Round 1.7-2.0 Ideal Cut Ring

[appl3]

Hi everyone, we are deciding between a few rings. The size we wanted is as close to 2 ct as possible $10k budget, needs to be ideally cut. Table 54-57%, crown angle 34-35%, pavilion angle 40.6-41%, depth 61-62.5%, thin/med girdle, no cutlet. I have found the following and need to decide on which is is the best. Since most of the ones I found are J colors, ideally the stone will have some fluorescent to make it whiter.

Can anyone help me pick one? The HCA scores are all below 2 but I don't know which is the best HCA.

Price Size Color Clarity Cut Polish Symmetry FL Measurements Table % Depth % Crown Angle Pavilion Angle Lower Girdles Girdle Thickness GIA:
$8,400 1.7 J SI1 EX EX EX Strong Blue 7.61-7.64X4.75 56 62.4 35 40.6 80 M-ST GIA 2191251805 - HCA 0.9
$8,900 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Very Strong Blue 7.59-7.65X4.77 57 62.5 35.5 40.6 75 M-ST 2195342336 - HCA 1.5
$8,424 1.71 J VS1 EX EX EX Med Blue 7.64-7.66X4.77 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 80 M-ST 1186746545 HCA 1.4
$9,031 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Med Blue 7362-7.66X4.77 56 62.4 35 40.8 75 M-ST 1186647354 HCA 1.6
$10,533 1.7 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.63-7367X4.74 57 62 35 41 80 M-ST 7241927246 HCA 1.4
$10,899 1.74 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.67-7.69X4.78 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 75 M-ST 7286075000 HCA 1.4

Thank you!

 

[Todd Gray]

I assume that you want to maximize the size of the diamond you are buying, since you indicate that you want the diamond to weigh as close to 2.00 carats as possible.

With that in mind, I recommend that you focus on ideal cut diamonds with a total depth between 59 - 61.8% and no deeper than 62% because if the total depth is any deeper than that, you're basically paying for carat weight that is hidden in total depth rather than being visible as outside diameter.

Which means that the majority of the diamonds you are considering are going to look smaller than an ideal cut diamond of the same carat weight that has been cut to tighter proportions...

Can you provide links for the diamonds you are considering?

There is only so much that we can predict about a diamond based on the proportions, it's essentially only one piece of the puzzle and enables us to get an idea as to the potential for light return and the balance of brilliance and dispersion.

Additional data, such as ASET Scope, Ideal Scope, and Hearts & Arrows Scope images enable us to determine the extent to which the diamonds are leaking light, and how evenly the diamonds are reflecting light based on the degree of optical precision which is not included in the grading criteria of the gemological laboratories.

 

[appl3]

Hi, Todd, I got the ideal proportions from beyond the 4 cs. I have seen the 1st one in person it is eye clean even though it is SI1.

I will update the post with the sites, although the certificates are provided above.

Do you have other ideal proportions to add?

Thanks!

 

[appl3]

Hi everyone, we are deciding between a few rings. The size we wanted is as close to 2 ct as possible $10k budget, needs to be ideally cut. Table 54-57%, crown angle 34-35%, pavilion angle 40.6-41%, depth 61-62.5%, thin/med girdle, no cutlet. I have found the following and need to decide on which is is the best. Since most of the ones I found are J colors, ideally the stone will have some fluorescent to make it whiter.

Can anyone help me pick one? The HCA scores are all below 2 but I don't know which is the best HCA.

Please note that I am in NYC and have been looking around in the Diamond District. If anyone has good recommendations of shops to visit, please let me know.

Price Size Color Clarity Cut Polish Symmetry FL Measurements Table % Depth % Crown Angle Pavilion Angle Lower Girdles Girdle Thickness GIA:
$8,400 1.7 J SI1 EX EX EX Strong Blue 7.61-7.64X4.75 56 62.4 35 40.6 80 M-ST GIA 2191251805 - HCA 0.9
https://www.bluenile.com/atransfer.jsp?sourceid=102642&goto=/diamond-details/LD10311898

$8,900 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Very Strong Blue 7.59-7.65X4.77 57 62.5 35.5 40.6 75 M-ST 2195342336 - HCA 1.5
https://www.bluenile.com/atransfer.jsp?sourceid=102642&goto=/diamond-details/LD10464055

$8,424 1.71 J VS1 EX EX EX Med Blue 7.64-7.66X4.77 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 80 M-ST 1186746545 HCA 1.4
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1....gn=201807&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

$9,031 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Med Blue 7362-7.66X4.77 56 62.4 35 40.8 75 M-ST 1186647354 HCA 1.6
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamon...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rarecarat

$10,533 1.7 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.63-7367X4.74 57 62 35 41 80 M-ST 7241927246 HCA 1.4
https://www.ritani.com/diamonds/round-diamond-1-70-Carat-G-color-GIA-certified/D-2FF9HP

$10,899 1.74 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.67-7.69X4.78 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 75 M-ST 7286075000 HCA 1.4
https://www.ritani.com/diamonds/round-diamond-1-74-Carat-G-color-GIA-certified/D-R35NM0

$9,725 1.91 I SI2 EX EX EX None 56 61.9 35 40.8 80 T-ST 5121165678
http://www.diamonddealfinder.com/enquiry.php?id_field=45546

Thank you!

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi, Todd, I got the ideal proportions from beyond the 4 cs. I have seen the 1st one in person it is eye clean even though it is SI1.

I will update the post with the sites, although the certificates are provided above.

Do you have other ideal proportions to add?

Thanks!

The selection criteria that I've relied on for 30+ years is:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 58%
Crown angle between 34.3 - 35.0 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to slightly thick, faceted
Cule: GIA none or AGS pointed.

I prefer AGS graded diamonds which were graded on the light performance grading platform which will provide you with the results of the ASET scan which is comprised of data compiled at multiple stop points, rather than a simple photograph of the diamond taken in the face-up position which will always show the diamond in the best possible light.

I also like the fact that the AGS Laboratory provides the average of the eight measurements taken per section. Whereas the GIA averages those measurements and then rounds many of them off to the nearest half a degree and sometimes as much as 5% (you could drive a truck through that kind of variance).

Imagine the difference between a pavilion depth of 43% and 43.5% or a crown angle of 34.0 degrees and 34.5 degrees (and everything else in between) and you'll see why I prefer the AGS way of doing things...

While we're on the subject, that pavilion depth of 43.5% seems to be the critical tipping point where light begins NOT to strike fully off the pavilion facets...

And finally, I prefer the look of an arrows pattern created by lower girdle facets in the range of 75 - 78% because they appear to be bolder and more vivid. Whereas, lower girdle facets in the range of 80% tend to look thinner and this tends to create sparkle which is smaller in size and less vivid from my perspective.

Here again, the GIA rounds the lower girdle facet length off to the nearest 5% and thus you'll need to visually estimate the length of the lower girdle facets (or ask somebody with more experience to do it) which is why those pictures are so important.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree with most of the numbers Todd gave. The one difference is that I don't limit depth to 61.8. I always set my search parameters to 62.3 as a max, but I do prefer less than 62.

There are plenty of great GIA diamonds out there. You just need an ASET image to confirm.

Of the ones you posted, these have good numbers. (I eliminated the G SI2 stones. I'd look at I VS long before I would pay for SI2 in any color.) If you have a magnified photo or any kind of light return images, I'd like to see them. I also have a preference for the 75 lower girdle facets, but I'd need to see ASET images to know if I'd consider either one.

$8,424 1.71 J VS1 EX EX EX Med Blue 7.64-7.66X4.77 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 80 M-ST 1186746545 HCA 1.4

$9,031 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Med Blue 7362-7.66X4.77 56 62.4 35 40.8 75 M-ST 1186647354 HCA 1.6

 

[Todd Gray]

I agree with most of the numbers Todd gave. The one difference is that I don't limit depth to 61.8. I always set my search parameters to 62.3 as a max, but I do prefer less than 62.

And it's exactly for this reason, that the parameters for the AGS Ideal and GIA Excellent proportions grades incorporate a range much broader than "the sweet spot" that I focus upon...

Everybody has a different idea of what looks good based on their perception and their preferences...

The range that I focus upon tends to produce a high volume of light return with a virtual balance of brilliance (white sparkle) and dispersion (colored sparkle).

Some people may prefer a diamond that exhibits more brilliance, this can often be accomplished with a slightly shallower crown angle, such as 34.0 degrees (but I wouldn't go less than that).

Other people might prefer a diamond that exhibits more dispersion, which can be accomplished with a slightly steeper crown angle, such as 35.5 degrees (but I wouldn't go steeper than that).

Crown angles which are shallower than 34.0 degrees, or steeper than 35.5 degrees, are likely to leak more light and create more obstruction under the table facet. So, make sure to get clarity photographs and reflector scope images (ASET, Ideal Scope, H&A Scope) so that we can judge the degree of optical precision, leakage, obstruction and contrast brilliance.

 

[Todd Gray]

Price Size Color Clarity Cut Polish Symmetry FL Measurements Table % Depth % Crown Angle Pavilion Angle Lower Girdles Girdle Thickness GIA:
$8,400 1.7 J SI1 EX EX EX Strong Blue 7.61-7.64X4.75 56 62.4 35 40.6 80 M-ST GIA 2191251805 - HCA 0.9
$8,900 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Very Strong Blue 7.59-7.65X4.77 57 62.5 35.5 40.6 75 M-ST 2195342336 - HCA 1.5
$8,424 1.71 J VS1 EX EX EX Med Blue 7.64-7.66X4.77 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 80 M-ST 1186746545 HCA 1.4
$9,031 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Med Blue 7362-7.66X4.77 56 62.4 35 40.8 75 M-ST 1186647354 HCA 1.6
$10,533 1.7 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.63-7367X4.74 57 62 35 41 80 M-ST 7241927246 HCA 1.4
$10,899 1.74 G SI2 EX EX EX None 7.67-7.69X4.78 55 62.3 34.5 40.8 75 M-ST 7286075000 HCA 1.4

I took a moment to look these diamonds up based on the information provided.

GIA 2191251805: no additional details available, no photographs provided.

GIA 2195342336: clarity image available. Do you see how dark the diamond appears to be under the table facet? How it's mostly dark brownish-yellow as opposed to being nice and light?

This effect is most likely being created by the combination of the 62.5% total depth and the steeper 35.5 degree crown angle. I'm certain that if we had an ASET or Ideal Scope image for this diamond, that we would see that it is leaking light under the table facet because that tends to go hand-in-hand with this kind of darkness under the table facet.

GIA #1186746545: no additional details available, no photographs provided.

GIA #1186647354: A clarity photograph and Ideal Scope image are provided.

Let's take a look at them and you'll be able to see how the dark regions under the table facet correlate with the light leakage revealed in the Ideal Scope image.

So, here's the clarity photograph:

Notice the dark sections visible under the table facet. Now look at the Ideal Scope image which shows light leakage to some extent all the way around the edge of the table facet (the light pink to translucent areas):

Do you see the correlation? So, we don't really need an Ideal Scope image to know that GIA 2195342336 is leaking light extensively under the table facet, because now you know what to look for

GIA #7241927246: Well, the supplier does provide video and a clarity photograph, but really, they're of absolutely no use. Can anybody tell anything about this diamond from this photograph?


GIA #7286075000: no additional details available, no photographs provided.

So, now you know, why I would never buy a diamond without at least a clarity photograph, and preferably the reflector scope images necessary to determine light performance.

I hope this helps...

 

[appl3]

Hi everyone, thank you for your help.
We had looked at the diamond with the very strong blue and just saw that it turned blue in direct sunlight. We then compared it to a diamond with medium fluorescence and one with none and saw drastic differences. Unfortunately fluoresce is off the table.

There are 2 other ones that we are looking at and want to see what the experts think? Thank you in advance. Which one is better?

The first one: GIA 5263574966 HCA 1.6
https://eternitybyyoni.com/diamond_detail.php?id=2719204&ref=pricescope


The second one: GIA 2287018336

 

[Todd Gray]

Ask the vendors to provide you with ASET, Ideal Scope, and H&A Scope images and post them here so that we can determine the degree of light leakage and optical precision.

The crown angle is a bit steeper than I prefer on one (35.5 degrees) and the 43.5% pavilion depth on the other is a red flag in my book, but the scope images will enable us to determine whether it's actually an issue or of no consequence...

 

[appl3]

Hi Todd, unfortunately I only have those specs. the pic of the diamond is one that i took at the shop. I've found 3 more that may be a fit:

1.71 I SI1 GIA 6281775858
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1....gn=201807&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc


1.71 J SI1 GIA 7296565995
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1....gn=201807&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

1.67 J VS1 GIA 3295375426
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamon...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rarecarat

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi Todd, unfortunately I only have those specs. the pic of the diamond is one that i took at the shop. I've found 3 more that may be a fit:

1.71 I SI1 GIA 6281775858
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1....gn=201807&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

1.71 J SI1 GIA 7296565995
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1....gn=201807&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

1.67 J VS1 GIA 3295375426
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamon...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rarecarat

GIA #6281775858 has proportions within my preferred range. However, it has a knot (included diamond crystal, which breaks the surface) indicated on the plotting diagram along the edge of the diamond within the upper girdle facet in the relative 7 o'clock position, and in the lower half of the diamond, as indicated along the edge of the lower girdle facet in the relative 4 o'clock position.

I automatically rejected for cavities, chips, etch channels, knots, and laser drill holes, because they have the potential to pose durability risks to the longevity of the diamond.

In addition, the clarity image provided by the supplier indicates (what I refer to as) obstruction under the table facet, which I've noticed correlates to leakage when ASET and Ideal Scope images are available:

The presence of light brown along the edge of the table facet is also an indication that there might be light leakage in that zone. Unfortunately, the supplier does not provide reflector scope images, so we can't verify that for certain, but I wouldn't buy this diamond without them.

GIA #7296565995 also has the right proportions, which means you're getting better at this! The video provided by the supplier is not featured on the diamond details page, so here it is for your reference. The diamond appears to be reflecting light better than the preceding one, but there also seems to be a lot of clustering at the base of the arrows and it seems to be making that region of the diamond look a bit muddy in the middle?

GIA #3295375426 doesn't quite meet my proportions, but it's within tolerance. The 40.6 degree pavilion angle should produce a high volume of light return (and the ASET Scope image verifies this to some degree - more on that in a minute) while the 34.0 degree crown angle is likely to produce a hint more brilliance, as opposed to the virtual balance of brilliance and dispersion that is more likely with a crown angle between 34.3 - 35.0 degrees.

There are some light areas visible in the ASET Scope image provided by the supplier, which is provided on the diamond details page, but it's not full blown and thus this is probably the best option of what you've considered thus far.

 

[appl3]

Thank you Todd!

 

[Todd Gray]

Thank you Todd!

Happy to Help

 

[sledge]

I don't think the ASET of the Yadav 1.67 is bad, especially for a GIA XXX. I'm more impressed by the fact you found a stone that has one already loaded to look at, as typically that does not happen on Yadav, BN, etc. unless a customer requests them. And then, depending on the supplier, they may or may not be able to include the image so many times people are buying "blind" on those sites.



That said, you can see leakage (areas that are light colored) around the table.

Also I noticed some of your original options neared the $11k mark. That said, I did a quick search for some super ideals and turned up the following.

You will notice these are less carat weight than the Yadav that was most recently discussed. However, if you look at the dimensions you will notice there is only about 0.10mm difference. It takes about 0.20mm difference for someone with normal vision to discern a difference in size.

So while a stone may have more carat weight, it may not necessarily look bigger to the naked eye. This is very much the case with these stones. Also, with these being super ideals, they will tend to face up larger and brighter than GIA XXX stones, which I think is an advantage for you.

Yadav XXX 1.67ct J VS1 - 7.51 x 7.57mm (for comparison of dimensions only)

WF ACA H&A 1.535ct J VS2 - 7.42 x 7.46mm - $10,128 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3997098.htm

BGD Blue H&A 1.601ct J VS2 - 7.48 x 7.49mm - $10,461 wire
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.601-j-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104100872054

It appears the BGD stone is new, and BGD has not got all the images loaded. Not a big deal at all. Just call Lesley @ BGD and tell her you are interested and would like to see them. She will load ASET and Idealscope on the site, along with actual videos and images (under different lighting conditions). They can and will do a H&A view for you as well; however, on their blue stones you have to request it and they will email it to you directly (they don't post hearts for Blue for whatever reason).

Either way, both stones are true hearts & arrows and super ideal AGS 000 stones. If your budget allows, these will be gorgeous stones that provides all the certifications, images, etc to prove both are performers.

Some great articles advocating why H&A AGS 000 are better than GIA XXX:

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...nefits-of-hearts-and-arrows-diamonds-1521.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/laboratory-cut-grades-what-the.htm

Also, for reference, a screen cap showing ACTUAL DIMENSIONS of the Yadav stone against the WF stone referenced above. FYI, the BGD stone is of similar dimensions and would have similar effects.

 

[sledge]

Also, the upgrade programs at both places are much better than Yadav.

Yadav = spend 2x as much to get full credit
WF = spend $1 more and get full credit
BGD = spend $1 more and upgrade 2 of 3 characteristics: carat, color or clarity and get full credit

 

[appl3]

Hi guys, thanks for your suggestions. We still want to stay in the $10k budget. Got an image from the vendor for one of the diamonds. Any thoughts? Thank you!

 

[sledge]

Hi guys, thanks for your suggestions. We still want to stay in the $10k budget. Got an image from the vendor for one of the diamonds. Any thoughts? Thank you!

Does your $10k include a setting? Or is that for diamond only? Just assumed you had room to move to $11k based on the original list of diamonds you posted.

If diamond only, you do realize the WF stone is $10,128 right?

FYI, the images you posted above are H&A images which show us symmetry. To show us light performance (sparkle) you need an ASET image. It will have red, green and blue in it. But while you are getting H&A images, you keep posting arrows only. Can you post the hearts too? I'm curious how well cut the stone is on the pavilion side.

Initial thoughts are I don't love those angle, but they may work. Here is a chart. An ASET will confirm but looks like 67% chance it will be excellent cut, about about 33% for an ideal cut. That's assuming symmetry and other factors are top notch too.

 

[appl3]

Hey, i got this from the jeweler. He doesn’t have an aset scope, only an Euroscope Symmetry viewer. I will have my ideal scope to check it out. Our budget is $10k all in. We are using a solitaire setting so we can maximize on the diamond price and ideally I want to maximize carat size as well.

Just curious, where is the chart from?

 

[sledge]

Hey, i got this from the jeweler. He doesn’t have an aset scope, only an Euroscope Symmetry viewer. I will have my ideal scope to check it out. Our budget is $10k all in. We are using a solitaire setting so we can maximize on the diamond price and ideally I want to maximize carat size as well.

Just curious, where is the chart from?

The Euroscope Symmetry viewer he refers to is a hearts & arrow (H&A) viewer.

https://www.kassoy.com/assorted-supplies/eroscope-hearts-and-arrows-viewer.asp
https://www.stuller.com/video/watch/55662/

Link to AGS proportions chart:
https://agslab.com/docs/pbcg/AGSLProportionCharts.pdf

FYI, you can get a pretty cheap solitaire setting from WF for about $300-400. That'd put you all in around $10,500 with them. Me personally, I'd do that. But when I set budgets I allow a little wiggle room for stuff like this.

If $10k is your max budget, then I think that first stone at Yadav with the ASET we reviewed earlier was pretty good. It's not perfect, but I think it's still very well cut. What is your expectation on cut?

 

[appl3]

Thank you, yeah we have a solitaire setting. I want the best cut and carat that’s eye clean for my budget. No/faint fluorescent.

 

[sledge]

I will keep looking, it's just tough with that budget. At least you are flexible on color.

I know you mention carat weight but I would advise you to look at dimensions instead. It may sound better to say 1.67ct but when you cannot visually discern a size difference you take the diamond that has the best sparkle, color and fits your budget.

Also don't forget carat weight is a function of volume meaning you take L x W x D. Length and width is in the horizontal plane and visible as size when we see a "big" stone. Depth is in the vertical plane and will not be seen.

So when you get stones relatively close in carat weight (1.535 vs 1.67) there isn't really much difference to begin with and then part of that difference is gobbled up in depth which has no effect on the diamond looking bigger.

As the gaps increase you can see more difference. Also some angles may be more favorable to dimensions than others. For instance when I narrowed down my selection to two stones the heavier carat weight was actually dimensionally smaller -- by very little mind you but still smaller. For many reasons I ended up buying the lighter carat weight with more dimension spread.

I hope you can see what I'm saying as you may miss some good stones if not. Regardless we will help find you what YOU want.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thank you, yeah we have a solitaire setting. I want the best cut and carat that’s eye clean for my budget. No/faint fluorescent.

Do you know what size diameter your setting will fit?

 

[appl3]

2mm. Here is a picture of the ring with the setting we were originally going to buy, however it turned very strong blue in sunlight. So we are back to the drawing board.

 

[Dancing Fire]

2mm. Here is a picture of the ring with the setting we were originally going to buy, however it turned very strong blue in sunlight. So we are back to the drawing board.

What was the diameter of the stone?
btw; The blue color could have been reflections from the blue sky above. I used to own a VSB stone.

 

[appl3]

1.72cts. It turned a deep blue in the sun, even at 5pm, it turned blue outside in the sunlight. We also compared a stone with medium blue and no fluorescent. I can definitely tell the difference

 

[sledge]

1.72cts. It turned a deep blue in the sun, even at 5pm, it turned blue outside in the sunlight. We also compared a stone with medium blue and no fluorescent. I can definitely tell the difference

The dimensions of the stone as asked is different than the carat weight. Dimensions will be reported as something like 7.10mm x 7.10mm x 4.46mm.

1.72 is the carat weight. What are the mm dimensions?

My guess is @Dancing Fire was trying to establish the dimensions of the ring you and your girl previously tried so we would know the dimensions to present you so it looks the same, or larger.

FYI fluor is not necessarily bad. It's only bad on a poorly cut stone where it creates a milky or hazy appearance.

The blue thing is preference. It's no secret under UV light fluor atoms get excited and turn blue. Some love it and others do not. The advantage is it can make lower colored stones appear more white in normal lighting.

 

[appl3]

This was the size and specs for the fluorescent ring: $8,900 1.72 J VS2 EX EX EX Very Strong Blue 7.59-7.65X4.77 57 62.5 35.5 40.6 75 M-ST gia 2195342336 - HCA1.5

 

[appl3]

HI Sledge can you send me the ideal chart for table 56? I am leaning towards the yadav one. Thank you!

 

[sledge]

HI Sledge can you send me the ideal chart for table 56? I am leaning towards the yadav one. Thank you!

Happy to help but the Yadav link takes me to the main search page. I'm thinking it may be sold