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Did you get a flu shot this year?

msop04

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Wow. That sounds actually worse than polio, because there is no vaccine and limited if any recovery.

Since it's in the polio family, I'm surprised they've not tried to come up with a vaccine for it. Although I guess they did say they aren't sure it's JUST enterovirus, or rather enterovirus is just one of maybe several.

The world is indeed a dangerous place.

I don't think it's part of the polio family... just mimics the symptoms. I'm not sure about that. I'm at work, or I'd research further. Maybe someone can explain?

ETA: CDC says that poliovirus (another enterovirus - not just EV-A71 listed before) may cause AFM, but it says that stool samples tested negative for polio... interesting.

But, yes, it is worse than polio in that there is no vaccine for Enterovirus or Rhinovirus... scary stuff.
 
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ksinger

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Here's a little info on AFM from the CDC website...
https://www.cdc.gov/acute-flaccid-myelitis/about-afm.html

Being the armchair neurologist I have become :rolleyes: ha ha!, I thought the symptoms sounded a bit like transverse myelitis. And anything spinal is always really bad.

They mentioned not ruling out autoimmune causes but considering it's so new here and that it has a "season" each year (so far) it sure sounds like a viral cause.

Viruses. The last great health frontier for sure.
 

msop04

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Being the armchair neurologist I have become :rolleyes: ha ha!, I thought the symptoms sounded a bit like transverse myelitis. And anything spinal is always really bad.

They mentioned not ruling out autoimmune causes but considering it's so new here and that it has a "season" each year (so far) it sure sounds like a viral cause.

Viruses. The last great health frontier for sure.

Yes! You're absolutely right!! I came across transverse myelitis when reading about it!
 

Ellen

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I will be starting this thread back up a little later on down the road with MSOP, but I wanted to preface it with a short, true story. It speaks to human nature, and I believe it speaks to this subject. My hope, is that it speaks to many of you reading this thread.

Before I knew all about diamonds, my husband and I had asked his brother if he would find me a nice pair of diamond studs. He had become quite successful in business, and had become interested in diamonds for his wife. He had bought several expensive pieces from a particular jeweler, and so he went to him again to find a set of studs for me, as we felt he knew what he was doing and we didn't. He found a pair that were under 1/2 ct. total, G, VS1. (no papers)

After finding PS, and becoming educated on diamonds, I bought my upgrade Ering from GOG. Of course I got a loupe with it, so I immediately looked at my studs also. One, out of curiosity, and two, I was never truly satisfied with how they looked. They weren't bad, but they didn't seem, right.... My heart sank. There was no way on earth they were VS1. My educated guess was SI1, and I also guessed one possibly had strong fluorescence.

I had already found a certified gemologist in my area to confirm my GOG stone was what it should be when it came in, and I took the studs with me to the appt. After she was done looking at my Ering, (which she had extremely high praise for and could not believe I had bought it sight unseen ::)), she looked at my studs. Suspicions confirmed. Both were G SI1, and one had strong flo. That verdict caused a real mixed bag of emotions. On the one hand, I was pretty proud of myself for calling the grading with nothing but a loupe and a little (well, a lot!) of on line studying. But that was short lived, and I was then struck with the knowledge I had been ripped off. By someone my BIL had trusted. And my thought then was, I wonder if he's ever been ripped off too? He needs to be told. (His jeweler had since retired or I would have gone back to him)

So I let my husband handle it, as it was a sticky situation. My husband relayed everything that had transpired, ending with him offering his brother the loupe so he could see for himself the fact that they were not what he had been led to believe. He was in total disbelief as to what my husband told him. And he refused to take the loupe and look at my studs. To this day, he will not believe his jeweler would do this to him. But the fact remains, his jeweler did deceive him and us both. And it's also a fact that my BIL only learned so much about diamonds apparently, and then quit. He thought he knew everything he needed to know, and trusted the "expert". And look where that got him (and us).

He will never pick up the loupe and look at my studs, because he doesn't want to see what they really are. But not looking doesn't change the truth of the matter, it just lets him not have to face it. Because let's be honest, no one LIKES admitting when they've been had.

However, it comes down to this many times in life, and one has to make the choice. Does one want to believe what they want to believe, or does one want to know the real truth?

Food for thought.


I would appreciate it if no comments were made about this post, I do not want it derailing the subject at hand. Thank you!
 

YadaYadaYada

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A bill has been introduced in our state to eliminate the religious exemption which means we would be left with no choice apart from comply or move. Even with moving it's just a matter of time before these exemptions (apart from medical) are eliminated everywhere else.

So I had to have a conversation with my eleven year old last night to say this is what could happen and I can't promise you that you will never get another shot but also don't worry yet. I can only hope that there is a grandfather clause similar to what California had when they eliminated their exemptions. In that case it would mean we wouldn't have to worry about the oldest until he leaves high school and the youngest would be okay until 6th or 7th grade.
 

Ellen

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Stephanie, do you mind mentioning what state you live in?
 

YadaYadaYada

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Ellen

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baby monster

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I highly doubt that religious exemption will be outlawed. NY is having a large measles outbreak in Orthodox Jewish community because they refuse to vaccinate. That community has strong political sway so they will kill any anti-exemption bills.
 

YadaYadaYada

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@Ellen, medical exemptions are extremely rigid in what qualifies and it has to be backed by documentation, a lot of what happened with my son was either not documented or I didn't report it at the time because I didn't realize it was abnormal.

Also doctors will probably be hesitant to write medical exemptions because of what happened to Dr. Sears in CA. He along with other holistic doctors were writing exemptions based on blood work results for things like mutations etc, except these do not qualify for an exemption under the guidelines so he was at risk of losing his license, instead they put him on probation for 36 months and has to work under the oversight of another doctor.

I'm going to talk to the pediatrician when I bring the kids in for their physicals, my older one can have blood work done that might prove immunity so he wouldn't have to have all the shots and at least there are fewer for the older kids.

@baby monster, the bill in CT was brought about by rabbis in Stamford which borders NY who brought their concerns (based on what happened in the Jewish community in NY) to a representative from Stamford who introduced the bill.
 

AGBF

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A bill has been introduced in our state to eliminate the religious exemption which means we would be left with no choice apart from comply or move. Even with moving it's just a matter of time before these exemptions (apart from medical) are eliminated everywhere else.

So I had to have a conversation with my eleven year old last night to say this is what could happen and I can't promise you that you will never get another shot but also don't worry yet. I can only hope that there is a grandfather clause similar to what California had when they eliminated their exemptions. In that case it would mean we wouldn't have to worry about the oldest until he leaves high school and the youngest would be okay until 6th or 7th grade.

StephanieLynn-

Is this a law about attending public school? Would home schooling get around it? (I live in Connecticut, too. No one can forcibly vaccinate adults. There has to be something about children that makes them vulnerable to the law.)

Deb :wavey:
 

YadaYadaYada

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StephanieLynn-

Is this a law about attending public school? Would home schooling get around it? (I live in Connecticut, too. No one can forcibly vaccinate adults. There has to be something about children that makes them vulnerable to the law.)

Deb :wavey:

Hey Deb,

In CT children who attend public school must receive certain vaccinations to attend, currently CT allows a medical exemption or religious exemption under CT law. Homeschooling is an option if they get rid of the religious exemption as these laws don't usually extend to homeschooling families or kids that do part time study in a public school, it's just full time public school students.

I guess kids are vulnerable because they can make it a condition of public education, play by our rules or don't attend. Some parents can't afford to stay home and homeschool so that leaves them with little option but to comply in states like California where only a medical exemption exists.

My stance is that I'm going to prepare for the worst and hope for the best here but CT loves to pass laws (and taxes) for everything they can, it's only a matter of time.
 

Ellen

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I will definitely be praying for you. :nono:
 

Ellen

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Morning MSOP! I am ready to engage in a conversation with you about flu vacs and vacs in general if you are still up for it. I think what I would like to know first is, why do you believe in them? Why do you trust them? :))

And I realize you are working and a mom, do not feel rushed! ;))
 

Dancing Fire

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Morning MSOP! I am ready to engage in a conversation with you about flu vacs and vacs in general if you are still up for it. I think what I would like to know first is, why do you believe in them? Why do you trust them? :))

And I realize you are working and a mom, do not feel rushed! ;))
Easy answer...b/c she's in the medical field. ;))
 

msop04

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Easy answer...b/c she's in the medical field. ;))
@Ellen

Well... to agree with DF in a word, yes. I've spent many years studying chemistry (general, organic, medicinal, etc), physiology/pathophysiology, infectious disease, and all that you would imagine that goes into a pre-medical/chemistry undergraduate and pharmacy school curriculum with several other (valuable) classes/residencies, such as pharmacy law, ethics, and drug information (where we are taught to pick apart studies).

I also know that vaccines work in saving millions of lives and have all but decimated life-threatening diseases that had threatened us for centuries, or even millenia.

I don't necessarily "believe in" vaccines (or science) as if to believe in the Tooth Fairy or some other mystical thing. :) I know they work because I understand how they work and the science behind them. I also understand that things change as life evolves, new discoveries are made all the time... and our understanding of science must evolve and change as well.
 

msop04

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Hey ya'll... I just wanted to reach out to say that I hope everyone has managed to stay well this flu season. Our clinic is has seen so much flu in the past 3 weeks -- and 6 flu (+)'s since we've been open today (2 hours). Please wash your hands and try to stay healthy.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Here is something I would like to know. Why are kids vaccinated multiple times with the same vaccine when some respond so well to the first shot? Why is it not standard practice to give them one and then run blood work to see how well they've responded before giving them more? Yes it totally stinks to have to hold down a child while they get blood drawn but isn't it worth it to avoid sending their immune system into overdrive unnecessarily?

Here is my son's results from 2011, this was from one dose of MMR vaccine given in 2008. Please note that he is well into the positive range for each one and this is after ONE dose of MMR.

By the way I only found out about an antibody titer test after I switched pediatricians and switched to an osteopath. Otherwise the doctors don't even tell you this is an option before giving a kid more shots :rolleyes:

They need to stop treating these children as one size fits all IMO.

IMG_3199.JPG
 

msop04

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Here is something I would like to know. Why are kids vaccinated multiple times with the same vaccine when some respond so well to the first shot? Why is it not standard practice to give them one and then run blood work to see how well they've responded before giving them more? Yes it totally stinks to have to hold down a child while they get blood drawn but isn't it worth it to avoid sending their immune system into overdrive unnecessarily?

Here is my son's results from 2011, this was from one dose of MMR vaccine given in 2008. Please note that he is well into the positive range for each one and this is after ONE dose of MMR.

By the way I only found out about an antibody titer test after I switched pediatricians and switched to an osteopath. Otherwise the doctors don't even tell you this is an option before giving a kid more shots :rolleyes:

They need to stop treating these children as one size fits all IMO.

IMG_3199.JPG

Because not all kids respond well (develop adequate antibodies) to the first shot. If they did, it would be a one-and-done vaccine schedule.

The vaccine does not wear off, but the second dose is given because some children are non-responders when the vaccine is initially administered at 11 or 12 months of age. The only way to tell whether the child is a non-responder would be to draw blood for an antibody titer. Some children will develop normal antibody titers in response to the initial dose of MMR vaccine and develop higher antibody titers after the second dose of the vaccine. Typically, these increased antibody levels do not persist.

Current practice calls for the administration of 2 doses of MMR, the first after the first birthday (12 to 15 months) and the second at school entry @ 4 to 6 years. The recommendation for the second dose at this age range is based on administrative considerations.*

*MMR can be administered at an earlier age as long as the interval between the doses is 28 days or longer. Caregivers are advised that early administration of the second dose is not common and may not be recognized by providers or school officials, who may not be familiar with this approach. These children may require an additional dose at school entry. As long as documentation of a second dose of measles vaccination is provided, compliance with current immunization policies will be achieved.

Basically, the second is given to make sure titers are adequately developed... and to make sure kids are fully vaccinated before entering school.
 

msop04

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Per CDC:

Why is a second dose of MMR necessary?
Between 2% and 5% of people do not develop measles immunity after the first dose of vaccine. This occurs for a variety of reasons. The second dose is to provide another chance to develop measles immunity for people who did not respond to the first dose.

Are there any situations where more than 2 doses of MMR are recommended?
There are two circumstances when a third dose of MMR is recommended. ACIP recommends that women of childbearing age who have received 2 doses of rubella-containing vaccine and have rubella serum IgG levels that are not clearly positive should receive 1 additional dose of MMR vaccine (maximum of 3 doses). Further testing for serologic evidence of rubella immunity is not recommended. MMR should not be administered to a pregnant woman.
In 2018, ACIP published guidance for MMR vaccination of persons at increased risk for acquiring mumps during an outbreak. Persons previously vaccinated with 2 doses of a mumps virus–containing vaccine who are identified by public health authorities as being part of a group or population at increased risk for acquiring mumps because of an outbreak should receive a third dose of a mumps virus–containing vaccine (MMR or MMRV) to improve protection against mumps disease and related complications. More information about this recommendation is available at www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/pdfs/mm6701a7-H.pdf
 

Ellen

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@Ellen

Well... to agree with DF in a word, yes. I've spent many years studying chemistry (general, organic, medicinal, etc), physiology/pathophysiology, infectious disease, and all that you would imagine that goes into a pre-medical/chemistry undergraduate and pharmacy school curriculum with several other (valuable) classes/residencies, such as pharmacy law, ethics, and drug information (where we are taught to pick apart studies).

I also know that vaccines work in saving millions of lives and have all but decimated life-threatening diseases that had threatened us for centuries, or even millenia.

I don't necessarily "believe in" vaccines (or science) as if to believe in the Tooth Fairy or some other mystical thing. :) I know they work because I understand how they work and the science behind them. I also understand that things change as life evolves, new discoveries are made all the time... and our understanding of science must evolve and change as well.
Can you tell me what exactly you were taught about vaccines specifically?
 

YadaYadaYada

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I understand what you're saying @msop04 but the fact that there are kids who react so favorably (like my son) to one dose means that there should be some consideration given to drawing blood before administering a second dose. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that doctors hardly ever suggest this to parents prior to administering that second shot.

Why not change the protocol so that we aren't overvaccinating kids, let's stop treating vaccines as these benign harmless rights of childhood and treat them as what they really are, a medical treatment.

And to address what @telephone89 posted about anti vaxxers being labeled a top health threat by WHO, that's just a way to discredit the very real experiences and concerns that SOME people have had. It's just a way to bully people into silence really instead of acknowledging that maybe there is some merit to what they believe.
 

Ellen

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I understand what you're saying @msop04 but the fact that there are kids who react so favorably (like my son) to one dose means that there should be some consideration given to drawing blood before administering a second dose. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that doctors hardly ever suggest this to parents prior to administering that second shot.

Why not change the protocol so that we aren't overvaccinating kids, let's stop treating vaccines as these benign harmless rights of childhood and treat them as what they really are, a medical treatment.

And to address what @telephone89 posted about anti vaxxers being labeled a top health threat by WHO, that's just a way to discredit the very real experiences and concerns that SOME people have had. It's just a way to bully people into silence really instead of acknowledging that maybe there is some merit to what they believe.
Yes and yes.

All people are not anti vaccine either. They just want what they feel are safe vaccines, especially the ones that have been injured or have a loved one injured. Let's please stop painting with such a broad brush, ok? :))
 

msop04

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Can you tell me what exactly you were taught about vaccines specifically?

I'm not really sure what you're asking... I can post a diagram or an explanation of the mechanism of action for a lay person if you'd like.
 

Ellen

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I'm not really sure what you're asking... I can post a diagram or an explanation of the mechanism of action for a lay person if you'd like.
I was wondering if you were taught in depth what was in them, how they worked, the possible contraindications, possible adverse reactions, etc.
 

msop04

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I understand what you're saying @msop04 but the fact that there are kids who react so favorably (like my son) to one dose means that there should be some consideration given to drawing blood before administering a second dose. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that doctors hardly ever suggest this to parents prior to administering that second shot.

Why not change the protocol so that we aren't overvaccinating kids, let's stop treating vaccines as these benign harmless rights of childhood and treat them as what they really are, a medical treatment.

And to address what @telephone89 posted about anti vaxxers being labeled a top health threat by WHO, that's just a way to discredit the very real experiences and concerns that SOME people have had. It's just a way to bully people into silence really instead of acknowledging that maybe there is some merit to what they believe.

I'm sure a lot of consideration was given to what you suggest. At the end of the day, it was decided that a second vaccination would be given to ensure adequate coverage. I can only speak for my pediatrician (and others in the area that I know well), but they are open to any and all questions and/or concerns and are more than happy to do the labs. The problem arises when insurances/parents don't want to pay for it, as it may be viewed as "extra" or "unnecessary" by a third party.

Anti-vaxxers are a huge health threat, IMO. Measles outbreaks are an epidemic now, when this disease was all but eradicated in our country for decades.
 

msop04

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I was wondering if you were taught in depth what was in them, how they worked, the possible contraindications, possible adverse reactions, etc.

Absolutely. About 4 years of study in a PharmD program, in addition to residencies. I believe I answered this (the ingredients and information about them) about almost every vaccination given somewhere upthread... or maybe in another vaccine thread. That's what pharmacy school is.
 
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