IGI Certification

[Sakuramickey]

Dear experts,

I just placed an order for customized diamond bangle with 25pieces of 0.15ct each E-F VS1. My jeweler informed me that I will only get IGI certificate cause the size of the diamonds are small and GIA won’t be able to provide one.

I only purchased diamonds with GIA certificates since I started buying diamonds however those were larger than 0.15ct. The smallest was 0.25ct

I just wanted to hear what you experts have to say about this.

Thank you!

 

[Matilda]

Hi so I am not an expert. However from my knowledge GIA only grades diamonds that are 0.15ct AND above, and loose diamonds, unmounted. It could be that the diamonds are a smidge under 0.15cts, that actually 0.15ct is an average meaning some will be smaller than 0.15. So the jeweller does not want to risk paying for grading for the 25 diamonds only for them to be returned.
Are the diamonds already mounted? If so it that could be another reason to not send it to GIA.

IGI grades mounted diamonds and diamonds of any size, no limit. So I can see why IGI would be a good choice here.

Honestly it is probably a cost issue; cost of sending 25 small diamonds for GIA reports may be more expensive than what your jeweller (not you) purchased them for.

 

[Sakuramickey]

Hi so I am not an expert. However from my knowledge GIA only grades diamonds that are 0.15ct AND above, and loose diamonds, unmounted. It could be that the diamonds are a smidge under 0.15cts, that actually 0.15ct is an average meaning some will be smaller than 0.15. So the jeweller does not want to risk paying for grading for the 25 diamonds only for them to be returned.
Are the diamonds already mounted? If so it that could be another reason to not send it to GIA.

IGI grades mounted diamonds and diamonds of any size, no limit. So I can see why IGI would be a good choice here.

Honestly it is probably a cost issue; cost of sending 25 small diamonds for GIA reports may be more expensive than what your jeweller (not you) purchased them for.

Thank you so much for the reply! The diamonds are purchased by The jeweler and then mounted to a bangle. I think they are buying from HK.

My concern is ‘ is IGI certification same as GIA’? I requested for E-F VS1. Should I be worried?

 

[sledge]

IGI is inferior to GIA because of their reputation to provide inaccurate grading. IGI may say F VS1 but frequently GIA would grade the same stone to lower color and/or clarity.

Many mall stores with lesser quality stones send them to IGI so they get better reports and can sell for more money.

I'm of the opinion that well cut melee stones are critical to beauty; however, they don't need to be individually certified. GIA tends to agree.

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/melee-diamonds-tiny-diamonds-big-impact/

If I were in your shoes and confirming the color and clarity was of vast importance I'd be more inclined to work with a trusted jeweler and reach an agreement where uncertified or IGI stones were acceptable but the final piece would undergo independent appraisal at a mutually agreeable appraiser. If the piece was verified as using quality stones you desire, then great. If not, you have an option to buy at a discounted rate or to reject the piece entirely.

 

[Matilda]

As GIA doesn't grade diamonds under 0.15ct I second @sledge's recommendation of separate appraiser. Usually IGI diamonds are at east 10% cheaper than ones with GIA reports.



Another idea would be to send the final bangle to AGS to grade it, as this lab which is superior to IGI DOES grade jewellery.

https://www.americangemsociety.org/page/diamondtrademounte

 

[sledge]

Hey @Matilda, where are you getting the data on the 10% difference from? Not disputing, just I've never done an analysis and was curious your source.

Whatever the percentage, the more worrisome part is the not being able to trust the cert and the dollars you may lose as a result of the grading variances.

For example (all fictitious data used to prove my point):

• 1ct F VS1 GIA graded = $7,500 per carat
• 1ct G SI1 GIA graded = $5,800 per carat
• 1ct F VS1 IGI graded = $7,500 carat - 10% discount (or $750) = $6,750

If you didn't know better, it would seem like a good deal getting an IGI graded F VS1 stone for $6,750 as opposed to $7,500 for a GIA graded stone of the same characteristics. After all, under jeweler lighting they both look great. Pocket the cash and go home.

Then you go home, find Pricescope and discover IGI isn't reliable. You decide to spend the time and money to have your stone re-graded. It comes back from GIA as G SI1. You look at the jeweler's website where you bought your IGI stone and see a 1ct G SI1 for $5,800. You nearly pop a blood vessel because you see a 1 carat G SI1 is selling $950 cheaper than what you paid. Not to mention the $200-300 you spent getting the stone graded to GIA standards. Obviously the 10% savings wasn't a savings at all.

Jumping back to our real world here, I'm not advocating that an IGI stone can't be gorgeous and acceptable. The problem I have is that because the certification is untrustworthy I don't know how to accurately gauge the price. This isn't to say that GIA is the holy grail and perfect. They aren't.

But at the end of the day, the lab reports we get are supposed to give us confidence on the properties of the diamond we are buying. When they fail to do that accurately, it gives us no confidence or assurance the price we are paying for that stone is truly good or not.

 

[Matilda]

I read it on the internet plus I have noticed a price difference when looking up diamonds.

To clarify I agree they are not long term cheaper I meant on face up value, which you end up having overpaid in the end as the grades would be lower on GIA/AGS @sledge



https://www.diamondscreener.com/edu...ification-labs-gia-vs-igi-grading-and-prices/
figure 3, AND TABLE 4

https://beyond4cs.com/grading/difference-between-gia-ags-egl-igi/labs-to-avoid/

https://www.diamonds.pro/education/igi/
they calculate 18.77% more expensive is GIA.

I am NOT saying I believe these numbers exactly especially as they vary anyways, but I do believe there is enough to suggest that there is a price difference at first...though lost later as you said

 

[Sakuramickey]

IGI is inferior to GIA because of their reputation to provide inaccurate grading. IGI may say F VS1 but frequently GIA would grade the same stone to lower color and/or clarity.

Many mall stores with lesser quality stones send them to IGI so they get better reports and can sell for more money.

I'm of the opinion that well cut melee stones are critical to beauty; however, they don't need to be individually certified. GIA tends to agree.

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/melee-diamonds-tiny-diamonds-big-impact/

If I were in your shoes and confirming the color and clarity was of vast importance I'd be more inclined to work with a trusted jeweler and reach an agreement where uncertified or IGI stones were acceptable but the final piece would undergo independent appraisal at a mutually agreeable appraiser. If the piece was verified as using quality stones you desire, then great. If not, you have an option to buy at a discounted rate or to reject the piece entirely.

Thank you for your reply. It’s a great suggestion. I am working with a trusted jeweler. I am sure they are using quality stones but as you said it is just for my satisfaction, the certificate will simply will give me confidence.

I actually checked the prices my jeweler quote me with another jeweler, and they were almost the same. And the other jeweler mentioned the said thing that GIA will not certify 0.15ct stones so they can only provide IGI.

These diamonds are for my bangle which is customized for my size/design.

 

[Sakuramickey]

I read it on the internet plus I have noticed a price difference when looking up diamonds.

To clarify I agree they are not long term cheaper I meant on face up value, which you end up having overpaid in the end as the grades would be lower on GIA/AGS @sledge



https://www.diamondscreener.com/edu...ification-labs-gia-vs-igi-grading-and-prices/
figure 3, AND TABLE 4

https://beyond4cs.com/grading/difference-between-gia-ags-egl-igi/labs-to-avoid/

https://www.diamonds.pro/education/igi/
they calculate 18.77% more expensive is GIA.

I am NOT saying I believe these numbers exactly especially as they vary anyways, but I do believe there is enough to suggest that there is a price difference at first...though lost later as you said

Thank you for all these details! I have a lot to read and to learn. That’s why I love PS!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Dear experts,

I just wanted to hear what you experts have to say about this.

Thank you!

If this wasn't a custom bangle I would recommend WF or BGD. Their F/G VS H&A stone bangles are beautiful.

 

[Sakuramickey]

If this wasn't a custom bangle I would recommend WF or BGD. Their F/G VS H&A stone bangles are beautiful.

What is H&A stones?

 

[Sakuramickey]

What would people normally do when they buy jewelry with diamonds smaller than 0.15ct? Since they can’t get GIA certificate, we have to accept IGI? Or one would prefer AGS instead of IGI?

 

[lovedogs]

What is H&A stones?

hearts and arrows (type of cut for round brilliant cuts).

 

[John P]

I'm replying because the title of this thread will bring it up in future searches, and the IGI story is more broad than the sharp indictments posted above.

To be clear: Let me first agree that anyone shopping in the USA can find abundant options graded by GIA or AGS. So, for anyone with any doubts, there's no reason to swerve elsewhere.

With that said, IGI is a remarkable global organization employing a lot of good, honest people. In terms of gemological education they are the industry leader in depth and scope of curriculum. IGI's schools of gemology in China and India serve thousands of jewelry professionals with top-tier education which has helped the Asia-Pacific trade grow responsibly. This includes coursework more diverse and modern than the typical USA Graduate-Gemologist track. IGI are training diamond rough graders. They are producing Jewelry Designers and CAD operators across 14 schools in locations from Antwerp to Shanghai. In terms of range and reach they are outpacing their USA peers in this area.

Why the negative sentiment about IGI in the USA? It is attributable to a subset of reports proliferated by their New York location only. The main player is a "finished jewelry appraisal-report" designed for pieces sold by a number of chain stores. These reports include a replacement-value (for insurance) which is arguable and has the potential for abuse by salespeople in those stores. Additionally, IGI's main presence here is the grading of goods from foreign mass-producers which find their way to department-store counters. They are not serving the USA's independent or high-street jewelry community with abundant loose-diamond grading reports. If they did, I wager their reputation would improve.

Outside the USA IGI's reports are considered quite reputable. Their Antwerp lab was among the first in Europe, their grading and schooling in India is perceived as first-class. In the booming Chinese market the IGI Hong Kong "Hearts & Arrows" report has become the report of choice for lines with a cut-quality focus, much like AGSL holds that position for those lines stateside.

For the OP, let me say again, there is no reason to swerve from a GIA or AGSL report when shopping in the USA. Meanwhile, as a traveled member of the diamond industry, I've had the opportunity to see the positive that this organization does in many corners of the world. In time it would be great if those positives could be replicated here. For now I hope it's interesting to know the larger picture.

 

[Sakuramickey]

I'm replying because the title of this thread will bring it up in future searches, and the IGI story is more broad than the sharp indictments posted above.

To be clear: Let me first agree that anyone shopping in the USA can find abundant options graded by GIA or AGS. So, for anyone with any doubts, there's no reason to swerve elsewhere.

With that said, IGI is a remarkable global organization employing a lot of good, honest people. In terms of gemological education they are the industry leader in depth and scope of curriculum. IGI's schools of gemology in China and India serve thousands of jewelry professionals with top-tier education which has helped the Asia-Pacific trade grow responsibly. This includes coursework more diverse and modern than the typical USA Graduate-Gemologist track. IGI are training diamond rough graders. They are producing Jewelry Designers and CAD operators across 14 schools in locations from Antwerp to Shanghai. In terms of range and reach they are outpacing their USA peers in this area.

Why the negative sentiment about IGI in the USA? It is attributable to a subset of reports proliferated by their New York location only. The main player is a "finished jewelry appraisal-report" designed for pieces sold by a number of chain stores. These reports include a replacement-value (for insurance) which is arguable and has the potential for abuse by salespeople in those stores. Additionally, IGI's main presence here is the grading of goods from foreign mass-producers which find their way to department-store counters. They are not serving the USA's independent or high-street jewelry community with abundant loose-diamond grading reports. If they did, I wager their reputation would improve.

Outside the USA IGI's reports are considered quite reputable. Their Antwerp lab was among the first in Europe, their grading and schooling in India is perceived as first-class. In the booming Chinese market the IGI Hong Kong "Hearts & Arrows" report has become the report of choice for lines with a cut-quality focus, much like AGSL holds that position for those lines stateside.

For the OP, let me say again, there is no reason to swerve from a GIA or AGSL report when shopping in the USA. Meanwhile, as a traveled member of the diamond industry, I've had the opportunity to see the positive that this organization does in many corners of the world. In time it would be great if those positives could be replicated here. For now I hope it's interesting to know the larger picture.

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. It makes me feel better now!

I am based in Dubai. And buying form a reputable jeweler here. I am sure it’s all good though the certification part is merely for my own confidence that I am purchasing a good product.

I will just go ahead with my order as planned. I cannot change from 0.15ct to 0.20ct just to get the GIA certificate.

 

[bmfang]

IGI India has a good reputation amongst some jewellery salespeople I have spoken to. But that only pertains to loose stones. Unfortunately I see too many IGI reports on pre-mounted jewellery which to me are more akin to appraisals than actual grading reports. And that is why for me, they have a lower reputation in my mind.

If I see a loose stone over here in Australia that is graded by IGI, I would consider it alongside GIA options and (I can’t believe I’m saying this) even EGL USA stones. Usually the price discounts offered on EGL USA graded stones and jewellery scares me off as the discount to me is an indication that the stone is not as it is on the report (and that’s when I look at comparable GIA stones at same carat size but lower colour-clarity combos to get and idea of what the EGL graded stone might realistically be).

 

[Sakuramickey]

Thank you all for your reply, appreciate it. One more question if you could help. What is the difference between getting a certificate for all the diamonds in the item vs certificate for each stone in the item.

 

[sledge]

Thanks you @John Pollard for expanding on the global efforts of IGI. It was certainly interesting to me and it thrills me to hear their international operations are thriving!

My posts above were based on the perspective of a US consumer. I do believe they are accurate as of the date of this post, at least for the US consumer market segment.

Also I apologize if my comments led anyone to believe or think I have disdain for the individual IGI workers, as that was never my intent, thoughts or beliefs. Rarely are the individual employees the root of a problem like this. Usually it's quite the opposite. As pointed out, the individual workers tend to be good, honest people that simply want to make a living and provide for their families using their skills, just as we all do.

Changing reputation in a particular market segment will require strong leadership from the top down with a focus on different core philosophies and processes that are currently being implemented. Also it will likely take a longer than desired time frame to produce quality and repeatable results that can be seen and deemed trustworthy by the general public. This likely will involve breaking and building new relationships with various clients as result.

What confuses me is that if IGI is so strong internationally, how did they allow their US operations to become so disjointed from their vision and strong international reputation? Without doubt, international operations have their own set of struggles because of various cultures, expectations, etc so they cannot be expected to work identically as operations elsewhere. However, it seems like top leadership would have already recognized the difference in quality levels and implemented necessary changes to create a stronger and more fluid level of quality and reputation, regardless of the location.

 

[John P]

IGI India has a good reputation amongst some jewellery salespeople I have spoken to. But that only pertains to loose stones. Unfortunately I see too many IGI reports on pre-mounted jewellery which to me are more akin to appraisals than actual grading reports. And that is why for me, they have a lower reputation in my mind.

@bmfang understandable. They appear in the USA too, referenced above, accompanying goods from foreign mass-producers you can find at department-store counters.

If I see a loose stone over here in Australia that is graded by IGI, I would consider it alongside GIA options and (I can’t believe I’m saying this) even EGL USA stones. Usually the price discounts offered on EGL USA graded stones and jewellery scares me off as the discount to me is an indication that the stone is not as it is on the report (and that’s when I look at comparable GIA stones at same carat size but lower colour-clarity combos to get and idea of what the EGL graded stone might realistically be).

An educated shopper can indeed tease out the distinctions. It's interesting to me that you're finding EGL USA with a continued presence in Oz.

Thanks you @John Pollard for expanding on the global efforts of IGI. It was certainly interesting to me and it thrills me to hear their international operations are thriving!

My posts above were based on the perspective of a US consumer. I do believe they are accurate as of the date of this post, at least for the US consumer market segment.

Also I apologize if my comments led anyone to believe or think I have disdain for the individual IGI workers, as that was never my intent, thoughts or beliefs. Rarely are the individual employees the root of a problem like this. Usually it's quite the opposite. As pointed out, the individual workers tend to be good, honest people that simply want to make a living and provide for their families using their skills, just as we all do.

You're welcome, and no need to apologize @sledge . Nor am I disputing your second paragraph, above.

What confuses me is that if IGI is so strong internationally, how did they allow their US operations to become so disjointed from their vision and strong international reputation? Without doubt, international operations have their own set of struggles because of various cultures, expectations, etc so they cannot be expected to work identically as operations elsewhere. However, it seems like top leadership would have already recognized the difference in quality levels and implemented necessary changes to create a stronger and more fluid level of quality and reputation, regardless of the location.

How it was allowed? Long story. The short version is GIA enjoys an insurmountable home-field advantage in the USA. Any foreign lab trying to gain a place in the USA market must find a foothold. EGL International's foothold was overgrading, which eventually got exposed for the fraud it was and destroyed them. IGI's foothold is finished-jewelry grading, mentioned above. EGL USA is ironically serving markets outside the USA, with little to no foothold here. In fact there are a number of good labs around the world offering loose-diamond reports. How can they possibly expect to break into the US market?

For fun, let me turn this around. Imagine for a moment you have your own lab, the GIS (Gemological Institute of Sledge). You founded the GIS in Singapore. You're crushing it in Malaysia, with several top clients using GIS reports. You've visited jewelers in India, the Philippines and even Australia who are now using GIS reports. Cut-focused sellers love your super-ideal 'eGeek' report providing measurements for all facets and an Ideal-Scope image printed right on the report (Garry licensed this for a nominal fee). You're presently in negotiations with @bmfang to manage a second lab location and school of gemology in Melbourne. Everything is coming up roses, but to sustain growth you need a diamond producer to adopt your reports, and to do that you MUST gain some penetration in the USA market. How would you propose to do that?

Let's be clear. Your graders maintain GIA standards for color-clarity. You even added an additional 'transparency' grade to penalize haze, tint or optical issues beyond 10X, and your celebrated 'eGeek' report undeniably separates the best cut rounds and cushions for shoppers. You have reputability in several foreign markets. You have great people and a diverse range of offerings.

Now: How would you propose to penetrate the USA market?

 

[OoohShiny]

I like the sound of the eGeek report lol

 

[bmfang]

@John Pollard , up here in Queensland, EGL USA has a hold in at least two chains. One of which seems to use EGL USA as their main line of “graded” stones with a secondary line of graded stones known as “Rand Diamonds” (http://randdiamond.com.au/ , graded ala De Beers style by the miner according to all the promotional literature I have read).

The other one has a mix of IGI, GIA, EGL USA and ungraded (maybe in-house “grading”).

I don’t think GIA just only has a foothold in the USA: their reputation as the first-tier lab in most consumer’s minds has extended over to Asia and Oceania now as well. With more Aussies now purchasing stones online from US vendors, AGS is also making some inroads. Some Valuers (including one I spoke to on Friday when getting one of my vintage watches serviced by I think her watchmaker husband) know that some Aussies are now becoming “cut nuts” courtesy of places like PS.

Probably a decade ago, we had at least double the number of active Australian based gem labs serving the market. That number has now shrunk immensely to a few in my mind (GSL [the GAA’s affiliated lab], ADGL [which tends to serve Michael Hill and Shiels] and DCLA [which is conflicted now in my mind as they now run a diamond exchange alongside their lab]). Unfortunately, GIA has muscled their way into the Australian market so these local labs now don’t really get much consumer attention (though they do get used by law enforcement).

 

[John P]

I don’t think GIA just only has a foothold in the USA: their reputation as the first-tier lab in most consumer’s minds has extended over to Asia and Oceania now as well.

For certain. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just to say their homefield-advantage in the USA is rather insurmountable. In other parts of the world there's more acceptance of flavors other than GIA.

A bit of a tangent, but this discussion brings to mind an article I wrote some years back, specific to the NGTC in China. Interesting that GIA's inroads into that country (HRD/IGI too) were paved by Chinese consumers' greater confidence in Western products.

China on the Rise (Part Two)
http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=33680

While I'm at it, here's China on the Rise (Part One) for anyone interested. Pricescope gets a mention.
http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=33652

 

[bmfang]

Thank you all for your reply, appreciate it. One more question if you could help. What is the difference between getting a certificate for all the diamonds in the item vs certificate for each stone in the item.

A report on an item is usually not correct as whoever is grading an item is looking at the stones as mounted. The mounting and any other items on the piece of jewellery will impact on any colour grading and because stones are mounted, it is difficult for the grader to accurately grade clarity (particularly if an inclusion is hidden under a prong). Hence why I prefer to call such grading reports as effectively being appraisals.

Grading reports on individual stones will be far more “accurate” than on a finished item. Stones are graded table side down for body colour and the grader can look at the stone from multiple angles to look for inclusions. Of course, this option will be more expensive than the first option as you are looking at multiple items rather than a single item.

 

[Sakuramickey]

A report on an item is usually not correct as whoever is grading an item is looking at the stones as mounted. The mounting and any other items on the piece of jewellery will impact on any colour grading and because stones are mounted, it is difficult for the grader to accurately grade clarity (particularly if an inclusion is hidden under a prong). Hence why I prefer to call such grading reports as effectively being appraisals.

Grading reports on individual stones will be far more “accurate” than on a finished item. Stones are graded table side down for body colour and the grader can look at the stone from multiple angles to look for inclusions. Of course, this option will be more expensive than the first option as you are looking at multiple items rather than a single item.

Thank you @bmfang for the clarification. I requested for F VS1 stones. So I assume the jeweler is going to secure F VS1 stones prior to the mounting job. And once the mounting job is done the item will be sent to GIA lab for certification. If the certificate comes as F VS1 total carat of x.xx then it is all good right? Cause then I am paying for what I requested.

The difficulty in grading after mounting will only effect the clarity and not the color? As your example if the inclusion is hidden under the prongs the grader won’t be able to see it.

 

[bmfang]

GIA does not grade mounted stones. Only loose. IGI does “grade” mounted stones.

 

[Sakuramickey]

GIA does not grade mounted stones. Only loose. IGI does “grade” mounted stones.

Thank you!

 

[Matilda]

I would consider getting the bracelet appraised once it is finished, as it seems you are keen to have some piece of mind. Another, albeit lengthier option, would be to send it to AGS to be graded:

https://www.americangemsociety.org/page/diamondtrademounte

But as different labs vary in the their grades it may be less complicated to get it appraised. The appraiser will verify or dispute that the bracelet is the quality stated on the IGI report. This will be faster than sending it to AGS as well.

 

[Sakuramickey]

I would consider getting the bracelet appraised once it is finished, as it seems you are keen to have some piece of mind. Another, albeit lengthier option, would be to send it to AGS to be graded:

https://www.americangemsociety.org/page/diamondtrademounte

But as different labs vary in the their grades it may be less complicated to get it appraised. The appraiser will verify or dispute that the bracelet is the quality stated on the IGI report. This will be faster than sending it to AGS as well.

Thank you @Matilda you are right, this IGI thing is bothering me. So I am changing the settings from 0.15ct to 0.20ct stones. My jeweler confirmed that with 0.20ct I can get GIA certificate but it will be only one certificate and not individual certificate. I would require about 20stones for the bangle. Now why would I get only one certificate for all 20stones? It’s not that I need one certificate for each stone but curious to know the difference between one certificate for each vs one for all

 

[sledge]

The difficulty in grading after mounting will only effect the clarity and not the color? As your example if the inclusion is hidden under the prongs the grader won’t be able to see it.

While some color difference can be seen from the top, the majority of color is seen in the side (or pavilion) of the diamond. When grading, diamond are turned face down and then compared to a certified master set of stones to identify their true color.

So yes, both color & clarity is affected by the fact the stones will be mounted. Because you can't get as accurate of a reading this is why many are saying these are "appraisals" more than true certifications.

 

[bmfang]

Interesting. This is the first time for me that I have heard that GIA will issue a grading report on a finished piece of jewellery containing multiple stones.