Thoughts on this diamond (New to this)

[TreeScientist]

Hello all!
I've been lurking on these forums for a few weeks now, as I'm ready to pick out an engagement ring and want to get the best ring for my budget (about $4500). These forums have been extremely helpful regarding what specs are important, what to look for when selecting a diamond, what are the ideal proportions and angles for maximizing light return, etc. I'm a geochemist, so I've actually found this whole diamond science thing quite fascinating.

Trying to milk some info about my girlfriends preferences over the last few months without giving anything away, I've gotten out of her that she wants a platinum ring with " a pretty diamond, but not a big one" which I took to mean that I should prioritize the other 3 Cs to get a brilliant diamond and get the largest carat size I could find after maximizing those other parameters.

So after looking on multiple online diamond retailers and spending all weekend pouring over stones, I've finally decided on this one:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4278570

Specs are as follows:
Carat: 0.77
Size: 5.90*5.87*3.62
Color: G
Clarity: VS1 (And face clean in the Super Zoom)
Cut: GIA Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
girdle: Medium-Slightly Thick
Depth: 61.60%
Table: 57.00%
Crown Angle: 34.50
Pavilion Angle: 40.60

Price is $3380, which when combined with the $100 off for new customers and this ring in Platinum:
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-bezel-set-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53652

puts me at around $4300, which is perfect for my budget. I really like the symmetry in this ring (nice looking arrows) and the brilliance, but I just wanted to get the "experts" opinion on this site.

So, what do you all think?
Is this a good price for the quality? (It seems to be, but of course I'm new to this)
Is there any red flags to this stone that I should look out for?
Are the dimensions well proportioned?

I just put the stone on hold for 48 hours before purchasing, so any help, guidance, or moral support are greatly appreciated. Whenever I make a big purchase, I like to get a wide range of opinions. My mom thinks it's beautiful, but then again she's no expert beyond the "Ohhhh, it's so shiny!" part.

Thanks again, and looking forward to being a part of this community!

 

[bmfang]

Specs for your chosen stone are smack bang in the sweet spot for GIA graded stones in super ideal territory.

The internal graining appears to be visible at certain viewing angles on the magnified video by I suspect when zoomed out to standard 1x viewing size, you are unlikely to be able to notice it. The same thing with the feather which appears to be smack bang under the table facet.

You may wish to request that JA provide you with an Idealscope image for this stone. I’m expecting to see edge to edge red saturation on the resulting image which should indicate strong light performance for it.

 

[TreeScientist]

Thanks for your input bmfang! The internal graining was my only concern, as it seems you can view it a bit in the table.

I also saw these other two which I was also interested in:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3671055
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3151384

The crown on the second seems a bit high, but it looks like it still has good performance. Do you think either of these would be a better choice?

 

[TreeScientist]

OK, actually decided to ultimately go with this one.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3947799

A bit over my budget at $4800 for the complete ring, but I really love this stone and the fire it shows when rotating.

Specs for this one are:
Carat: 0.80
Size: 5.99*5.95*3.69
Color: G
Clarity: VVS2
Cut: GIA Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
girdle: Medium-Slightly Thick
Depth: 61.80%
Table: 56.00%
Crown Angle: 35.00
Pavilion Angle: 40.80

Looked up the HCA score for this one, and while it's 1.6 as opposed to 0.9 for the first, it appears to have much more brilliance that the first diamond I posted. I think it may be due to the lack of internal graining, which seemed to make the first one appear slightly milky under the table.

Bonus is that it's a Canadian diamond. I didn't choose it for that reason, as I know that most diamonds from Africa are conflict free now, but I still appreciate the additional environmental and social obligations that the Canadian government makes the mining companies abide by as compared to the African governments.

 

[whitewave]

OK, actually decided to ultimately go with this one.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3947799

A bit over my budget at $4800 for the complete ring, but I really love this stone and the fire it shows when rotating.

Specs for this one are:
Carat: 0.80
Size: 5.99*5.95*3.69
Color: G
Clarity: VVS2
Cut: GIA Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
girdle: Medium-Slightly Thick
Depth: 61.80%
Table: 56.00%
Crown Angle: 35.00
Pavilion Angle: 40.80

Looked up the HCA score for this one, and while it's 1.6 as opposed to 0.9 for the first, it appears to have much more brilliance that the first diamond I posted. I think it may be due to the lack of internal graining, which seemed to make the first one appear slightly milky under the table.

Bonus is that it's a Canadian diamond. I didn't choose it for that reason, as I know that most diamonds from Africa are conflict free now, but I still appreciate the additional environmental and social obligations that the Canadian government makes the mining companies abide by as compared to the African governments.

Gorgeous stone! It will be a beautiful ring-- we want shots of the completed ring and then hand shots!!

Congratulations!

 

[farrahlyn]

love the stone you chose! I know you didn't ask for opinions but i have to ask though about the setting. are you SURE she wants a bezel setting? Bezels are just one of those settings you either love or hate. i personally do love a bezel but i really wouldn't want a bezel engagement ring. if you're not sure then you need to make sure!

 

[TreeScientist]

Thanks for the input from both of you, and thanks for your concern about the bezel setting. I know it's not the traditional 4- or 6-prong, but I'm almost positive that's what she wants. I was also able to get from her that she wanted something "without sharp edges or prongs" so prongs settings are out. She also wanted something simple (meaning no side stones).

She's in medical school now and will be a pediatrician in the future. She doesn't wear any jewelry with prongs because they can tear the nitrile gloves that doctors frequently put on and take off throughout the day. She also wanted something fairly simple (no pave or carvings or side stones) because every little crevice just makes it harder to clean.

As a scientist myself who wears nitrile gloves for many experiments, I totally understand where she's coming from. While I prefer 6-prong solitare settings myself purely from an aesthetics standpoint (I think they really highlight the center stone), I know the prongs would be a major PITA for her.

 

[farrahlyn]

Thanks for the input from both of you, and thanks for your concern about the bezel setting. I know it's not the traditional 4- or 6-prong, but I'm almost positive that's what she wants. I was also able to get from her that she wanted something "without sharp edges or prongs" so prongs settings are out. She also wanted something simple (meaning no side stones).

She's in medical school now and will be a pediatrician in the future. She doesn't wear any jewelry with prongs because they can tear the nitrile gloves that doctors frequently put on and take off throughout the day. She also wanted something fairly simple (no pave or carvings or side stones) because every little crevice just makes it harder to clean.

As a scientist myself who wears nitrile gloves for many experiments, I totally understand where she's coming from. While I prefer 6-prong solitare settings myself purely from an aesthetics standpoint (I think they really highlight the center stone), I know the prongs would be a major PITA for her.

in that case, definitedly a good choice! There have been several discussions on here about settings for nurses and how difficult it can be to wear an e-ring with gloves.

Please post pics when you receive it!

 

[TreeScientist]

in that case, definitedly a good choice! There have been several discussions on here about settings for nurses and how difficult it can be to wear an e-ring with gloves.

Please post pics when you receive it!

Will definitely post pics after the proposal.

I looked through many of those threads on here for recommendations for doctors/nurses, and simple bezel settings seemed to be the consensus as the only ring that was truly glove-friendly due to their lack of edges.

 

[RetroTreeGal]

Hi OP! Luckily you already ordered (nice choices!) so I won’t feel bad for the thread derailment. What makes a geochemist choose TreeScientist as their forum name? There are so few of us tree people on a diamond forum, so I was drawn in.

 

[Dancing Fire]

A very nice well balanced stone.

 

[TreeScientist]

A very nice well balanced stone.

Thank you Dancing Fire! Also, I would like to add that I really like the moon phase watch in your profile pic. I'm a big fan of the work of A&S. IMO they're one of the few brands that do a date window right (most brands seem to throw them in there as an afterthought).

Hi OP! Luckily you already ordered (nice choices!) so I won’t feel bad for the thread derailment. What makes a geochemist choose TreeScientist as their forum name? There are so few of us tree people on a diamond forum, so I was drawn in.

No worries about the derailment. Cool to see another dendrologist on this forum!

I'm a stable isotope geochemist (we go by biogeochemist, but that sounds too pretentious to use in an internet forum ). Our lab works on many different areas, but my work mainly concerns the use of differences in the isotope ratios within individual tree rings to reconstruct seasonal differences in climate (temperature, precipitation, etc.) from thousands to millions of years ago. It's a subfield called stable isotope dendroclimatology (an even more pretentious name ). Basically, if there was a really cold summer or really warm winter in one year relative to other years, then we're able to quantify it by looking at isotopic differences within the ring from that year.

What kind of "Tree Person" are you?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thank you Dancing Fire! Also, I would like to add that I really like the moon phase watch in your profile pic. I'm a big fan of the work of A&S. IMO they're one of the few brands that do a date window right (most brands seem to throw them in there as an afterthought).

I love their BIG date windows. My eyes are too old for small date.

 

[TreeScientist]

I love their BIG date windows. My eyes are too old for small date.

Agreed, although my eyes are not old yet (26) they're still pretty bad. I don't want to squint to see the date windows.

Anyway, now I'm driving my self nuts here. I just saw another very similar diamond to the one I chose pop up on JA. Price difference is negligible ($50) and they look almost exactly the same. To the experts out there, which would you choose and why? (or does it not make any difference). I still think I prefer the original, but the second is also appealing:

One I chose:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3947799

New one I saw today:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4298132

The one thing that worries me about the new diamond is the crown angle of 35.5. I know that with a 40.6 pavilion it would probably balance it out, but still I'm worried about a reduction in fire (particularly because of the larger table too. I don't want a big reflective stone without fire).

 

[rockysalamander]

Agreed, although my eyes are not old yet (26) they're still pretty bad. I don't want to squint to see the date windows.

Anyway, now I'm driving my self nuts here. I just saw another very similar diamond to the one I chose pop up on JA. Price difference is negligible ($50) and they look almost exactly the same. To the experts out there, which would you choose and why? (or does it not make any difference). I still think I prefer the original, but the second is also appealing:

One I chose:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3947799

New one I saw today:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4298132

The one thing that worries me about the new diamond is the crown angle of 35.5. I know that with a 40.6 pavilion it would probably balance it out, but still I'm worried about a reduction in fire (particularly because of the larger table too. I don't want a big reflective stone without fire).

The difference between these two is really the type of inclusions and the CA/PA balance. I actually greatly prefer the CA/PA of the second one (4298132). It adds a cloud an a grade setting inclusion, but give it is VVS that should be a none issue.

When available to them, JA will provide an IS (idealscope) image for rounds. I don't see that you got one from #1. I would ask that they send you one for both of these to confirm light return.

On the setting, I very much like the JA bezel. Its a great choice and very cleanable. I also think platinum is key given that many common lab and disinfecting chemicals (especially iodine and certain dyes) can stain gold. Assuming she can wear the ring during work, which varies by facility and specialty, just make sure she scrubs the ring frequently. A lot of hand sanitizers will build up and become much harder to clean once they are dried.

 

[TreeScientist]

The difference between these two is really the type of inclusions and the CA/PA balance. I actually greatly prefer the CA/PA of the second one (4298132). It adds a cloud an a grade setting inclusion, but give it is VVS that should be a none issue.

When available to them, JA will provide an IS (idealscope) image for rounds. I don't see that you got one from #1. I would ask that they send you one for both of these to confirm light return.

On the setting, I very much like the JA bezel. Its a great choice and very cleanable.

Thanks for the reply! Why do you prefer the CA/PA for the second? Also, is the cavity in the second an issue at the VVS level? I've heard its generally best to avoid cavities.

Unfortunately, JA doesn't have IdealScopes for these stones (It seems pretty rare that they have them for stones under 1 carat except for their TrueHearts verified stones).

 

[rockysalamander]

The 40.6 PA is a better match for the CA on the second. When you are looking at 35-35.5 CA, PA of 40.6 works better. Cavities are something to consider. Given it is VVS, it will be tiny tiny. I looked and was not able to find it (even under superzoom), but that is not unusually in a VVS stone. You really need them in hand. In this case, the grading report is a diamond dossier so lacks a clarity plot. You can ask the JA gemologist to locate it on the stone to be sure.

I'm surprised they don't have an IS as they usually can produce them. Must be the particular supplier. You can ask the JA gemologist (not sales associated) to tell you where the cavity it located.

What about this one? AGS0 is stricter on cut than GIA, great numbers and has a solid IS?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-g-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-4284781

 

[TreeScientist]

The 40.6 PA is a better match for the CA on the second. When you are looking at 35-35.5 CA, PA of 40.6 works better. Cavities are something to consider. Given it is VVS, it will be tiny tiny. I looked and was not able to find it (even under superzoom), but that is not unusually in a VVS stone. You really need them in hand. In this case, the grading report is a diamond dossier so lacks a clarity plot. You can ask the JA gemologist to locate it on the stone to be sure.

I'm surprised they don't have an IS as they usually can produce them. Must be the particular supplier. You can ask the JA gemologist (not sales associated) to tell you where the cavity it located.

What about this one? AGS0 is stricter on cut than GIA, great numbers and has a solid IS?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-g-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-4284781

Thanks for the suggestion, but I would like to stick with the CanadaMark diamonds (I know, may not matter to some people, but my girlfriend is fairly socially conscious and I think she would appreciate it).

So, of the 2, would you suggest going with the second if a Gemologist can confirm the cavity is a non-issue? I looked and was not able to locate it either, leading me to suspect it's somewhere on the bottom.

 

[rockysalamander]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I would like to stick with the CanadaMark diamonds (I know, may not matter to some people, but my girlfriend is fairly socially conscious and I think she would appreciate it).

So, of the 2, would you suggest going with the second if a Gemologist can confirm the cavity is a non-issue? I looked and was not able to locate it either, leading me to suspect it's somewhere on the bottom.

That would be my choice of the two. But, I would actually choose the TH option as it is a sure thing relative to performance.

Choosing one diamond mine over the other is simply choosing one type of social issue to prioritize over others, which is valid. But, go in with your eyes open. All diamonds from JA have to comply with the Kimberly process. While the process has its flaws, it does manage much of the social cost that was made infamous. Also, the war is Sierra Leone is long over and many many diamonds are sourced from communities that actually get direct benefit from the mines...they are often the only source of work. When I visited mines (gemstone as much as diamonds) in my youth, it was clear that communities relied on the work generated from artisinal mining.

Nevertheless, while one can continue to argue that Canadian diamonds have the edge on certain social issues, they are still very harmful to their local environment. Many mines are in fragile ecosystems and while they are obligated to treat wastewater and avoid cyanide and the like entering the ecosystem, they still have significant impact on wildlife and aboriginal hunting grounds and social structure. These mines displace people from places that traditionally provided them food, shelter, and social and spiritual connection to the place they are forced to leave. Many communities have conflicts over water (quantity and quality).

Not the place for a debate, but would encourage you to do some research before accepting it as a given that Canadian mines have less social cost.

 

[TreeScientist]

That would be my choice of the two. But, I would actually choose the TH option as it is a sure thing relative to performance.

Choosing one diamond mine over the other is simply choosing one type of social issue to prioritize over others, which is valid. But, go in with your eyes open. All diamonds from JA have to comply with the Kimberly process. While the process has its flaws, it does manage much of the social cost that was made infamous. Also, the war is Sierra Leone is long over and many many diamonds are sourced from communities that actually get direct benefit from the mines...they are often the only source of work. When I visited mines (gemstone as much as diamonds) in my youth, it was clear that communities relied on the work generated from artisinal mining.

Nevertheless, while one can continue to argue that Canadian diamonds have the edge on certain social issues, they are still very harmful to their local environment. Many mines are in fragile ecosystems and while they are obligated to treat wastewater and avoid cyanide and the like entering the ecosystem, they still have significant impact on wildlife and aboriginal hunting grounds and social structure. These mines displace people from places that traditionally provided them food, shelter, and social and spiritual connection to the place they are forced to leave. Many communities have conflicts over water (quantity and quality).

Not the place for a debate, but would encourage you to do some research before accepting it as a given that Canadian mines have less social cost.

Great, thanks again for your input. I respect your opinion of these matters, but I actually looked at both stones with a gemologist, and decided to stick with stone 1. It actually seemed to respond better to different light conditions. Also, I think I prefer diamonds with a smaller table (56% on the original stone vs 58% on the new one). When I zoomed both out to 1X magnification, the 56% table seems to not create as much of a "mirror effect" on the face of the diamond, and has larger side facets for more sparkle.

I fully recognize that no diamond mining operation is perfect and squeaky-clean from an environmental perspective (actually, I don't know of any mining industry that is perfect), but it seems that the Canadian mines are more progressive in terms of their environmental responsibility than the African mines (again, due to stricter regulations by the Canadian government. As someone who understands free market capitalism, I'm fully aware that large corporations will do whatever they can get away with to maximize profits at the expense of all else, because share values are what ultimately matter).

My reservations come more from the social-welfare side. Canada has minimum wage and child labor laws in place, which is something I wholeheartedly support (I'm living in Norway now, which is turning me into a "damn communist" as my dad would refer to socialists ). I know that the African mines are a source of income to the local African communities, but I feel more comfortable buying products from companies where the above social welfare laws are in place. Same reason I'll pay slightly more for other products if they're made in a system with transparent labor laws than in potential sweatshop conditions.

 

[rockysalamander]

Great, thanks again for your input. I respect your opinion of these matters, but I actually looked at both stones with a gemologist, and decided to stick with stone 1. It actually seemed to respond better to different light conditions. Also, I think I prefer diamonds with a smaller table (56% on the original stone vs 58% on the new one). When I zoomed both out to 1X magnification, the 56% table seems to not create as much of a "mirror effect" on the face of the diamond, and has larger side facets for more sparkle.

I fully recognize that no diamond mining operation is perfect and squeaky-clean from an environmental perspective (actually, I don't know of any mining industry that is perfect), but it seems that the Canadian mines are more progressive in terms of their environmental responsibility than the African mines (again, due to stricter regulations by the Canadian government. As someone who understands free market capitalism, I'm fully aware that large corporations will do whatever they can get away with to maximize profits at the expense of all else, because share values are what ultimately matter).

My reservations come more from the social-welfare side. Canada has minimum wage and child labor laws in place, which is something I wholeheartedly support (I'm living in Norway now, which is turning me into a "damn communist" as my dad would refer to socialists ). I know that the African mines are a source of income to the local African communities, but I feel more comfortable buying products from companies where the above social welfare laws are in place. Same reason I'll pay slightly more for other products if they're made in a system with transparent labor laws than in potential sweatshop conditions.

Fair enough. Sounds like you've done what I suggested, test the assumption and make sure it aligns with your specific goals. Good on you.

Glad you settled on a diamond you are happy with. Post pics when it arrives!

 

[RetroTreeGal]

No worries about the derailment. Cool to see another dendrologist on this forum!
...
What kind of "Tree Person" are you?

I’m somewhat familiar with your line of work. Very cool! I work on the other end of the spectrum; I’m a forester. I work with landowners to help them achieve their goals of sustainable timber production and/or improved wildlife habitat. I also implement these practices on public lands. And other smaller duties too like teaching FFA chapters, power line companies, etc.

 

[Maggiemeans]

Very interesting thread..
Well written
Two diverse topics

Please post pics!

 

[whitewave]

As an aside, my second son is going into forestry/geographic information systems.... sorta related...

 

[RetroTreeGal]

As an aside, my second son is going into forestry/geographic information systems.... sorta related...

GIS is fun. I can only do elementary things with it but I enjoy it. In fact I’m using it right now (well I should be, instead of posting on PS.) That’s a great field for him to get into!

 

[whitewave]

GIS is fun. I can only do elementary things with it but I enjoy it. In fact I’m using it right now (well I should be, instead of posting on PS.) That’s a great field for him to get into!

Yes, he and my first son will be at XXX Tech-- first son is in environmental science.... tech has great programs in GIS and ES.

 

[rockysalamander]

I use GIS every day. Mostly on the user side, but most of my field data is collected and uploaded into it for spatial analysis and planning. Make sure your son learns scripting languages. Very good thing.

Sorry for the threadjack!

 

[whitewave]

I use GIS every day. Mostly on the user side, but most of my field data is collected and uploaded into it for spatial analysis and planning. Make sure your son learns scripting languages. Very good thing.

Sorry for the threadjack!

Oh, yeah, he is going to need a special computer and all sorts of stuff...

 

[TreeScientist]

Oh wow, it's a GIS party! Definitely a unexpected but interesting threadjack.

I've just started using GIS in my own research to create visual maps of some models we're working on that show changes in growing season days throughout Scandinavia with climate change.

Glad to meet a forester on the forums RetroTreeGal, and it sounds like you have a rewarding job. It's vitally important to protect our remaining forests. I work with many foresters in my current position. They help us with picking out locations and specimens for our modern (non-fossil) wood samples. They're a never-ending source of knowledge related to all things trees. I feel completely ignorant when talking to them (Confession: I don't actually know that much about tree classification. I'm more on the chemistry side).

 

[TreeScientist]

Not the place for a debate, but would encourage you to do some research before accepting it as a given that Canadian mines have less social cost.

I would just like to acknowledge rockysalamander for opening my eyes to the issues with Canadian diamonds. I'm one to acknowledge when I've made a mistake and spoke too soon, and after doing research yesterday evening about some of the issues related to the Canadian diamond mines (specifically the amount of fossil fuels they require to operate and their less-than-ideal treatment of the native communities and native wildlife in many instances) I must admit that they don't appear to be any better than diamond mines in other locations per-say. So, thank you for bringing up these issues to me and allowing me to pursue them further on my own.

I decided that the Canadian diamonds weren't really worth the extra cost (and also, thanks to the other threads on PS, I realized that VVS2 was definitely overkill) so I re-opened my search for that perfect stone. As luck would have it, a new (January 10th, 2018 GIA report) eye-clean SI1 G just popped up on JamesAllen that I absolutely loved. 0.13 carats larger than the original Canadian stone I selected and only $390 more! Jumped on it right away and made the switch. Staff at JA were very accommodating and said it was perfectly fine and that many customers switch stones.

Here's the link to the new one:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4284017

And the specs:
Price: $4390
Carat: 0.93
Size: 6.29*6.30*3.87
Color: G
Clarity: SI1 (And extremely face clean for SI1 even in Super Zoom)
Cut: GIA Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
girdle: Medium
Depth: 61.40%
Table: 55.00%
Crown Angle: 34.50
Pavilion Angle: 40.60

I think this is an absolute steal at around $4400. It faces up about the same size as most 1 carats, so I doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference, and is about $1500-2000 cheaper than any comparable 1 carat I've seen at the G color (which is the lowest I would personally go). LGF is 80%, which creates arrows that are a bit on the thin side, but I think it will actually help cancel out some of the darkening issues that can be found with a shallower pavilion angle.

JA didn't have the IdealScope on file, but they're going to send it to me once the gemologist inspects the stone before they start the ring production process. However, barring any really egregious issues with the IS, I'm pretty sure I'll stick with this one. It's a really great price on an (almost) 1 carat. I didn't want to be stuck with the shrinking-syndrome that many PS'ers describe when they get their stones, and I'm pretty sure that with 0.93 carats this won't be an issue.