Huge diamond list; How to weed out?

[canuk-gal]

HI:

If your friends used the same "source"--what method(s)/logic did they rely on to decide

Yes I am in the US. It does seem a bit inefficient to me. He has been pleasant to deal with and I have a handful of friends who went through him. I don't think they did nearly as much research as I am doing, so I take their recommendations with a grain of salt. I will tell him specific parameters and see how he responds.

Fair enough. But what were the final variables that induced "them" to buy? There has to be some logic or reasoning to make a decision from ubiquitous spreadsheets.

cheers--Sharon

 

[MarionC]

What am I missing here. When I bought my asscher I looked at many more than 200 diamonds. Anyway, it costs nothing, sounds like fun, and will be educational.

 

[OoohShiny]

Is it possible to upload a picture or scan of the list?

 

[ringo865]

His list is diamonds that are in virtual inventory; meaning, you can probably find them (with imagery, certs, and pricing info) on some of the PS recommended vendors' sites and could either buy from one of them online, or pick a stone and then tell this guy you want this stone at this price, and let him call it in for you.

 

[denverappraiser]

Chances are good that many, even most, of those 200 stones are listed in the virtual database here. Pick a stone and use the Pricescope search engine to search for a stone with those exact parameters. You can click on the column headers to sort the list for things like depth% and table% to quickly narrow down the list. If you get an exact hit, drill down in the ad and see what else they know about it. There’s a decent chance they’ll have a scan of the cert as well as the CA & PA and possibly other things of interest. That’ll also give you a feel for how competitive their prices are. Some of the folks here are very price aggressive.

 

[farrahlyn]

His list is diamonds that are in virtual inventory; meaning, you can probably find them (with imagery, certs, and pricing info) on some of the PS recommended vendors' sites and could either buy from one of them online, or pick a stone and then tell this guy you want this stone at this price, and let him call it in for you.

this is a GREAT POINT! Let us help you search some virtual inventory and see if he can get pull in say 3 stones for you to look at in person. Plus you can compare pricing to online vendors. As long as he is on the up and up and pricing is good, I see nothing wrong with using this guy, i think it would be a really fun project!

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

As many here have pointed out, any vendor you are working with should be able to discard diamonds outside the parameters you give him. The numbers posted earlier in the thread could be a great starting point, cut and paste that criteria and see how many of the approx. 200 diamonds still remain.

 

[ollie808]

Hi everyone OP here, I want to thank everyone for their input; it has been truly invaluable however simple your advice may seem.

I sent the new, strict criteria and guess what? He sent a revised list of just ten WITH certs!! Down from the vague list of 200! (My question is why all of a sudden does he have certs now?)

New question: I seem to have found one of his on Blue Nile--matching GIA report--for about $2k less. Is it as simple as just finding it online and using that as negotiating power? Of course light return performance needs to be analyzed, but is that the reason why he didn't want to give out certs? So we wouldn't find his diamonds online for cheaper?

 

[Dancing Fire]

New question: I seem to have found one of his on Blue Nile--matching GIA report--for about $2k less. Is it as simple as just finding it online and using that as negotiating power? Of course light return performance needs to be analyzed, but is that the reason why he didn't want to give out certs? So we wouldn't find his diamonds online for cheaper?

 

[Snowdrop13]

He will have had the certs all the way along, surely?

I don’t have a problem with someone in a bricks and mortar store charging a higher price for a diamond- obviously their time and overhead need to be paid for. Your guy does not appear to be behaving in a very transparent manner, though, which makes him sound untrustworthy.

Seriously, tell us your budget and we’ll find stones that you can at least compare with what he’s showing you.

 

[sledge]

My guess is your guy has started filtering in steps. You went in and said, "hey I'm looking for a 1.5 to 1.75ct G+ eye clean stone with excellent cut, what do you have?"

He didn't have anything in stock but he wants you to believe he has access to what you want. He does large parameter searches and kicks out that list to show you he has large inventory available. He probably assumes you will narrow the list to half a dozen or so based on price and the 4 C's you find most valuable. He would then likely talk to you and pull certs and narrow the list even further based on conversations and under his interpretation of your needs/wants and his personal evaluation of the certs.

If he wasn't satisfied he would likely refilter results to something he thought would make you happy.

Basically he was holding your hand during the search process and employing sales technique 101 on you. Nothing wrong with this I guess but we don't all like that style.

I'm certainly not of the thought I'm going to pay more for a process that i don't like so I'm not in agreement that B&M's deserve a higher premium for the sole fact they are B&M's. Internet or local, a company needs to deliver excellent customer service and product to deserve a premium of any sort.

And yes, if you can find the identical diamond elsewhere for less money you can (and IMO should) negotiate a better price for yourself. Where I might consider paying a little more is if he will truly bring the stones in, let you use his ASET, idealscope and hearts and arrows scopes to verify diamond performance prior to actually purchasing.

Sadly it's just all so much slower in person but that is your call how you wish to proceed. Not to mention unless you photograph and share the images you don't get the PS community to help you interpret and verify the data you are analyzing to ensure a superb cut.

 

[whitewave]

Hi everyone OP here, I want to thank everyone for their input; it has been truly invaluable however simple your advice may seem.

I sent the new, strict criteria and guess what? He sent a revised list of just ten WITH certs!! Down from the vague list of 200! (My question is why all of a sudden does he have certs now?)

New question: I seem to have found one of his on Blue Nile--matching GIA report--for about $2k less. Is it as simple as just finding it online and using that as negotiating power? Of course light return performance needs to be analyzed, but is that the reason why he didn't want to give out certs? So we wouldn't find his diamonds online for cheaper?

Keep in mind that he will likely offer you yearly services, etc, that blue nile does not. I have not had a problem with blue nile, but they are basically a once and done place.

You will get personal service and can go to him for yearly inspections and cleaning, and he has to make money, so just keep that in mind when negotiating. He likely can’t afford to match blue nile, but you may be able to get him to come down some.

We said in the beginning, true wholesalers do not sell to the public.

 

[sledge]

Keep in mind that he will likely offer you yearly services, etc, that blue nile does not. I have not had a problem with blue nile, but they are basically a once and done place.

You will get personal service and can go to him for yearly inspections and cleaning, and he has to make money, so just keep that in mind when negotiating. He likely can’t afford to match blue nile, but you may be able to get him to come down some.

We said in the beginning, true wholesalers do not sell to the public.

This philosophy certainly holds true if you plan on living at the same place "forever", or if your jeweler never goes out of business or sells out to someone else.

If any of these variables happen, it could drastically change the value/perception of that purchase that you paid extra to get. Maybe my view is tainted though as I have moved quite a bit in my life and experienced things from a different perspective.

Regardless, @whitewave makes a good point. If the local jeweler is offering additional services with the purchase, then you need to equally compare that to what you get with an online vendor. The proper mathematical equation would look something like this:

IC (initial cost of diamond) + SC (cost for periodic service/maintenance) = TC (total cost)

When comparing vendors, compare them on the TC variable. If you opt for an online vendor, it takes the risk of all these things I mentioned earlier out of question and gives you flexibility to spend the SC variable with whomever and wherever you want.

 

[david b]

I never heard of someone selling diamonds out of a printed list. This is really weired. Is he a registered bussiness?
All the online stores have lists you can sort by any parameter within seconds, a possible reason I can think of for not showing the cert numbers is to eliminate your option to look for the same diamond elsewhere (possibly for better price)

 

[OoohShiny]

I never heard of someone selling diamonds out of a printed list. This is really weired. Is he a registered bussiness?
All the online stores have lists you can sort by any parameter within seconds, a possible reason I can think of for not showing the cert numbers is to eliminate your option to look for the same diamond elsewhere (possibly for better price)

I definitely agree with the second sentence!

I have seen printed lists of in-stock or locally available stones when shopping in London - I guess they are a useful quick-reference list for staff of what is immediately available. I hadn't really found PS at that point - if I had, I would perhaps have felt more confident picking out stones with suitable parameters!

 

[ollie808]

When I went in for my initial meeting with him, knowing very little about any of this, he said he has a "proprietary diamond photoscope". From what I recall I'm pretty sure it was an ASET (a good thing).

If it is an ASET, is that good enough? Do i need both the ASET AND idealscope to make an informed decision? Hearts and arrows scope too?

I am very close to walking away due to the fact that he is adding very little value to the process, and even less if he does not have the necessary tools.

 

[sledge]

When I went in for my initial meeting with him, knowing very little about any of this, he said he has a "proprietary diamond photoscope". From what I recall I'm pretty sure it was an ASET (a good thing).

If it is an ASET, is that good enough? Do i need both the ASET AND idealscope to make an informed decision? Hearts and arrows scope too?

I am very close to walking away due to the fact that he is adding very little value to the process, and even less if he does not have the necessary tools.

LOL, an ASET scope is not proprietary by any stretch of the imagination. If so, then one of them will be arriving on my door step by tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to repackage it and sell it for a hefty premium.

If you want one, you can order for $25 from AGS directly, and pay another $12 for shipping. So about $37 total.

https://www.americangemsociety.org/page/newhandheldaset

Anyhow, enough with that. If you can get an ASET, you don't need an Idealscope (IS) image.

The difference being an IS image only shows leakage. A dark red image is good. White or pink areas show leakage. Black shows obstructions.

With an ASET you have red, green, blue & black. Red is good and shows intense light return. Green is okay and shows less intense light. Blue means there is an obstruction (arrows for example). Black (or white if backlighting is used) is bad and shows leakage.

Below is how to compare good & bad ASET's.

 

[ollie808]

So should I ask him if he physically has the ASET?

If he is just printing out the imagery from somewhere else and handing us the printout then I will probably take my business elsewhere.

Are ASET images freely given out?

If the certs and light-return images are freely given out on online retailers, how does this guy have a business?

 

[sledge]

So should I ask him if he physically has the ASET?

If he is just printing out the imagery from somewhere else and handing us the printout then I will probably take my business elsewhere.

Are ASET images freely given out?

If the certs and light-return images are freely given out on online retailers, how does this guy have a business?

Here is a picture of an ASET scope:

I think it's worthwhile to ask your jeweler if he has one in the store. I don't think it's a reason to nix him for not having one as I think many jewelers don't have them. Why I don't know as I see them as essential tools in grading light return performance. Of course, you may not want to break it out on every stone, especially those that don't perform well.

The problem is that to take the image, you need to have possession of the diamond. So if the diamonds aren't in his store, then yes, his supplier is taking the image(s) and forwarding to him. This is where it gets tricky. When dealing in virtual inventory, you will learn that not all suppliers are cooperative in providing videos, images, etc. Sometimes getting them to confirm a stone is eye clean is a challenge. Others are better and more accommodating, and I suspect a large part of that has to do with in-place agreements with certain retailers (Yadav, BN, etc).

They aren't just "freely available". It takes the stone, equipment, time and technology to make it all happen. Your chances of getting the data from the supplier is even less as most suppliers won't talk to you (the consumer) and will instead go through a retail channel like your local guy or one of the internet retailers already mentioned.

While I was poking fun at your local guy's use of the term "proprietary" earlier, I do think it's a good sign he is willing to bring in the diamonds and use his equipment to confirm light return performance. All this assuming it is indeed an ASET scope, and not some other scope he has devised on his own accord -- which I guess then would make it proprietary. But if that is the case, then only he sets the rules, etc and there is no unbiased way to judge if his proprietary images are valid or not. My guess is he was just trying to sound like a big shot and it's an ASET or IS scope.

One of the reasons I recommend some vendors like BGD, WF, HPD, etc is because they give you oodles and oodles of information and is very transparent about all data, pricing, etc. They have excellent customer service, large quality selections, great pricing and true hearts & arrow stones that exhibit the best symmetry and cut grades for the most sparkle.

Some of what we are talking is highlighted on WF's page as standard data:
https://www.whiteflash.com/whiteflash-diamond-imaging/

And if you told me your list of diamond criteria then myself and/or others could pop you back some great choices within a very short time frame because all this data is available online and we can sort it ourselves.

For instance, I was searching WF earlier for someone else, and below is a quick example of data you can see. Click on each diamond for additional details.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=3712977,3905786,3905121,3784275

 

[WinkHPD]

Are ASET images freely given out?

Many, if not most, reputable diamond retailers will have an ASET in house. Some will have a presentation style ASET such as the one below.



At the very least, a reputable retailer should have a hand held version and be willing to share it with his clientele.

Even if a retailer does not have an ASET of his own, many of the dealers that they buy from will supply them with images for them to share with their clients.

The top quality online diamond sellers will have full information such as copies of the AGS or GIA reports, ASET images, Ideal-scope images, magnified images of the diamonds, etc on their websites.

Your task, as a person in search of a quality diamond, is to find the retailers who will offer you the information that you need without making it hard for you to find. Those are the sites that leave you thinking, "Wow, I never knew how much there was to know about a diamond's cut." There are several such sites recommended often by the regulars here, as those sites have earned their reputations. They do not hold themselves out as wholesalers, as they are clearly dealing with the public. They do not hold out information that should be freely offered as they are WANTING to help educate their clients.

They also do not bury you in long lists with limited information, making it nearly impossible for you to find what you are looking for with anything other than blind luck, or Pricescope regulars, guiding you to a diamond of spectacular beauty rather than a relatively lifeless lump of crystallized carbon.

When you find the right retailer, whether online or in a Bricks and Mortar store, you will come up smelling of beautiful roses.

Wink

 

[OoohShiny]

At the very least, a reputable retailer should have a hand held version and be willing to share it with his clientele.

Hey Wink!

My experience in London is that no-one has ever mentioned, offered, or likely been aware of IS and ASET, and the mention of Pricescope usually seems to get met with blank looks...

The UK does seem to be behind the USA in that regard - perhaps it is because AGS, the American Gem Society, is pushing light performance analysis, and over here, AGS never even gets a mention or is completely unknown as a grading option. Heck, GIA graded stones are proudly shouted about if they are offered lol, with HRD / IGI etc. being the usual papers available, if any!

I can appreciate that jewellers with years of experience might feel irked that customers are turning up and moaning because they trust pictures from a $25 piece of plastic over said jeweller's wisdom and knowledge and 'eye', but this is the new age, people, the internet grants the customer more power! (and all the better for it!) Plus, going from what I see in shop windows, I really don't trust jewellers' eyes over here...

 

[Dancing Fire]

When you find the right retailer, whether online or in a Bricks and Mortar store, you will come up smelling of beautiful roses.
Wink

That's the reason why I love working with Wink. TBH, I don't need to look at the videos of CBI stones b/c I know they are all beautifully cut. . Basically I just look for a stone with a smaller table + a high crown...< this just me.

 

[sledge]

We are very blessed to have quality vendors like HPD, BGD and WF. Each has their own awesomeness and I have no qualms recommending any of them. You know you will get quality product, all the documentation, some great personalities, fair pricing and top notch customer service.

 

[ollie808]

Curveball: He says he has neither ASET nor idealscope images; but rather his own version of analysis, he will explain when I see him. Is this the last straw?

I am aware of Whiteflash; what are HPD and BGD?

 

[sledge]

Curveball: He says he has neither ASET nor idealscope images; but rather his own version of analysis, he will explain when I see him. Is this the last straw?

I am aware of Whiteflash; what are HPD and BGD?

HPD = High Performance Diamonds
BGD = Brian Gavin Diamonds

Both are superb vendors. Brian actually helped cofound WF and then went out on his own several years back. When at WF he helped create their ACA line. He is well known and respected for his cut quality.

@Wink founded HPD and their super ideals labeled as Crafted by Infinity (CBI). I've yet to see a CBI super ideal in person against a WF ACA or BGD super ideal but one seen videos and photos saying they are done different so their is a different contrast. On those mediums I've seen differences that I do like. Others say they cant see it. Until I see in person I won't go one way or the other. I do know I like Winks enthusiasm for diamonds and helping people and think he's in it for the right reason.

Again 3 quality vendors. Hard to choose a favorite as I like them all. However the stone I bought for my girl came from BGD and we love it! It's not just the quality but Lesley at BGD is a huge part of the experience and is lovely to deal with

 

[sledge]

As far as your local guy I'm interested to know what he's talking about.

 

[yssie]

@Wink founded HPD and their super ideals labeled as Crafted by Infinity (CBI).

@Wink or @Winks_Elf can clarify, but I believe HPD is one of a few retailers of the CBI line - not directly affiliated with the Infinity llc. Paul Slegers and John Pollard are CBI executives who post here regularly, and this community is lucky to have them.

 

[sledge]

@Wink or @Winks_Elf can clarify, but I believe HPD is one of a few retailers of the CBI line - not directly affiliated with the Infinity llc. Paul Slegers and John Pollard are CBI executives who post here regularly, and this community is lucky to have them.

Thank you @yssie for the clarification. I've bumped into John a few times and always enjoy his comments also. He is 5he type of guy I'd enjoy drinking a beer with and talking tech details.

I didn't realize they were external of HPD but had assumed instead they were there own separate "division" of sorts.

 

[rockysalamander]

Curveball: He says he has neither ASET nor idealscope images; but rather his own version of analysis, he will explain when I see him. Is this the last straw?

I am aware of Whiteflash; what are HPD and BGD?

Yes, but I'm very curious what magical analytical tool he will use.....

 

[SimoneDi]

OP, it is your decision in the end, but it appears this “diamond person” is causing more headaches than adding value to the engagement ring shopping experience, which is supposed to be something relatively enjoyable I believe that you are already “too educated” for this person to provide you with any benefit.

Another thing that I am not sure was mentioned are possible upgrade policies. I doubt that this person offers any. Most online retailers offer some. Even if that is not something you are thinking about now, it may be nice to have down the line.

If you want, you can give us your search criteria or even share the 10 diamonds and have PSers provide you with their feedback. We don’t always think alike, but we always have the posters best interest at heart and at no cost!