Autoimmune Thyroid Disease

[missy]

So just reaching out to see if anyone has any info to share about autoimmune thyroiditis. I am just at the beginning of this journey and have a lot to learn. PSers know so much about so many topics I thought it might be helpful to start a thread about it. And maybe it can be helpful to others who are in similar situations.

My TPO level tested high but all my other thyroid findings (still waiting for the Thyroidglobulin antibody results however and I need a thyroid sonogram) are in the "normal" range. The problem is as I read about this topic the more I realize there is not a whole lot of agreement about this and what constitutes normal and what doesn't and how to treat it.

What I have learned so far:

TPOs at any level are not normal and signal an autoimmune issue. It seems mainstream medicine has not yet embraced this fact unfortunately.

I found this link very helpful.
https://www.restartmed.com/anti-tpo/


If anyone has an info to share I would appreciate it. I don't know anyone IRL who has a similar issue and looking to find out as much real life info as possible. Thanks.

 

[BlingDreams]

I'm dashing out the door for the day but wanted to say that I'm also hypothyroid (not from Hashimotos though). I learned a LOT about the disease and how to effectively treat it from reading articles by Mary Shomon. Be aware that there are a lot of quacks out there who espouse some wacky stuff. Biggest thing I can recommend is work with a holistic practitioner to make sure everything is taken in to account and you're not just judged by your blood work (because really, who cares if your numbers are "in range" if you still feel like crap!), and that they're on the cutting edge of what the research says and not just going by the old protocols/standards. Oh, I'd have them do a 4-point salivary cortisol test too if they haven't already; the adrenal glands can influence thyroid performance and you want to make sure you're treating the right problem.

Hang in there. It's a long, bumpy, and frustrating journey but you can get back to a pretty normal life!

 

[missy]

I'm dashing out the door for the day but wanted to say that I'm also hypothyroid (not from Hashimotos though). I learned a LOT about the disease and how to effectively treat it from reading articles by Mary Shomon. Be aware that there are a lot of quacks out there who espouse some wacky stuff. Biggest thing I can recommend is work with a holistic practitioner to make sure everything is taken in to account and you're not just judged by your blood work (because really, who cares if your numbers are "in range" if you still feel like crap!), and that they're on the cutting edge of what the research says and not just going by the old protocols/standards. Oh, I'd have them do a 4-point salivary cortisol test too if they haven't already; the adrenal glands can influence thyroid performance and you want to make sure you're treating the right problem.

Hang in there. It's a long, bumpy, and frustrating journey but you can get back to a pretty normal life!

Thanks so much ILikeShiny. Going to look up Mary Shomon now. I have been reading Amy Myers and Westin Childs and wondering if what they are writing is true. There is so much to weed through and my (conventional) medical doctors contradict much of what I am reading and I don't know how to tell fact from myth.

I have also been searching for a holistic practitioner and you would think in NYC I could find a good one but not sure how to evaluate who is the right doctor for me. Someone yesterday overheard me speaking with Greg about this in our health food store and she approached me and said she loves her chinese medicine doctor who does acupuncture so I might contact her. However I don't know this woman who approached me so I am just uncertain as what to do.

I don't feel terrible by any means. I feel OK. I have trouble sleeping and I am intolerant to hot and cold (and have been for as long as I remember) and of course I have skin issues and eyebrow hair loss. Could be related but maybe not. I am stable with my weight so that doesn't fit the bill though I don't think one has to have all the criteria to fit into the autoimmune thyroiditis especially if I am at the beginning stages.

The only fact I have right now for sure is my TPO level is elevated and from my reading that constitutes a problem independent of any other findings.

And from my reading I am overwhelmed re diet. Because nuts are a staple of my daily diet and I see that may cause inflammation. That would suck for me because that is the biggest part of my daily intake of food. I love nuts. And I eat lots of fish now (cut out beans due to inflammation potential) and veggies and salad. Very little fruit and no processed foods. I always thought I ate healthfully but after reading so much about this I might be eating horribly for an autoimmune disease. The AIP though is not appealing for me at all and I cannot afford to lose weight. And forget bone broth. I could not eat that no matter what. You know the book "Alive"? Well I would have starved to death without a doubt. :/

I appreciate any advice from you when you get the chance. Thank you so much!

 

[Arcadian]

Very sorry you're dealing with this @missy My doc says I have AI but has not narrowed it down to which one. Unforatunately some can be complicated to diagnose.

 

[missy]

Very sorry you're dealing with this @missy My doc says I have AI but has not narrowed it down to which one. Unforatunately some can be complicated to diagnose.

Aww I am sorry you are dealing with this Arcadian. The more reading and research I do the more complicated and confusing it seems. I am not sure most cases are straightforward from the reading I have done. I just now started reading Mary Shomon who is ILikeShiny's recommendation (thank you @ILikeShiny) and it is certainly a complex diagnosis and treatment and I can see it is critical to find a good healthcare practitioner to partner with in finding help.

I hope your doctor is that partner for you @Arcadian and hope you find relief and successful treatment. If you don't mind it would be helpful if you would chime in and share your experience if and when you are comfortable doing so.

Thanks and (((hugs))).

 

[missy]

Just adding some questions if I may for anyone who has info regarding this.

Supplementation.

Reading some opposing thoughts about iodine. Good for hypothyroid bad for autoimmune thyroiditis (ie Hashimotos etc)

Selenium seems helpful. I don't yet supplement with Selenium or Iodine. I think I will stay away from Iodine unless my doctor says it is OK. I think Iodine could cause an allergic reaction moreso than other supplements.

Zinc, copper, magnesium, D3 are some others (I already take these).

And a few weeks ago I started reading about LDN: the use of the drug low dose naltrexone. However I asked my physician and she never heard of it. Might just be approved in Canada and Europe. Does anyone know anything about LDN. Really seems a promising treatment for many autoimmune conditions.

Then also the question of the adrenals comes into play but I have to read about that as I know 0 about the adrenals.

 

[lyra]

I'm sorry Missy. I don't have anything to add. I have multiple auto immune diseases and I seem to have passed on the genetic marker to my daughters. One had a thyroid issue and she was on synthroid for over a year only to find the "problem" disappeared completely. She has other auto immune issues. Good luck.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I am sorry you're dealing with this, missy. Unfortunately I have absolutely nothing helpful to add, so just sending dust!

 

[mary poppins]

And a few weeks ago I started reading about LDN: the use of the drug low dose naltrexone. However I asked my physician and she never heard of it. Might just be approved in Canada and Europe. Does anyone know anything about LDN. Really seems a promising treatment for many autoimmune conditions.

Sorry to hear you're having problems, Missy. LDN is available in the US. Members of groups for two autoimmune diseases I have take it and say it's helpful and they are in the US.

I hope your doctors figure out what's wrong soon so you can move on to treatment, natural and/or with meds.

 

[Ally T]

Dust to you that they figure out what exactly is going on, and soon. I know you've been struggling with painful skin issues for such a long time, so some answers & adjustment I expect will be very welcome!

 

[Gussie]

I started feeling pretty fatigued about 6 or so years ago and my thyroid test was just a bit off so my doctor put me on synthroid. He said generic was fine so that's what I took. I felt ok, not great, not terrible. Then about 3 years ago I was so tired in the afternoons that I couldn't focus. I never ate anything all day because 15 minutes after I ate I literally couldn't keep my eyes open. I only ate one meal at night because all food (healthy or junky) just zapped my energy. And my back hurt like crazy. My doctor tested my thyroid again and the TSH level was just low enough that he wouldn't do further testing or increase my meds. So I finally went to an endocrinologist. She put me on a higher dosage of name brand synthroid and cytomel to target both T3 and T4. I tested positive for hashimoto's as well. Since I have been on the meds, I have energy, I can eat, no more aches in my back. Hair and nails are thick and healthy. Not exaggerating when I say my life improved dramatically!

 

[Tekate]

Missy, I don't know anything about thyroids etc, but I know you a bit and I will keep watch on how things are going... sending a huge hug and dust for you.

kate

So just reaching out to see if anyone has any info to share about autoimmune thyroiditis. I am just at the beginning of this journey and have a lot to learn. PSers know so much about so many topics I thought it might be helpful to start a thread about it. And maybe it can be helpful to others who are in similar situations.

My TPO level tested high but all my other thyroid findings (still waiting for the Thyroidglobulin antibody results however and I need a thyroid sonogram) are in the "normal" range. The problem is as I read about this topic the more I realize there is not a whole lot of agreement about this and what constitutes normal and what doesn't and how to treat it.

What I have learned so far:

TPOs at any level are not normal and signal an autoimmune issue. It seems mainstream medicine has not yet embraced this fact unfortunately.

I found this link very helpful.
https://www.restartmed.com/anti-tpo/


If anyone has an info to share I would appreciate it. I don't know anyone IRL who has a similar issue and looking to find out as much real life info as possible. Thanks.

 

[ksinger]

Just adding some questions if I may for anyone who has info regarding this.

Supplementation.

Reading some opposing thoughts about iodine. Good for hypothyroid bad for autoimmune thyroiditis (ie Hashimotos etc)

Selenium seems helpful. I don't yet supplement with Selenium or Iodine. I think I will stay away from Iodine unless my doctor says it is OK. I think Iodine could cause an allergic reaction moreso than other supplements.

Zinc, copper, magnesium, D3 are some others (I already take these).

And a few weeks ago I started reading about LDN: the use of the drug low dose naltrexone. However I asked my physician and she never heard of it. Might just be approved in Canada and Europe. Does anyone know anything about LDN. Really seems a promising treatment for many autoimmune conditions.

Then also the question of the adrenals comes into play but I have to read about that as I know 0 about the adrenals.

Neuros pretty much roll their eyes at mention of LDN.

Honestly, there is very little really good research on LDN, for anything. It's generic and no one can make a killing off of it, so... And quite frankly, it's the latest incarnation of the "wonder med" - pretty much said to be good for whatever ails ya.

It's flogged pretty hard for fibromyalgia. I got my rheumatologist to prescribe it and took it for that for several years, and felt better. (Doesn't seem to do anything these days) But how you feel is about as subjective as it gets, and also the measure most susceptible to being placebo effect. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for a good placebo, but LDN simply can't do all the stuff people think it can. No med can.

LDN is also desperately taken by many people with MS, hoping that it will slow or reverse their MS. Um, nope. Not to mention the fact that I took if for about 4 years prior to my MS diagnosis, but got the diagnosis anyway.

You can try it, and it very likely won't hurt anything, but try to be realistic in what your expectations are. Or not. Maybe big expectations will heal you up for a long while. Oh, and I found that getting it compounded was a bit of a headache, but that's what you'll have to do if you decide to go that route.

Best of luck Missy. I know exactly how it is to wonder just what the heck is wrong with you and to do the rounds trying to figure it out. Oh HOW I do.

 

[Bron357]

Yes, I’m a sufferer re autoimmune Thyroid failure ie Hashimotos. I had Graves’ disease (overactive thyroid) in my twenties which after 2 years treatment resolved itself (very rare).
Then when I fell pregnant with my daughter (late thirties) my antibodies destroyed my thyroid function. I have been taking medication since. I am now 57.
There is no “herbal” supplement that can replace correctly the thyroid hormone. You have to take Thyroxine.
What you also have to watch is your Calicum level, as osteoporosis is a possible side effect of low thyroid function.
Poor skin, thinning hair, tiredness, weight gain, feeling the cold are all indications of less than sufficient Thyroid levels.
Taking supplements can assist your overall health, but you cannot get the necessary Thyroxine from food or herbal concoctions.
People take natural Thyroxine from Pigs (I believe) but that it’s not available here in Australia so I’m taking the synthetic variety.
Since my Thyroid failure I have not been able to keep my weight down. I was an elite athlete in my youth and very slim and fit until after my pregnancy. Since then (and thanks to early menopause) my weight has just ballooned. Very upsetting but unfortunately just how it is for me. My overall health is reasonable and I don’t give it much thought these days.

 

[Gussie]

I almost forgot to mention this. When my thyroid was really out of whack I was in the process of consultation of having an eyelid lift. My ps had recommended a blephroplasty and a short scar mini facelift, which is not nearly as a big of a deal as it sounds. Just a slight "cheek lift". Well, between my consult and the pre-op appointment I began the thyroid meds. By the time he saw me just before surgery he didn't think I still needed the mini facelift. I was so puffy due to thyroid issues when he initially saw me. Getting my thyroid balanced has done a lot for so many subtle issues I had!

 

[missy]

I'm sorry Missy. I don't have anything to add. I have multiple auto immune diseases and I seem to have passed on the genetic marker to my daughters. One had a thyroid issue and she was on synthroid for over a year only to find the "problem" disappeared completely. She has other auto immune issues. Good luck.

Hi Lyra, thanks for your good wishes. I am sorry you and your dd are dealing with auto immune issues. Sending you hugs and lots of good wishes.

I am sorry you're dealing with this, missy. Unfortunately I have absolutely nothing helpful to add, so just sending dust!

Aww thanks sweet Kipari. I appreciate that.

Sorry to hear you're having problems, Missy. LDN is available in the US. Members of groups for two autoimmune diseases I have take it and say it's helpful and they are in the US.

I hope your doctors figure out what's wrong soon so you can move on to treatment, natural and/or with meds.

Thank you for that info mary poppins. Much appreciated. My friend (who lives in Canada) swears by it for her autoimmune diseases (of which she has so many) and I am so happy it is helping her. Of course we are all different but it is a game changer for her. She has been suffering for over 3 decades and it is like she is a new person.

Dust to you that they figure out what exactly is going on, and soon. I know you've been struggling with painful skin issues for such a long time, so some answers & adjustment I expect will be very welcome!

Thank you dear Alex. Yanno I don't think this issue is linked. It is just a gut feeling I have but we will see. I think this was picked up coincidentally and I am not sure I should be on any meds for it. I feel OK (besides the skin and eyebrow issue). It's just researching etc it seems if one waits too long the thyroid can be destroyed vs treating it now. Yet OTOH research shows there is no good treatment at all. LOL giving me a headache. But if this would provide any relief for my other issues that would be awesome. Thank you.

I started feeling pretty fatigued about 6 or so years ago and my thyroid test was just a bit off so my doctor put me on synthroid. He said generic was fine so that's what I took. I felt ok, not great, not terrible. Then about 3 years ago I was so tired in the afternoons that I couldn't focus. I never ate anything all day because 15 minutes after I ate I literally couldn't keep my eyes open. I only ate one meal at night because all food (healthy or junky) just zapped my energy. And my back hurt like crazy. My doctor tested my thyroid again and the TSH level was just low enough that he wouldn't do further testing or increase my meds. So I finally went to an endocrinologist. She put me on a higher dosage of name brand synthroid and cytomel to target both T3 and T4. I tested positive for hashimoto's as well. Since I have been on the meds, I have energy, I can eat, no more aches in my back. Hair and nails are thick and healthy. Not exaggerating when I say my life improved dramatically!

I almost forgot to mention this. When my thyroid was really out of whack I was in the process of consultation of having an eyelid lift. My ps had recommended a blephroplasty and a short scar mini facelift, which is not nearly as a big of a deal as it sounds. Just a slight "cheek lift". Well, between my consult and the pre-op appointment I began the thyroid meds. By the time he saw me just before surgery he didn't think I still needed the mini facelift. I was so puffy due to thyroid issues when he initially saw me. Getting my thyroid balanced has done a lot for so many subtle issues I had!

Oh Ceg, YAY! How wonderful and I am so glad you experienced such a dramatic improvement! And thank goodness you didn't go ahead with the eye surgery.
Really thrilled it worked out so well for you and thank you for sharing with me/us.

Missy, I don't know anything about thyroids etc, but I know you a bit and I will keep watch on how things are going... sending a huge hug and dust for you.

kate

Awww Kate thank you sweetheart. You are a dear and I appreciate your good wishes and hugs and big (((hugs))) back at ya. XOXO.

Neuros pretty much roll their eyes at mention of LDN.

Honestly, there is very little really good research on LDN, for anything. It's generic and no one can make a killing off of it, so... And quite frankly, it's the latest incarnation of the "wonder med" - pretty much said to be good for whatever ails ya.

It's flogged pretty hard for fibromyalgia. I got my rheumatologist to prescribe it and took it for that for several years, and felt better. (Doesn't seem to do anything these days) But how you feel is about as subjective as it gets, and also the measure most susceptible to being placebo effect. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for a good placebo, but LDN simply can't do all the stuff people think it can. No med can.

LDN is also desperately taken by many people with MS, hoping that it will slow or reverse their MS. Um, nope. Not to mention the fact that I took if for about 4 years prior to my MS diagnosis, but got the diagnosis anyway.

You can try it, and it very likely won't hurt anything, but try to be realistic in what your expectations are. Or not. Maybe big expectations will heal you up for a long while. Oh, and I found that getting it compounded was a bit of a headache, but that's what you'll have to do if you decide to go that route.

Best of luck Missy. I know exactly how it is to wonder just what the heck is wrong with you and to do the rounds trying to figure it out. Oh HOW I do.

Thank you Karen. I know you have been through quite the medical roller coaster and that it continues to be challenging. I am sorry. There are some things that just suck no matter what you do. Here the doctors I have asked (so far) have not heard of LDN. I am aware that it is not the miracle cure though for my good friend it has been and I hope that continues for her. I doubt any doctor here is going to be wiling to let me try it for my symptoms which are minimal at this point and I hope they continue to be minimal. It is frustrating not knowing exactly what is wrong and everything being a "mystery" illness. How can I be treated with the correct treatment if I don't have the correct diagnosis. But such is the life of a patient while still looking for the diagnosis.
Hope you are finding relief and thank you for chiming in. I hope your SIL is doing OK.

Yes, I’m a sufferer re autoimmune Thyroid failure ie Hashimotos. I had Graves’ disease (overactive thyroid) in my twenties which after 2 years treatment resolved itself (very rare).
Then when I fell pregnant with my daughter (late thirties) my antibodies destroyed my thyroid function. I have been taking medication since. I am now 57.
There is no “herbal” supplement that can replace correctly the thyroid hormone. You have to take Thyroxine.
What you also have to watch is your Calicum level, as osteoporosis is a possible side effect of low thyroid function.
Poor skin, thinning hair, tiredness, weight gain, feeling the cold are all indications of less than sufficient Thyroid levels.
Taking supplements can assist your overall health, but you cannot get the necessary Thyroxine from food or herbal concoctions.
People take natural Thyroxine from Pigs (I believe) but that it’s not available here in Australia so I’m taking the synthetic variety.
Since my Thyroid failure I have not been able to keep my weight down. I was an elite athlete in my youth and very slim and fit until after my pregnancy. Since then (and thanks to early menopause) my weight has just ballooned. Very upsetting but unfortunately just how it is for me. My overall health is reasonable and I don’t give it much thought these days.

Hi Bron, I am sorry you still have symptoms from which you cannot find relief but glad your overall health is good. Thanks for that info. Online it seems there are so many herbal supplements etc that one can take for thyroid improvement and it is hard separating the truth from the BS. What you shared makes sense and I appreciate you sharing it.

 

[jaaron]

Ah, Missy, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. As I mentioned previously, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's a very long time ago, and then with hypothyroidism shortly after the birth of my first child.

I'm really sorry I'm, as usual, short on time right now, but a few quick thoughts.

1. Endocrinologists as a group are not the most cutting edge practitioners. They seem to be adhere to some fairly archaic dogma when it comes to treatment. My own belief is that the majority of them know a lot about diabetes and not much about thyroid function other than the textbook stuff they learned in medical school. I have actually had responses from endos over the years that floored me - one (a 70-something man) who told me I couldn't possibly have a thyroid issue because I was thin, and one (a sixtyish woman) who told me that sometimes with thyroid issues you have to work on acceptance that you'll never really feel right again. I walked out of both their offices and never went back.

2. If there is one thing you MUST do it's to find an endo who treats the patient rather than the numbers. IMO, the numbers only tell a very limited portion of the story.

3. If I had this to do over, I would most definitely have gotten someone to put me on a small dose of thyroid hormone as soon as the antibodies were found. I know some doctors even now don't like to treat subclinical hypothyroidism, but I think they're wrong. It's only common sense that the more your thyroid is in overdrive trying to keep everything ticking along, the more antibodies it's going to make.

4. There's a vast array of anecdotal stuff out there (sadly, probably more of that than of good, evidence-based studies), which is not to say it's necessarily wrong, but which is to say, it takes a lot of wading through and trying to sort out. I haven't come across anything too convincing on LDN and a lot of people report very disturbed sleep, which I suspect is the last thing most thyroid patients need.

5. Diet and supplementation are very fraught subjects, and, I suspect, very individual. I've been gluten-free, dairy-free and/or nightshade-free for long periods and it made no difference either to how I felt, to my thyroid function or to my antibody levels. I believe there is some decent evidence that soy might not be beneficial to thyroid antibodies, so I avoid it, and that very low carbohydrate diets aren't particularly helpful. I tend to be a somewhat careful eater by nature, I think, and eat fresh and organic as much as possible, but I do eat everything. I take a probiotic, have some fermented vegetables every day, most days have either some kefir or kombucha. As supplements, I take vitamin D, (and because they're anti-inflammatories), turmeric with piperine, magnesium and fish oil). It's also important to make sure your iron levels and ferritin stores are good. I have a couple of Brazil nuts every day (for selenium and for the square of dark chocolate I have with them ) and I take a very small dose (.5 mg) of melatonin every night as there is a small but high quality study that MS patients have fewer symptoms with high levels of melatonin- I'm slightly suspicious of the content of a lot of it, so get it by prescription.

5. If you have thyroid issues and are having other hard to pinpoint, vague or otherwise confusing symptoms, doctors will tend to forget that old saying about 'when you hear hoofbeats, don't look for zebras' and will spend a lot of time sending you for tests and explaining why your symptom can't possibly by thyroid-related. They. Are. Wrong. If I were to list the symptoms I have had over the years that were absolutely, positively, definitely, totally not thyroid-related that all disappeared the minute I got my thyroid levels right, it would be a very long list indeed (see point 1 about the fact that most endocrinologists don't really know all that much about thyroid function).

6. Run, don't walk, away from any endo who doesn't test your T3 levels.

7. Synthetic thyroid hormone is not the answer for everyone. Many people (me included) do much, much, much better on naturally desiccated thyroid products. They're prescription only, but GPs and endos don't like to prescribe them much- if that's what you want or think you need, keep looking for a doctor who is sympathetic to that.

8. Have you had your hormone levels checked? Times of drastically changing hormones - pregnancy, postpartum, peri-menopause, menopause seem to be times where thyroid issues are triggered.

9. Have you been tested for Lyme Disease? I've always been convinced that's what triggered mine.

10. It's completely possible to live a totally full and normal life with this.

 

[mary poppins]

I just looked a little more at one of my online groups and those who have taken LDN with success say it helps them with joint and muscle pain and fatigue. Some who didn't tolerate it well reported sleepiness or sleep disturbance from vivid dreams. A couple websites they link to are:
https://www.ldnresearchtrust.org/
https://www.ldnscience.org/ (has doctor locator)

I don't have any personal experience with LDN. Poking around a little more I see it seems to be a relatively new autoimmune treatment and somewhat controversial. Autoimmune treatments are often an issue of trial and error that requires personal research as many have undesirable short and long term side effects. There are also plenty of quacks and snake oil salesmen peddling nonsense to people who are desperate for relief. Knowing your personality online, I'm sure you will do your due diligence.

ETA: Glad to hear you friend in Canada found something that helps her!

 

[Gussie]

Ah, Missy, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. As I mentioned previously, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's a very long time ago, and then with hypothyroidism shortly after the birth of my first child.

I'm really sorry I'm, as usual, short on time right now, but a few quick thoughts.

1. Endocrinologists as a group are not the most cutting edge practitioners. They seem to be adhere to some fairly archaic dogma when it comes to treatment. My own belief is that the majority of them know a lot about diabetes and not much about thyroid function other than the textbook stuff they learned in medical school. I have actually had responses from endos over the years that floored me - one (a 70-something man) who told me I couldn't possibly have a thyroid issue because I was thin, and one (a sixtyish woman) who told me that sometimes with thyroid issues you have to work on acceptance that you'll never really feel right again. I walked out of both their offices and never went back.

2. If there is one thing you MUST do it's to find an endo who treats the patient rather than the numbers. IMO, the numbers only tell a very limited portion of the story.

3. If I had this to do over, I would most definitely have gotten someone to put me on a small dose of thyroid hormone as soon as the antibodies were found. I know some doctors even now don't like to treat subclinical hypothyroidism, but I think they're wrong. It's only common sense that the more your thyroid is in overdrive trying to keep everything ticking along, the more antibodies it's going to make.

4. There's a vast array of anecdotal stuff out there (sadly, probably more of that than of good, evidence-based studies), which is not to say it's necessarily wrong, but which is to say, it takes a lot of wading through and trying to sort out. I haven't come across anything too convincing on LDN and a lot of people report very disturbed sleep, which I suspect is the last thing most thyroid patients need.

5. Diet and supplementation are very fraught subjects, and, I suspect, very individual. I've been gluten-free, dairy-free and/or nightshade-free for long periods and it made no difference either to how I felt, to my thyroid function or to my antibody levels. I believe there is some decent evidence that soy might not be beneficial to thyroid antibodies, so I avoid it, and that very low carbohydrate diets aren't particularly helpful. I tend to be a somewhat careful eater by nature, I think, and eat fresh and organic as much as possible, but I do eat everything. I take a probiotic, have some fermented vegetables every day, most days have either some kefir or kombucha. As supplements, I take vitamin D, (and because they're anti-inflammatories), turmeric with piperine, magnesium and fish oil). It's also important to make sure your iron levels and ferritin stores are good. I have a couple of Brazil nuts every day (for selenium and for the square of dark chocolate I have with them ) and I take a very small dose (.5 mg) of melatonin every night as there is a small but high quality study that MS patients have fewer symptoms with high levels of melatonin- I'm slightly suspicious of the content of a lot of it, so get it by prescription.

5. If you have thyroid issues and are having other hard to pinpoint, vague or otherwise confusing symptoms, doctors will tend to forget that old saying about 'when you hear hoofbeats, don't look for zebras' and will spend a lot of time sending you for tests and explaining why your symptom can't possibly by thyroid-related. They. Are. Wrong. If I were to list the symptoms I have had over the years that were absolutely, positively, definitely, totally not thyroid-related that all disappeared the minute I got my thyroid levels right, it would be a very long list indeed (see point 1 about the fact that most endocrinologists don't really know all that much about thyroid function).

6. Run, don't walk, away from any endo who doesn't test your T3 levels.

7. Synthetic thyroid hormone is not the answer for everyone. Many people (me included) do much, much, much better on naturally desiccated thyroid products. They're prescription only, but GPs and endos don't like to prescribe them much- if that's what you want or think you need, keep looking for a doctor who is sympathetic to that.

8. Have you had your hormone levels checked? Times of drastically changing hormones - pregnancy, postpartum, peri-menopause, menopause seem to be times where thyroid issues are triggered.

9. Have you been tested for Lyme Disease? I've always been convinced that's what triggered mine.

10. It's completely possible to live a totally full and normal life with this.

This times a million! Describes my situation almost to a tee! Treat the patient and her symptoms not the numbers!!!!!!

 

[ksinger]

With the usual caveats, this video is what sent me on the LDN journey. As I said, it seemed to work for me at reducing pain, for several years. I have no idea if it was the med, or placebo. Considering that I wasn't using it to try to cure cancer or displace a proven treatment, and its side-effect profile at the levels indicated by the "low" part of the name, are very tolerable by most, I'm not sure it matters all that much. Feeling better can be pretty darn huge when you feel like hammered crap.

Unless you want to get a lecture on fibromyalgia, and if you'd just like to watch the part on LDN, watch from about the 40 minute mark, to around 55 minutes. That should cover everything.

The second study he mentions that will be in the future (the video is from 2009) was done in 2012, as I recall, with similar results and some....concerning stuff about placebos again. I'd have to dig it out of the web and just don't have it right now.

 

[caf]

Just adding some questions if I may for anyone who has info regarding this.

Supplementation.

Reading some opposing thoughts about iodine. Good for hypothyroid bad for autoimmune thyroiditis (ie Hashimotos etc)

Selenium seems helpful. I don't yet supplement with Selenium or Iodine. I think I will stay away from Iodine unless my doctor says it is OK. I think Iodine could cause an allergic reaction moreso than other supplements.

Zinc, copper, magnesium, D3 are some others (I already take these).

And a few weeks ago I started reading about LDN: the use of the drug low dose naltrexone. However I asked my physician and she never heard of it. Might just be approved in Canada and Europe. Does anyone know anything about LDN. Really seems a promising treatment for many autoimmune conditions.

Then also the question of the adrenals comes into play but I have to read about that as I know 0 about the adrenals.

Missy - I know some about LDN. I have RA and my doctor was considering letting me try it when my pain and inflammation was through the roof. But I had neck surgery last summer and that helped reduce some of my pain. So I put off the LDN. In addition to RA, I have Hashimotos and take synthroid and cytomel for it. I also take many of the supplements you mentioned, in addition to RA drugs, steroids, etc. I know with LDN it is very very low dose . And for some people it is a life saver. Happy to see if I can dig up what my dr sent me - about LDN - and share with you, if I can find it. Let me know if you want me to look. Oh and sorry you are going through this - it sucks!

CAF

 

[missy]

Ah, Missy, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. As I mentioned previously, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's a very long time ago, and then with hypothyroidism shortly after the birth of my first child.

I'm really sorry I'm, as usual, short on time right now, but a few quick thoughts.

1. Endocrinologists as a group are not the most cutting edge practitioners. They seem to be adhere to some fairly archaic dogma when it comes to treatment. My own belief is that the majority of them know a lot about diabetes and not much about thyroid function other than the textbook stuff they learned in medical school. I have actually had responses from endos over the years that floored me - one (a 70-something man) who told me I couldn't possibly have a thyroid issue because I was thin, and one (a sixtyish woman) who told me that sometimes with thyroid issues you have to work on acceptance that you'll never really feel right again. I walked out of both their offices and never went back.

2. If there is one thing you MUST do it's to find an endo who treats the patient rather than the numbers. IMO, the numbers only tell a very limited portion of the story.

3. If I had this to do over, I would most definitely have gotten someone to put me on a small dose of thyroid hormone as soon as the antibodies were found. I know some doctors even now don't like to treat subclinical hypothyroidism, but I think they're wrong. It's only common sense that the more your thyroid is in overdrive trying to keep everything ticking along, the more antibodies it's going to make.

4. There's a vast array of anecdotal stuff out there (sadly, probably more of that than of good, evidence-based studies), which is not to say it's necessarily wrong, but which is to say, it takes a lot of wading through and trying to sort out. I haven't come across anything too convincing on LDN and a lot of people report very disturbed sleep, which I suspect is the last thing most thyroid patients need.

5. Diet and supplementation are very fraught subjects, and, I suspect, very individual. I've been gluten-free, dairy-free and/or nightshade-free for long periods and it made no difference either to how I felt, to my thyroid function or to my antibody levels. I believe there is some decent evidence that soy might not be beneficial to thyroid antibodies, so I avoid it, and that very low carbohydrate diets aren't particularly helpful. I tend to be a somewhat careful eater by nature, I think, and eat fresh and organic as much as possible, but I do eat everything. I take a probiotic, have some fermented vegetables every day, most days have either some kefir or kombucha. As supplements, I take vitamin D, (and because they're anti-inflammatories), turmeric with piperine, magnesium and fish oil). It's also important to make sure your iron levels and ferritin stores are good. I have a couple of Brazil nuts every day (for selenium and for the square of dark chocolate I have with them ) and I take a very small dose (.5 mg) of melatonin every night as there is a small but high quality study that MS patients have fewer symptoms with high levels of melatonin- I'm slightly suspicious of the content of a lot of it, so get it by prescription.

5. If you have thyroid issues and are having other hard to pinpoint, vague or otherwise confusing symptoms, doctors will tend to forget that old saying about 'when you hear hoofbeats, don't look for zebras' and will spend a lot of time sending you for tests and explaining why your symptom can't possibly by thyroid-related. They. Are. Wrong. If I were to list the symptoms I have had over the years that were absolutely, positively, definitely, totally not thyroid-related that all disappeared the minute I got my thyroid levels right, it would be a very long list indeed (see point 1 about the fact that most endocrinologists don't really know all that much about thyroid function).

6. Run, don't walk, away from any endo who doesn't test your T3 levels.

7. Synthetic thyroid hormone is not the answer for everyone. Many people (me included) do much, much, much better on naturally desiccated thyroid products. They're prescription only, but GPs and endos don't like to prescribe them much- if that's what you want or think you need, keep looking for a doctor who is sympathetic to that.

8. Have you had your hormone levels checked? Times of drastically changing hormones - pregnancy, postpartum, peri-menopause, menopause seem to be times where thyroid issues are triggered.

9. Have you been tested for Lyme Disease? I've always been convinced that's what triggered mine.

10. It's completely possible to live a totally full and normal life with this.

Jaaron, thank you so much for your detailed response. I am sorry you had such a long challenging journey but so happy for you that you finally found the right doctors to team up with you for good health.

You have clarified a few things for me and it is a timely post as I am seeing a new endocrinologist today. I agree completely about most of them not being cutting edge and I don't think this one will be different but I just want to get some blood tests that the other doctor didn't do (thanks for your input there too) and see what the results are and take it from there.

Why is it most endocrinologists don't like to prescribe the naturally desiccated thyroid products? I have a feeling I am in for a fight and have been searching for more open minded doctors. It isn't as easy to find them as one would think in NYC.

My hormone levels have been checked by my Derm David but I am in menopause (have been for 4 years now) so not sure how that will change the evaluation of the hormone results. I hope the endocrinologist is knowledgeable about that. I have been reading and researching but not absorbing everything yet.

Thanks for sharing your diet with me and it is a bit of a relief to read that you are not sure much of it has made a real difference. I feel similarly. Except for dairy due to my rosacea. Dairy flares that for sure. I have been dairy free, gluten free, etc and I am not sure most of these dietary restrictions have made a difference for me either. But I will faithfully keep to it for now. My question is do I have to give up almonds, walnuts, cashews etc and I sure hope I do not. I know I could do an elimination diet but I don't want to right now. I am not looking to lose weight and if I give up nuts I think I would. Like you I don't fit the profile completely of hypothyroid. I love your analogy of hoofbeats and zebras.

I take Vitamin D3 (have since 2006) and my D levels are in the 70s. I eat fermented veggies (since 2014) and supplement with magnesium, B6, B12 and K2. You need K2 with D3. I have to look into Selenium. Greg is allergic to Brazil nuts but he has given his OK for me to buy them and keep them away from him. Or I could just take supplement so will think about that one. Thanks for the info re iron and ferritin and will ask to be tested today.


What are your thoughts on iodine supplementation? I read that for autoimmune thyroid issues it could be harmful but I am on a salt restricted diet so I might be deficient in iodine and will ask the doctor today if she can test me for that.

In the past I was tested for Lyme. I know there is a lot of false negative with that test so not sure it is worth getting tested again especially because I think if I throw too much at her she might tune out to my other requests. I will see how it goes today though because that is a good suggestion.


And if you know of a good endocrinologist in NYC please let me know. Finding the right doctor seems as challenging as getting the right diagnosis.
Thanks Jaaron for sharing all the helpful info. I really appreciate it.

 

[missy]

I just looked a little more at one of my online groups and those who have taken LDN with success say it helps them with joint and muscle pain and fatigue. Some who didn't tolerate it well reported sleepiness or sleep disturbance from vivid dreams. A couple websites they link to are:
https://www.ldnresearchtrust.org/
https://www.ldnscience.org/ (has doctor locator)

I don't have any personal experience with LDN. Poking around a little more I see it seems to be a relatively new autoimmune treatment and somewhat controversial. Autoimmune treatments are often an issue of trial and error that requires personal research as many have undesirable short and long term side effects. There are also plenty of quacks and snake oil salesmen peddling nonsense to people who are desperate for relief. Knowing your personality online, I'm sure you will do your due diligence.

ETA: Glad to hear you friend in Canada found something that helps her!

Thanks so much @mary poppins.

With the usual caveats, this video is what sent me on the LDN journey. As I said, it seemed to work for me at reducing pain, for several years. I have no idea if it was the med, or placebo. Considering that I wasn't using it to try to cure cancer or displace a proven treatment, and its side-effect profile at the levels indicated by the "low" part of the name, are very tolerable by most, I'm not sure it matters all that much. Feeling better can be pretty darn huge when you feel like hammered crap.

Unless you want to get a lecture on fibromyalgia, and if you'd just like to watch the part on LDN, watch from about the 40 minute mark, to around 55 minutes. That should cover everything.

The second study he mentions that will be in the future (the video is from 2009) was done in 2012, as I recall, with similar results and some....concerning stuff about placebos again. I'd have to dig it out of the web and just don't have it right now.

Thank you Karen for the video. I will watch it later. Appreciate you sharing it.
Are you not taking LDN anymore? I am glad it reduced pain for you at least for a few years.

Missy - I know some about LDN. I have RA and my doctor was considering letting me try it when my pain and inflammation was through the roof. But I had neck surgery last summer and that helped reduce some of my pain. So I put off the LDN. In addition to RA, I have Hashimotos and take synthroid and cytomel for it. I also take many of the supplements you mentioned, in addition to RA drugs, steroids, etc. I know with LDN it is very very low dose . And for some people it is a life saver. Happy to see if I can dig up what my dr sent me - about LDN - and share with you, if I can find it. Let me know if you want me to look. Oh and sorry you are going through this - it sucks!

CAF

Hi @caf, thank you for chiming in. Sorry you have RA and glad your neck surgery reduced the pain. Yes I would appreciate if you could find the info you have about LDN. My mom has RA and I can pretty much guarantee none of her doctors even mentioned LDN to her. Also would you mind sharing what supplements you take at what doses? I know we are all different but it is helpful to have a starting point and see what others who have similar conditions are taking. Glad you have your conditions under control and thanks so much for your post.

 

[BlingDreams]

Ah, Missy, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. As I mentioned previously, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's a very long time ago, and then with hypothyroidism shortly after the birth of my first child.

I'm really sorry I'm, as usual, short on time right now, but a few quick thoughts.

1. Endocrinologists as a group are not the most cutting edge practitioners. They seem to be adhere to some fairly archaic dogma when it comes to treatment. My own belief is that the majority of them know a lot about diabetes and not much about thyroid function other than the textbook stuff they learned in medical school. I have actually had responses from endos over the years that floored me - one (a 70-something man) who told me I couldn't possibly have a thyroid issue because I was thin, and one (a sixtyish woman) who told me that sometimes with thyroid issues you have to work on acceptance that you'll never really feel right again. I walked out of both their offices and never went back.

2. If there is one thing you MUST do it's to find an endo who treats the patient rather than the numbers. IMO, the numbers only tell a very limited portion of the story.

3. If I had this to do over, I would most definitely have gotten someone to put me on a small dose of thyroid hormone as soon as the antibodies were found. I know some doctors even now don't like to treat subclinical hypothyroidism, but I think they're wrong. It's only common sense that the more your thyroid is in overdrive trying to keep everything ticking along, the more antibodies it's going to make.

4. There's a vast array of anecdotal stuff out there (sadly, probably more of that than of good, evidence-based studies), which is not to say it's necessarily wrong, but which is to say, it takes a lot of wading through and trying to sort out. I haven't come across anything too convincing on LDN and a lot of people report very disturbed sleep, which I suspect is the last thing most thyroid patients need.

5. Diet and supplementation are very fraught subjects, and, I suspect, very individual. I've been gluten-free, dairy-free and/or nightshade-free for long periods and it made no difference either to how I felt, to my thyroid function or to my antibody levels. I believe there is some decent evidence that soy might not be beneficial to thyroid antibodies, so I avoid it, and that very low carbohydrate diets aren't particularly helpful. I tend to be a somewhat careful eater by nature, I think, and eat fresh and organic as much as possible, but I do eat everything. I take a probiotic, have some fermented vegetables every day, most days have either some kefir or kombucha. As supplements, I take vitamin D, (and because they're anti-inflammatories), turmeric with piperine, magnesium and fish oil). It's also important to make sure your iron levels and ferritin stores are good. I have a couple of Brazil nuts every day (for selenium and for the square of dark chocolate I have with them ) and I take a very small dose (.5 mg) of melatonin every night as there is a small but high quality study that MS patients have fewer symptoms with high levels of melatonin- I'm slightly suspicious of the content of a lot of it, so get it by prescription.

5. If you have thyroid issues and are having other hard to pinpoint, vague or otherwise confusing symptoms, doctors will tend to forget that old saying about 'when you hear hoofbeats, don't look for zebras' and will spend a lot of time sending you for tests and explaining why your symptom can't possibly by thyroid-related. They. Are. Wrong. If I were to list the symptoms I have had over the years that were absolutely, positively, definitely, totally not thyroid-related that all disappeared the minute I got my thyroid levels right, it would be a very long list indeed (see point 1 about the fact that most endocrinologists don't really know all that much about thyroid function).

6. Run, don't walk, away from any endo who doesn't test your T3 levels.

7. Synthetic thyroid hormone is not the answer for everyone. Many people (me included) do much, much, much better on naturally desiccated thyroid products. They're prescription only, but GPs and endos don't like to prescribe them much- if that's what you want or think you need, keep looking for a doctor who is sympathetic to that.

8. Have you had your hormone levels checked? Times of drastically changing hormones - pregnancy, postpartum, peri-menopause, menopause seem to be times where thyroid issues are triggered.

9. Have you been tested for Lyme Disease? I've always been convinced that's what triggered mine.

10. It's completely possible to live a totally full and normal life with this.

@missy - This is pretty much everything I would have added to my first post!

Only other thing I’d add would be to have patience during this process and accept that it might be a long time before figuring out what combination of medicines and dosages work for you (and that they might change over time). I too caught my hypothyroidism as it was first starting and had to tweak the dosages for the next year and a half because my body kept changing. I’m now on a maintenance of Armour Thyroid in the morning plus Cytomel in the afternoon and it works pretty well for me. Other factors can affect its effectiveness though (stress, illness, etc), so sometimes temporary adjustments are needed.

 

[missy]

@missy - This is pretty much everything I would have added to my first post!

Only other thing I’d add would be to have patience during this process and accept that it might be a long time before figuring out what combination of medicines and dosages work for you (and that they might change over time). I too caught my hypothyroidism as it was first starting and had to tweak the dosages for the next year and a half because my body kept changing. I’m now on a maintenance of Armour Thyroid in the morning plus Cytomel in the afternoon and it works pretty well for me. Other factors can affect its effectiveness though (stress, illness, etc), so sometimes temporary adjustments are needed.

Thanks @ILikeShiny. Armour Thyroid is a naturally desiccated thyroid med right?
I'm nervous today because I hate going to the doctor especially a new one who might not welcome my long list of questions. I appreciate your help and I am so glad you have found the perfect combo for your relief.

 

[BlingDreams]

Thanks @ILikeShiny. Armour Thyroid is a naturally desiccated thyroid med right?
I'm nervous today because I hate going to the doctor especially a new one who might not welcome my long list of questions. I appreciate your help and I am so glad you have found the perfect combo for your relief.

Yes, it’s an NDT. I had to press my doctor to prescribe it for me as he wanted me to take Synthroid (heavily marketed by drug companies and the one most familiar to doctors). Be ready for false/wide-spread statements about the consistency of NDT batches (Mary Shomon can help you there). In the end I told him that my preference was to stay as natural as possible, and agreed that if it didn’t help within six months I’d be open to other options.

Oh, my combo isn’t perfect. I still have some symptoms (dry skin, lots of hair loss, some fatigue, etc) but it’s so much better than it was. I notice things are really off when I need to nap in the afternoons again or I sleep all night and still feel tired. Right now I’m shedding so much I joked the other night I could make a toupee - haha.

It’s a crappy disease. But you learn to roll with the punches.

 

[yennyfire]

Aww Missy, I'm sorry that you are dealing with this! I hope you find a doctor that treats all of you, not just your symptoms and that you find relief asap! Hugs sweet friend!

 

[lyra]

@missy Have you done genetic testing through bloodwork? Just curious. My rheumatologist had me do a wide variety panel before my first appointment. HLA b27, all the lupus tests, and RA ones and more. Just curious. It may not be as "simple" as a thyroid issue. Trying to think as broadly as possible. My endocrinologist is young and very proactive, lol. I'm somewhat glad that I have a mix of young and old specialists. It's a good mix although I don't want any to retire!

 

[jaaron]

Sorry quick in and out as we have people coming to dinner and it's that time in the UK - Yes to what other people have said about it being a process to figure out medications and dosages. I am also on Armour, although I was on Synthroid only and did well for a long time. Eventually it did stop working so well for me and it took a little while to get things figured out. I suspect you're already pretty switched on, Missy, but learning to listen to your body is really important.

I'm actually on a combination now of 1 grain of Armour in the morning, .5 of Armour in the afternoon and 25 mcg of Synthroid before bed and I've been very stable on this for about three years.

Hope your appointment went well.

 

[missy]

Sorry quick in and out as we have people coming to dinner and it's that time in the UK - Yes to what other people have said about it being a process to figure out medications and dosages. I am also on Armour, although I was on Synthroid only and did well for a long time. Eventually it did stop working so well for me and it took a little while to get things figured out. I suspect you're already pretty switched on, Missy, but learning to listen to your body is really important.

I'm actually on a combination now of 1 grain of Armour in the morning, .5 of Armour in the afternoon and 25 mcg of Synthroid before bed and I've been very stable on this for about three years.

Hope your appointment went well.

Hi Jaaron, thank you for the added info. I am glad you found the perfect combination for you and that you are doing well. It is a process I know.

I left the new endocrinologist this afternoon feeling a bit underwhelmed with her. I chose her thinking ok young endocrinologist and hopefully will cutting edge not old and set in her ways. Well nope. She was conventional and by the mainstream medical textbook. This endocrinologist diagnosed me with Hashimotos from the blood work (just from my TPO results) and felt my thyroid (which felt normal size) but didn't think it necessary to get other blood work nor do any other tests.

She wants me to go on thyroid meds but she refused to put me on the Armour as she said it is too potent for me. Something about receptors in the heart being sensitive to T4 (I guess the Armour is T4 and the Levothyroxine/Synthroid is T3). So she put me on 25 mg of Levothyroxine to start and is seeing me back in 3 months and will repeat blood work then. She told me take it first thing in AM on an empty stomach so I have to rearrange my Oracea med schedule. I am debating what to do. I think I will try it and see how my body feels on it. She did say I could stop at any time if I am getting any side effects but that would be rare.

I asked her about supplementation and diet etc and she nixed it all saying diet has nothing to do with hashimotos. And that there was no way to reverse it. I do not agree completely with her way of thinking as diet/food is medicine in a very real way and to pooh pooh it is just not right IMO.

I did just pick up Brazil nuts on my way home. They are HUGE haha. But very tasty and I am going to start with one a day.

Hope you are having a wonderful dinner party and thank you for taking the time to share info and help me.

@missy Have you done genetic testing through bloodwork? Just curious. My rheumatologist had me do a wide variety panel before my first appointment. HLA b27, all the lupus tests, and RA ones and more. Just curious. It may not be as "simple" as a thyroid issue. Trying to think as broadly as possible. My endocrinologist is young and very proactive, lol. I'm somewhat glad that I have a mix of young and old specialists. It's a good mix although I don't want any to retire!

Hi Lyra, thanks for your post. I have been tested by my derm in Dec and Jan for Lupus, RA etc but not the HLA b27. I will ask him about this when I see him on Thursday. Thanks. I wish I had more proactive thinking out of the box doctors like you do. I like my derm very much but he is too conventional. I found an integrative endocrinologist located in NYC while I was searching online this AM but she accepts no insurance and the initial consult is $800 with each additional followup up $500 not including blood work and other tests so it will be pricey. Not ruling it out but I don't feel like I am there just yet if you kwim. I am going to see how it goes on the Levothyroxine.

Yes, it’s an NDT. I had to press my doctor to prescribe it for me as he wanted me to take Synthroid (heavily marketed by drug companies and the one most familiar to doctors). Be ready for false/wide-spread statements about the consistency of NDT batches (Mary Shomon can help you there). In the end I told him that my preference was to stay as natural as possible, and agreed that if it didn’t help within six months I’d be open to other options.

Oh, my combo isn’t perfect. I still have some symptoms (dry skin, lots of hair loss, some fatigue, etc) but it’s so much better than it was. I notice things are really off when I need to nap in the afternoons again or I sleep all night and still feel tired. Right now I’m shedding so much I joked the other night I could make a toupee - haha.

It’s a crappy disease. But you learn to roll with the punches.

Aww ILikeShiny I am sorry you are dealing with many of the symptoms still. Hoping you find your perfect combination soon. Thanks for the additional info. She refused to prescribe the NDT for me (see my above explanation to Jaaron) but I am taking it one day at a time and if I am having problems with the Levothyroxine I will contact her and see what I can do. Synthroid isn't covered by my medical insurance but again if I am having issues with the Levothyroxine maybe I can contest it. I am just tired of fighting. Fighting for doctors who think outside the box, fighting the medical insurance to cover procedures and meds and treatments and fighting to be able to be in good health.

Thank you so much for your help. I appreciate it.

Aww Missy, I'm sorry that you are dealing with this! I hope you find a doctor that treats all of you, not just your symptoms and that you find relief asap! Hugs sweet friend!

Thank you sweet Yenny and (((hugs))) to you too. Hope all is going well with you and your family!