reasons, those who need to make compromises deserve support, knowledge and encouragement.

Needing to make compromises is true, but it is important for these compromises to be based on full education. The most important education here is that consumers are taught not to take carat weight as a constant.

• I personally have never seen anyone mislead by the results of these tools.

As far as being mislead by the results of these tools, I wonder. Both mainly assess brightness. Whatever can be deducted on the level of fire and scintillation is, at best, indirect. It is no surprise that diamonds with almost equal scope images are judged consistently different in direct live comparisons, ESPECIALLY in clear differences of fire and scintillation.

Yes, I agree that Ideal-Scope and ASET should be used more and awareness of them should dramatically increase. However, at the same time the use of the tools needs to be accompanied with good awareness of their limitations as well as their strengths, and by all means an understanding that actual carat weight is of very little importance to the beauty of the diamond, especially if it was obtained by less than stellar cutting.

Wink

 

[EncikG]

Wouldn’t we be better off explaining why the so-called premium is actually a better value?

Thanks for your view Winks and I totally agree that the tools help to discern a poor cut vs a well cut diamond but when we get to well cut diamonds, is it really better value or are we just buying a mind clean paper premium?

In the pict below, there are only 2 ASETs, one of a Whiteflash ACA and the other being a premium select. Yes, granted that I did pick the better premium select out, could we discern which is which? Even if we did, does that translate to marked brightness, scintillating differences in real life? If so, then why are we paying the premium for an ACA?

 

[oldminer]

I appreciate the comments. Wink comes at the problem from his special viewpoint of superior cut diamonds and I arrived here after decades of selling old cut diamonds, weird shaped ones, oddities and not so well cut ones along with the occasional fine cut stone. Being a dealer in estate jewelry and gems is very different than being a fine cut diamond specialist.

I do understand how weight issues can mislead folks into buying with incorrect priorities, but those priorities are long standing and not well explained in general. Pricescope has gone a long way in changing that mentality and I believe I have done my small part in this too. I am a believer in the value of finely cut diamonds. Now, if the public, the masses of those who never visit Pricescope also understood, then we'd really be getting somewhere. Getting tools to the mass market where virtually no diamonds of fine cut are being sold, that would be a real event of importance. Just being able to choose the brightest diamond of three "good" cut diamonds would be an accomplishment for the mass market folks.

Although most ideal-Scope and ASET images or tools service the elite buyer today, my dream is to have many more people get something that will give them immediate discernment of the most highly important diamond characteristic. It is my labor of love for consumers, the trade and the business that I grew up in. I continue to also love weird and old cut diamonds, strange inclusions, and oddities, too.

 

[OoohShiny]

Wouldn’t we be better off explaining why the so-called premium is actually a better value? Here is a picture of an eighty pointer that is actually slightly smaller than the one carat diamond, yet looks larger and sparkles like the band and costs a fraction of the price of the poorly cut one carat diamond. How is this weight at all meaningful?

I think the work that Garry is doing WRT adding a 'look like' or 'spreads like' aspect to the HCA tool could potentially be very useful in terms of helping consumers understand their options and how higher weight != bigger size.

It will be interesting to see if there is any anecdotal evidence fed back on how a purchaser used the tool to pick stones that were cut well, or to validate a comparison between two stones - if purchasers' eyes match the tool (which I expect they will, given the right (non-magic) lighting) then that will be good news

Thanks for your view Winks and I totally agree that the tools help to discern a poor cut vs a well cut diamond but when we get to well cut diamonds, is it really better value or are we just buying a mind clean paper premium?

In the pict below, there are only 2 ASETs, one of a Whiteflash ACA and the other being a premium select. Yes, granted that I did pick the better premium select out, could we discern which is which? Even if we did, does that translate to marked brightness, scintillating differences in real life? If so, then why are we paying the premium for an ACA?

I think you are asking the same question as has been asked many times before - are SuperIdeals worth the premium / can 'normal people' detect the difference between a SuperIdeal and a great GIA XXX?

Some have said yes, some have said no, some have discovered their view through viewing SuperIdeal options side-by-side with 'standard' options, some say 'taste' for discerning a SuperIdeal from a 'standard' cut comes through exposure in a variety of lighting environments over time.

For some people it is also a 'peace of mind' thing - I'm not confident with rounds (especially when in a B&M shop and presented with The Hard Sell and magic lighting) so buying a SuperIdeal removed the 'what if...' questions.


WRT why more vendors don't utilise IS and ASETscope, I personally think a lot boils down to ignorance, some boils down to resistance ('the internet is full of charlatans and I'm an expert () of X years in my field, so why do I need gimmicky gadgets?') and much boils down to the bottom line - after all, if one could sell crap stones bought wholesale for cheap, at the same price as decent stones bought wholesale for more money, why would one want to destroy one's profit margin on each stone if consumers are naïve enough to not know better?

 

[denverappraiser]

There’s an additional advantage of these things that isn’t mentioned above. When you go to a store to look at diamonds and you happen to have an Idealscope or ASET in your purse, it tells you something about the diamonds, but it also tells them something about YOU. It changes the whole direction of the sales presentation, and largely for the better.

 

[OoohShiny]

There’s an additional advantage of these things that isn’t mentioned above. When you go to a store to look at diamonds and you happen to have an Idealscope or ASET in your purse, it tells you something about the diamonds, but it also tells them something about YOU. It changes the whole direction of the sales presentation, and largely for the better.

I am going to be contrary and perhaps reflect my own personal lack of confidence and paranoia issues but I have always thought/felt that bringing out an IS or ASETscope is likely to have 'know-it-all' vendors think to themselves "Oh, here we go, another smart-arse off the internet who thinks s/he has a clue" lol, especially here in the UK!

 

[denverappraiser]

Oh, it's definitely a sign of an Internet-educated customer, and that includes a lot of smart-arse know-it-all's, some who know things that just aren't so, but it makes the conversation one about cut quality, even if they don't like reflector technology. What do they prefer? It can get the sale immediately transferred to a specialist in the store who is familiar with the sorts of questions you're likely to be asking. It also makes it clear, right up front, who the competition is. That saves some dancing when it comes time to talk about prices.

By the way, if you do this, make sure to tell them up front what you're doing and let them look at your tool if they want. Jewelers have some security issues and customers who bring in their own tools, especially if the jeweler doesn't recognize it, can be a red flag. If they have one, use theirs. (also, stores that have them usually have the desktop type models that are a lot easier to use)

 

[OoohShiny]

Oh, it's definitely a sign of an Internet-educated customer, and that includes a lot of smart-arse know-it-all's, some who know things that just aren't so, but it makes the conversation one about cut quality, even if they don't like reflector technology. What do they prefer? It can get the sale immediately transferred to a specialist in the store who is familiar with the sorts of questions you're likely to be asking. It also makes it clear, right up front, who the competition is. That saves some dancing when it comes time to talk about prices.

By the way, if you do this, make sure to tell them up front what you're doing and let them look at your tool if they want. Jewelers have some security issues and customers who bring in their own tools, especially if the jeweler doesn't recognize it, can be a red flag. If they have one, use theirs. (also, stores that have them usually have the desktop type models that are a lot easier to use)

I have often wondered if jewellery stores would bar David Blaine and Dynamo from their premises before they've even entered...

 

[gm89uk]

Do any of you know anyone who has used the I-S or ASET as a way to get a good looking but not super fine cut stone? What's your opinion of using these tools on a broader spectrum of diamond cut quality? I personally have never seen anyone mislead by the results of these tools. Anyone have any suggestions to make these Scopes more understood and more widely used?

I did, very pleased with result, on careful comparison with a HoF stone. (1.30 G SI2)


(Top is ASET scope, bottom one is home made ..I think @flyingpig)
I think it's a very safe way to get a great stone. Recent discussions with @Serg has stones at the top of his performance metric that would have failed the HCA/ASET/IS test (good discussion with reasons to why this may be https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/adding-symmetry-to-hca-scores.246504/). However I still think, the safest way to get a balanced performer is any good old reflector image.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great discussion! Of course, those who've been here know I have a different view- don't worry, I promise to be a good boy
I am also friends with and have great respect for David Atlas. But I believe it's possible to be respectful and offer a different viewpoint.
I have a lot of experience with ASET- both hand held, as well as "the real thing". While Dibox ASET images do provide consistent, meaningful data to shoppers looking for "Super Ideal" diamonds. In my opinion, using the hand held ASET will not provide meaningful data to a consumer. The reason is that what we're talking about with a Super Ideal is so subtle that you really need an accurate ASET to be useful. It's just not easy to use the hand held version.
There's a lot to be said about consumer education- this forum has educated countless consumers, to their benefit. Without a doubt, many retail jewelry sellers have no idea about things discussed in detail here on a daily basis. They're not going know what a hand held ASET is. Unfortunately for them, they're going to loose the opportunity for a sale due to lack of education.
And while there are surely still "wonky" stones out there, the percentage of RBC's that are "badly cut" stones has gone down a lot over the past 15 years. This benefits consumers who don't read this forum.
I could be wrong- but it seems to me that this is really the only place where ASET/IS is widely discussed online. None of the "big boys" websites offer ASET unless requested. That too limits the amount of folks who want a hand held model
I'm still very "old school"- I want to look at a diamond with my eyes, and a loupe to decide if I like the way it's cut.
In a way, ASET and IS technology take the human element out of what ( I believe) is a very human desire for beauty. That's one reason I resisted the technology for so long...but as they say, if you can't beat them, buy a DIBox

A discussion of Super Ideal versus well cut is a different one, but since it's been brought up, below is a photo of a stone with the "recommended" proportions versus a 60/60 ( from a thread many years back- I don't have the specifics at hand)
They both have the same spread, yet the 60/60 looks larger..... Not coincidentally, the 60/60 would get knocked here due to it's ASET/IS
Part of the result of improved cutting is that most RBC diamonds are simply cut deeper nowadays. It's nearly impossible to find 60/60 stones at this point in time- which I believe is a disadvantage to consumers...well cut 60/60's have better spread than Ideal Cut stones.

 

[flyingpig]

I did, very pleased with result, on careful comparison with a HoF stone. (1.30 G SI2)


(Top is ASET scope, bottom one is home made ..I think @flyingpig)
I think it's a very safe way to get a great stone. Recent discussions with @Serg has stones at the top of his performance metric that would have failed the HCA/ASET/IS test (good discussion with reasons to why this may be https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/adding-symmetry-to-hca-scores.246504/). However I still think, the safest way to get a balanced performer is any good old reflector image.

The homemade scope is well calibrated
I like the paper towel idea.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I did, very pleased with result, on careful comparison with a HoF stone. (1.30 G SI2)


(Top is ASET scope, bottom one is home made ..I think @flyingpig)
I think it's a very safe way to get a great stone. Recent discussions with @Serg has stones at the top of his performance metric that would have failed the HCA/ASET/IS test (good discussion with reasons to why this may be https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/adding-symmetry-to-hca-scores.246504/). However I still think, the safest way to get a balanced performer is any good old reflector image.

WOW!! Mucho respect my friend!! I could never get pics like that with the hand held!!

 

[gm89uk]

The homemade scope is well calibrated
I like the paper towel idea.

I did have to use lens with the handheld to get a decent picture though.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Most of the longtime vendors here are very sensitive to the need to obey forum rules that are designed to ensure pricescope remains a healthy community where newbies can come to get feedback and peer review from knowledgeable enthusiasts, along with occasional input from trade experts who fill in gaps with technical information or knowledge gained from many years of experience.

Dave Atlas in particular has shared a wealth of knowledge most generously for many years on this forum. While technically one could say he is violating a rule by recommending products he sells, the intent is clearly to stimulate discussion about specialized understanding about diamond performance that would benefit a huge swath of the consumer market. I believe that is the spirit in which he started this topic, and I think it is important to consider that context. I am certain that most forum members who have been around long enough to know the contributions Dave has made to pricescope also fully understand that his post was meant to be educational, not promotional.

As to the point about folks carrying tools into a jewelry shop to help analyze their potential purchases, I think that is a good trend that will help those consumers and also help those businesses who are wise enough to keep an open mind to newer ways that consumers are shopping, and who are willing to continue their own diamond education. I do agree that the respectful way to do so is to ask permission upfront, just as you would if you wanted to take a photo.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thanks for your view Winks and I totally agree that the tools help to discern a poor cut vs a well cut diamond but when we get to well cut diamonds, is it really better value or are we just buying a mind clean paper premium?

In the pict below, there are only 2 ASETs, one of a Whiteflash ACA and the other being a premium select. Yes, granted that I did pick the better premium select out, could we discern which is which? Even if we did, does that translate to marked brightness, scintillating differences in real life? If so, then why are we paying the premium for an ACA?

@EncikG,
Our Premium Select category is specific to GIA diamonds. One of the only hard and fast rules for inclusion in our inventory is that they have a good level of optical precision as evidenced by distinct (if not perfect) hearts and arrows. The A CUT ABOVE brand requires an AGS Platinum Ideal cert as a baseline, with an extensive list of additional requirements.

But there is no law that says a PS can't have performance comparable some ES or even ACA diamonds. We provide all the diagnostics so a shopper can decide for themselves. The PS category is intended for shoppers that are more comfortable with a GIA report, but also want a top performing Triple Ex.

 

[EncikG]

David talks about old cut stones whereas Winks talks about superior cuts. But isn’t the discussion about whether these tools can help us pick out a better stone while shopping irl. After all, a well cut stone backed by scope images, is a well cut stone

@Texas Leaguer if I’m not wrong, you made the comment in past post that pple who shop over the internet pick an ACA but those who walk-in might end up with a Premium or ES selection. Perhaps there are some budget constraints or perhaps they could not equate the price premium with what they saw optically.

No doubt AGS certs are more cut focused but I do not feel that it’s just the cert. If you walked into a B&M store whereby either you or the jeweller had a ASET and showed you the following scope images, would you choose not to buy it just because it had a GIA cert?

 

[Karl_K]

ASET does not have the resolution to separate well cut diamonds.
Under each of those red/green/blue ares are hundreds to thousands of virtual facets that ASET lumps together.

The biggest reason to get an ASET and IS scope and a h&a scope is they are cheap fun to play around with!
A loupe is the first thing someone should buy however it has many more uses than the scopes when it comes to completed jewelry.
If nothing else they are great for removal of splinters when not checking your setting and diamonds/gems!

 

[WinkHPD]

Thank you, all, for the thoughtful comments. I carved out some quiet time to give David’s thread the time it deserves.

Thanks for your view Winks and I totally agree that the tools help to discern a poor cut vs a well cut diamond but when we get to well cut diamonds, is it really better value or are we just buying a mind clean paper premium?

In the pict below, there are only 2 ASETs, one of a Whiteflash ACA and the other being a premium select. Yes, granted that I did pick the better premium select out, could we discern which is which? Even if we did, does that translate to marked brightness, scintillating differences in real life? If so, then why are we paying the premium for an ACA?

We may be of differing opinions about what these images can tell us. That’s not uncommon though. In my time doing this I have met jewelers who will look you right in the eye while saying all GIA Excellent diamonds are equal and any further discussion is just “marketing schtick.” Same with AGS Ideal. I respect their right to develop such opinions but cannot agree. More importantly, I can never un-see what I have seen. Therefore, I hope we can discuss differing opinions with mutual respect.

In my experience these reflector-tools are useful for digging up details but not for neatly slicing bread. What I mean is this. You can definitely use HCA from your couch to find diamonds worthy of more consideration. You can use ASET from your couch to ID those with reliably high brightness, high degrees of patterning and therefore greatest promise. But you are still sitting on your couch. The amount of visible fire and contrast-intensity depend on size, distribution and integrity of a diamond’s compound mirrors in their full depth and detail. Those things are also light-source dependent, with different illumination scenarios bringing different appearances. Only in-person, through a range of lighting, can detailed differences be seen. The visual palate and especially the experience of any individual viewer also comes into play (which brings me back to the notion some have that GIA EX are all equal) but that is probably for another conversation.

I appreciate the comments. Wink comes at the problem from his special viewpoint of superior cut diamonds and I arrived here after decades of selling old cut diamonds, weird shaped ones, oddities and not so well cut ones along with the occasional fine cut stone. Being a dealer in estate jewelry and gems is very different than being a fine cut diamond specialist.

I do understand how weight issues can mislead folks into buying with incorrect priorities, but those priorities are long standing and not well explained in general. Pricescope has gone a long way in changing that mentality and I believe I have done my small part in this too. I am a believer in the value of finely cut diamonds. Now, if the public, the masses of those who never visit Pricescope also understood, then we'd really be getting somewhere. Getting tools to the mass market where virtually no diamonds of fine cut are being sold, that would be a real event of importance. Just being able to choose the brightest diamond of three "good" cut diamonds would be an accomplishment for the mass market folks.

Although most ideal-Scope and ASET images or tools service the elite buyer today, my dream is to have many more people get something that will give them immediate discernment of the most highly important diamond characteristic. It is my labor of love for consumers, the trade and the business that I grew up in. I continue to also love weird and old cut diamonds, strange inclusions, and oddities, too.

Thank you David. But I should tell you I started in colored gemstones and walked through every oddity you can imagine and my viewpoint has not really changed. I just finally found a crafter of diamonds who matches my lifelong feeling for how every diamond should be treated. Mother Nature cooked the world’s diamonds for billions of years. They were mined in crazy, remote places at enormous effort and expense. They already cost too much to begin with. The least I believe we should do is respect her by beautifying her gifts to the best of our ability. That goes for every diamond, whether a beautiful antique cut, modern cushion, square or any other shape. These are nature’s oldest and most amazing perfectly formed crystal “children.” We should respect them enough NOT to cheat buyers by adding extra weight and profits for the industry at the expense of beauty.

That is why I don’t believe there is a “premium” for careful cutting. The cost basis is higher, but for a defensible reason. What I do see are discounts for deviations from optimum cutting, but those discounts are not always in the buyer’s best interest, and are often not disclosed. Caveat emptor. And yes. You are correct. If only the industry had treated Garry’s ideal-scope as we do a gemological microscope. Or a carat scale. Or a color master stone. Can you imagine? If only we had guarded what we do to the diamond as rigorously as we critique Mother Nature in terms of the invented DEF scale or FL-VVS clarity scale. If only we would have made ideal-scope or ASET a standard gemological instrument. Instead it’s something you have to learn about in some internet space from a bunch of diamond obsessed weirdos like me and you (with all respect!)

I think the work that Garry is doing WRT adding a 'look like' or 'spreads like' aspect to the HCA tool could potentially be very useful in terms of helping consumers understand their options and how higher weight != bigger size. It will be interesting to see if there is any anecdotal evidence fed back on how a purchaser used the tool to pick stones that were cut well, or to validate a comparison between two stones - if purchasers' eyes match the tool (which I expect they will, given the right (non-magic) lighting) then that will be good news

I think you are asking the same question as has been asked many times before - are SuperIdeals worth the premium / can 'normal people' detect the difference between a SuperIdeal and a great GIA XXX? Some have said yes, some have said no, some have discovered their view through viewing SuperIdeal options side-by-side with 'standard' options, some say 'taste' for discerning a SuperIdeal from a 'standard' cut comes through exposure in a variety of lighting environments over time. For some people it is also a 'peace of mind' thing - I'm not confident with rounds (especially when in a B&M shop and presented with The Hard Sell and magic lighting) so buying a SuperIdeal removed the 'what if...' questions.

WRT why more vendors don't utilise IS and ASETscope, I personally think a lot boils down to ignorance, some boils down to resistance ('the internet is full of charlatans and I'm an expert () of X years in my field, so why do I need gimmicky gadgets?') and much boils down to the bottom line - after all, if one could sell crap stones bought wholesale for cheap, at the same price as decent stones bought wholesale for more money, why would one want to destroy one's profit margin on each stone if consumers are naïve enough to not know better?

@OoohShiny, I can cut to the chase here because I am one of those (insert expletive) jewelers in my town who’s been around long enough to be known for “poisoning” local diamond shoppers with technical knowledge and a desire to use cut-quality-viewers. All of this from back in the Firescope days - shout out to everyone who knows what I speak of. And it continues with current technology. BUT even my educated competition will vouch that I never put any viewer ahead of looking at the actual diamond through many lighting conditions. At least all of those poor, poor, victimized jewelers in my town will give me credit for that. Well, to my face they will, haha.

If you do not mind one more point @OoohShiny, I must say that (for me) the word “Superideal” is just like saying “Ideal” or even “Excellent.” It’s a nice term, and useful here, but there is still room within that term for diversity. As EncikG correctly pointed out, seeing a pair of ASETs which are nice and bright may come with the assumption of only one look or identity. But if you look at the range of factories around the world that produce high-ideal diamonds with good patterns, aka Superideals, you will find a charming range of visual differences in real life. If you have a local HOF dealer you can even tease out differences inside their brand by putting a few of their diamonds together. And you will absolutely see big differences when comparing a HOF to an Eightstar diamond, if you can find someone still carrying them.

There’s an additional advantage of these things that isn’t mentioned above. When you go to a store to look at diamonds and you happen to have an Idealscope or ASET in your purse, it tells you something about the diamonds, but it also tells them something about YOU. It changes the whole direction of the sales presentation, and largely for the better.

Have I told you lately that I love you Neil? Will you please open a store and start selling diamonds? This is exactly the attitude we need to revive brick and mortar jewelry stores. I keep hearing horror stories instead. Brooming someone from your store because they shared Blue Nile diamonds on their phone while talking to you is NOT the answer. Asking them to SHARE what they found and discussing pros and cons factually is the answer. Consumer knowledge, self-teaching and internet-learning are here to stay. Consumers are NOT becoming less educated. Respect them, and respect what others do well. If you do this the smartest consumers will recognize that and reward you with their time and attention, which is everything you hoped for in the first place.

Oh, and @OoohShiny, if you ever cross the pond I’ll joyfully send you to the “reserved for smart-arses” section in my store. I’m the jeweler, waiter, bartender and chef for that group!

Wink

 

[gm89uk]

I am going to be contrary and perhaps reflect my own personal lack of confidence and paranoia issues but I have always thought/felt that bringing out an IS or ASETscope is likely to have 'know-it-all' vendors think to themselves "Oh, here we go, another smart-arse off the internet who thinks s/he has a clue" lol, especially here in the UK!

The last time I pulled out an ASET score in the UK I was told, "sparkle is a very simple formula, D sparkles with SI2, with H you need vs1"