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Please help - milky diamond, think we've been mislead

cam01

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Jul 13, 2017
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Hi there,

I am hoping for your advice! we picked out a diamond in London's Hatton Gardens and chose a 0.57 carat round cut diamond. The specs are G colour, excellent cut polish and symmetry, no fluoro and SI2

I'm concerned that we've been mislead and given the wrong information and in short, my diamond looks awful in certain bright lights, especially sunlight. The clarity grade is SI2, based on "cloud". I do not have the full report and only the GIA dossier so unfortunately there is no plot. The diamond looks milky / hazy and almost like I want to wipe the top of it but of course that doesn't help!

Our budget allowed us to either go for a 0.45 carat SI1 diamond or a 0.57 carat SI2 diamond. The two diamonds placed next to each other the 0.57 carat SI2 diamond looked "whiter" even though the colour grade was slightly lower. I questioned it at the time but was assured that it was a good stone. The GIA number is: 6183010947.

We were told that clouds are a good thing in terms of inclusions and that the cloud(s) do not affect the brilliance of the diamond at all and it has a lot of fire - gemologist's words.

Since reading the forums on pricescope I am really concerned that we've been mislead, and clouds are not a good thing especially when it seems that this is the only inclusion and the clarity grade is therefore based on this?

Could I have your advice/thoughts please? It is outside of the 30 day returns policy as we bought it about 4 months ago and my boyfriend kept the ring to surprise me at a later date, so I've been wearing the ring for about 2 months and it bothers me every time I catch it in bright lighting.

Thanks so much
 

Tourmaline

Ideal_Rock
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I'm so sorry you have learned this the hard way. It's true, the cloud as the main clarity characteristic of an SI2 stone is the reason for the lack of brilliance. Yes, you were mislead.
 

OoohShiny

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I'm sorry to hear you are not happy with your stone. Sad to say that some jewellers will tell potential purchasers any old nonsense in order to get a sale :(

Clouds can scatter light as it travels through the diamond, I think, which is why it looks white in some lights (because the inclusions are lighting up) but then hazy in other lights (because the light is not coming back out of the top of the diamond as sparkles). Think of them like foggy weather - it can be a very bright day but you cannot see the sunlight bouncing back off hard surfaces.

The GIA report is not very descriptive:
https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=6183010947

but the angles aren't too bad - it scores a 2.8 on the HCA tool:
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

I think you need to speak to the jeweller and either ask for a refund (which they'll likely say 'no' to :rolleyes: ) or say you are not happy with the stone and would like to swap it for another. It might be a sensitive subject for your partner, as 'the ring' represents a lot, but hopefully they will understand if you couch it in terms of wanting to get the best performance for the money.

I am hopeful that the jeweller will be accommodating, although I fear they may demand you upgrade to a more expensive stone. If that is the case, we may be able to assist by helping you pick out stones that are available on the market and can be called in to look at, or by 'running the numbers' on stones they are putting forward for consideration.

I hope we can help get you to the point that you are happy with your ring :)
 

metall

Brilliant_Rock
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I am sorry to hear that you've been misled by your jeweler. I hope that you take @OoohShiny's advice. I am hopeful that the Jeweler will realize that you are a knowledgeable buyer and work with you to make this right.

It is good that you were able to recognize that this is not what you were looking for in a timely manner. I will follow along and hope for a great outcome.
 

cam01

Rough_Rock
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Jul 13, 2017
Messages
13
Thank you so much for your replies so far. The jeweller has come back to say they'll put the ring in their ultrasonic cleaner and we can also discuss options when I go in to store :twisted2:

Hopefully there's an positive outcome, it sounds very spoilt but when I look down and catch the diamond in certain lighting my heart really drops as I realise the mistake I've made!

If they give me hassle at the store, do you think I have a leg to stand on if I say I feel we were mislead?
 

Austina

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How did you pay @cam01 ? If CC you may possibly have some recourse through them. If not, then perhaps mention Trading Standards on the grounds you were misled.
 

cam01

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IMG_8888.JPG IMG_8892.JPG Also I've attached a few photos, maybe in the hopes someone can tell me I'm imagining it? Very difficult to get a good photo. My guess is that my first thought is that it is cloudy and posts so far confirm my fears!
 

flyingpig

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my diamond looks awful in certain bright lights, especially sunlight.

I am sorry that you are not happy with your stone. But take a deep breath and re-assess.

Intense light coming from a narrow range of angles (eg sunlight) can make a diamond look milky.
There is no doubt this diamond is clear. But it appears milky in some photos (top right)
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...amond-looks-dark-under-direct-sunlight.69289/
My J VS1 and E VVS2 do something similar under direct sunlight. They appear milky in some conditions.

A cloudy diamond appears dull and cloudy in different light conditions, not just one condition unless you are dealing with med-strong fluo diamonds. Go to a mall store and see some real cloudy diamonds. They look cloudy even in dim lighting. Go to Tiffany and see some high quality diamonds. Try to get a sense of what "cloudy" really is. I guess strong light can make it worse. Make sure you clean your diamond and inspect under different light conditions from different angles, including from the side

Regarding the new photos you uploaded, it does look a bit cloudy. But the diamond appears blurry and is not in focus. Is it clean?
 
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tyty333

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Ditto flyingpig...make sure your stone is really clean.
 

cam01

Rough_Rock
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Jul 13, 2017
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IMG_8905.JPG Thanks for your replies.

@flyingpig thank you for the link. In sunlight it doesn't appear darker, it's more milky / whiter around the perimeter. Do you think it could be the case that a diamond with no or minimal cloud would look milky/hazy in a lot of situations? Guaranteed the bright lights in a store/bathroom/restaurant and my diamond will look really hazy.

Yes it's definitely clean, it's looked like that since it came out the box. I've attached another photo though not sure it's any help, apologies for the poor quality
 

John P

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For the record, "clouds" are collections of microscopic inclusions, typically pinpoints. Every cloud is different. A cloud can be sparse or dense. It can cover an area that's wide or narrow, deep or shallow.

Most clouds are benign, with no visible impact on overall transparency or light performance. But when the presence of clouds alone reduces a diamond's clarity grade to SI or I, the chance that they're numerous or dense enough to impact transparency increases. A grade of SI2, based on clouds alone, is certainly a candidate for this, and is in line with what you're reporting.

The jeweller has come back to say they'll put the ring in their ultrasonic cleaner and we can also discuss options when I go in to store
This is positive. It implies they want to be sure this is not due to something external first (logical) and, regardless, they will extend options.

If they give me hassle at the store, do you think I have a leg to stand on if I say I feel we were mislead?
Just my 2 cents, but I'd give them the chance to hear your concerns, clean the diamond / examine it with you, and discuss solutions first.

You did note this: <<We were told that clouds are a good thing in terms of inclusions and that the cloud(s) do not affect the brilliance of the diamond at all and it has a lot of fire - gemologist's words.>>

If, after cleaning, the diamond's transparency/performance is indeed being reduced due to clouds, then it's important to remind them the assurances above compelled you to make the purchase in the first place.

Hope all goes smoothly.
 

ringo865

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They did a nice job in the prongs. But yah it does look a bit cloudy. And generally, lights in stores and restaurants will make diamonds more sparkly. I love elevator lighting.
 

Bron357

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Yes, the “clouds” are affecting its light return ie sparkle. When you view any suggested replacement diamonds, ask to take it outside into normal light. The lights in jewelers stores are specifically chosen to make any diamond look really fabulous. I would insist, politely, that they allow you to exchange the diamond for one with better clarity / less cloud inclusions. You have to remember though that as the clarity improves, the cost of the diamond goes up.
 

doberman

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Oh I'm sorry. You're not the first person here with a similar story. Before any more time elapses go back to the store, explain the problem and suggest very strongly that they switch out your diamond for one without clouding. And take this one out into the sunlight first .
 

Serg

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Check your diamonds in long UV( 365nm). Has it strong body fluorescence ?
 

cam01

Rough_Rock
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@Serg the GIA cert states fluorescence: none. Is this what you're referring to?
 

ratatat

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It does look cloudy I’m afraid to say :( it will make you feel much better to upgrade to a stone with better clarity. Could go down in colour to say H or I. This happened with my first diamond - SI1 based on cloud. Had to return it
 

cam01

Rough_Rock
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Jul 13, 2017
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Thanks so much everyone.

My concern is that because we bought it 4-5 months ago and I've been wearing it for 2 months; it's well outside the returns period of 30 days. Fingers crossed as their customer service so far has been excellent, and lots of 5 star Google and Tripadvisor reviews

Would a non expert like myself be able to pick up any clouds in a microscope? They did show us the diamond in a microscope and I don't remember seeing anything alarming hence we thought it was such a good deal for the money. Or would the lighting conditions under the microscope have to be such that it would only show the clouds if the lighting was unfavourable?
 

doberman

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks so much everyone.

I don't remember seeing anything alarming hence we thought it was such a good deal for the money. Or would the lighting conditions under the microscope have to be such that it would only show the clouds if the lighting was unfavourable?

When a diamond is "such a good deal for the money" there is usually something wrong with it. I'm sorry. Take it back and be polite but firm.
 

BrimstoneTwo

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Aug 1, 2017
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Good luck @cam01

We were shown some pretty awful stones on Hatton Gardens. Some stores seemed dodgier than others. They all insisted they were the best. I hope you are dealing with one that will make things right for you.
 

cam01

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@BrimstoneTwo The majority of them made us feel uncomfortable as they were definitely dodgy as you say, but the jeweller we chose have been great so far, so I'm hopeful we can sort it. Though I do wish we had ordered online from the US as so many informed people do now!

They have reminded me they're fully qualified gemmologists operating with full transparency to allow us to make the most informed decision (:cry2: !)and will have a look at the diamond from all angles and with the correct equipment when I go in to store.

I'm hopeful it's not an expensive mistake! Will keep this thread updated
 

metall

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@BrimstoneTwo The majority of them made us feel uncomfortable as they were definitely dodgy as you say, but the jeweller we chose have been great so far, so I'm hopeful we can sort it. Though I do wish we had ordered online from the US as so many informed people do now!

They have reminded me they're fully qualified gemmologists operating with full transparency to allow us to make the most informed decision (:cry2: !)and will have a look at the diamond from all angles and with the correct equipment when I go in to store.

I'm hopeful it's not an expensive mistake! Will keep this thread updated

A lot of times store lighting does a lot to hide imperfections with a stone. Once when I in store perusing diamonds, a quick glance at a 3.23 cushion cut diamond with f I1 stats that looked eyeclean, so I asked the SA for a look. The second she took it out of the counter, the diamond looked like a little bubble bath, when I told her that it was too included for my liking I got berated about what a "quality diamond" it was. :lol:

ETA: I hightailed it out of that store with the quickness!
 

WillyDiamond

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OP
Since you are outside of the return period you might be stuck.
Perhaps if you ask for a return, you might get it......probably not.
Maybe you could sell it back to them, but you will take a loss. Or sell it on your own, again another loss.
If you can return and get your money back, come back to PS and the experts will find you a stone and work with one of the PS vendors. The PS community sees this all the time where someone comes to the forum after they bought from a brick and mortar store and are now unhappy. I am sorry you did not find this site first. The experts on this forum use pictures and other tools like an ASET to assess a stone performance.
Best of luck.
 

John P

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Would a non expert like myself be able to pick up any clouds in a microscope?
The answer depends on the goal: Highlighting one characteristic is pretty simple. The professional selects lighting, finds the target at proper focal-depth, zoom and focus. Once set, others can look into the scope to see it, perhaps needing to adjust one eyepiece for personal binocular needs. If the scope projects to a flat-screen that's even more user-friendly.

Exploring a diamond's entirety takes experience. Microscopes resolve depth in microns, which is one of the coolest parts of microscopy, but limits detailed analysis to a single linear plane. What I mean is this: Establish focal depth at the diamond's table and its features become sharp. To explore within the diamond you'll descend focal depth. When you do this the table features disappear and internal characteristics within the diamond become visible and sharpen as they come into your plane of focal depth. In this manner you can isolate and study any characteristic within the diamond. But, for the same reason, it's not practical to expect every characteristic to be visible at once. There are also several lighting types which may be used singly or combined, depending on goals.
They did show us the diamond in a microscope and I don't remember seeing anything alarming hence we thought it was such a good deal for the money. Or would the lighting conditions under the microscope have to be such that it would only show the clouds if the lighting was unfavourable?
I hope the above explains why there isn't a simple answer. If you were looking at the entire diamond in the scope, rather than a single inclusion-target, the established focal depth and lighting dictated what you were able to see. Ask your jeweler if they recall how and what they showed you.

My concern is that because we bought it 4-5 months ago and I've been wearing it for 2 months; it's well outside the returns period of 30 days. Fingers crossed as their customer service so far has been excellent, and lots of 5 star Google and Tripadvisor reviews
That's a long time out of the garage, as it were. The solutions offered will depend on their customer service goals. Ultimately, especially given your comments, it sounds like they want you to be happy. I hope everything goes smoothly.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Relax, take it in and let them clean it and examine it, and see what they offer, be polite but firm if it isn't to your liking.
 

cam01

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Hi everyone,

I’m absolutely thrilled they’ve offered to swap the diamond to another of my choice

I was shown 4 diamonds similar spec and size to mine and plugged them in the HCA tool once I got home, unfortunately 3 of them were in the ‘leakage apparent’ category - even though they were all GIA excellent cut and symmetry.

This one seemed to fair the best: excellent cut and very good symmetry
https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=2257344849

The inclusion is a small feather. Alternatively they have said they can bring in diamonds but this is limited to what’s available on the market

Could I have your thoughts please? I realise a D colour is probably not necessary and very happy to drop in colour, but that seemed to perform the best on the HCA tool.

I’m not sure if I can send through a list of specs for them to bring in a diamond with the table size, depths, pav angles etc as recommended on PS? Not sure how practical this is in reality.

Thank you so much for all your help! Here’s hoping I can find a better diamond in the UK market
 

OoohShiny

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That is great news, I'm glad they are being accommodating and offered to swap the stone. (Although the cynic in me hopes that it is not because they are thinking they can use it to 'upgrade' you to a stone that is cheaper to them... :rolleyes:)

I presume that it will be at no cost to yourselves? It would be worth clarifying with them what they mean by 'what's available on the market'. Is 'the market' what's available from the wholesalers in the area? Or what is available worldwide? They may want to charge you (perhaps up to £100?) for bringing in stones from overseas.


With regards to the stone in the link, if you're sensitive to inclusions then it may take some time to find SI-clarity stones that are actually eye-clean. I see this a lot in the shops over here - high colour but terribly included stones, as if having a D or E is better than having a stone that actually performs well.

That stone may have a decent HCA score (2.6, Worth buying if the price is right - 62.5% depth, 55% table, 32° crown angle, 41.4° pavilion angle), but I believe the HCA tool is to check if the angles of the crown and pavilion work together. In this case the crown is low (at 32degrees) which means that it will have reduced amounts of dispersion from the crown and therefore be a stone that gives more white-light return than coloured fire. That's not necessarily bad, but it is a different 'flavour' of stone. The small table will benefit fire, though.

Would you be able to post what you paid for the original stone and the ring? That will enable us to search for stones that might suit.

IIRC when I was looking myself, one of the stores was working off a list that included GIA ratings etc. There are some 'Pricescope Recommended' ranges for all the different angles - hopefully someone will chime in and post them :) but I think you need to specify you want GIA triple-excellent stones only. That still leaves a lot of poorly-cut stones on the table (thanks to GIA allowing steep/deep combinations) but then the HCA tool enables you to sift through them and pick out the ones with complementary angles :)
 
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rockysalamander

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The crown angle is a bit low and will tend to make the diamond look very flat on top. Without an Idealscope image or ASET images, its hard to know if the stone will perform. Did you like it? Did you look at in natural light (bright and indirect)? What about fluorescent light?

I’m not sure if I can send through a list of specs for them to bring in a diamond with the table size, depths, pav angles etc as recommended on PS? Not sure how practical this is in reality.
Why not? It will save them a lot of time and trouble if you give them specific parameters. Give them your lowest color and that you want SI1 eyeclean (if you have any extra funds, you might give them a top budget including those funds to open up options).

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.
table: 54-58
depth: 60-62.3
crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)
pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

You may also wish to get your own ASET and H&A scope to be able to look at these relative to performance.
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/expert-scope-kit/
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/aset-kit/


Guessing at budget, but these would be worth pursing (give the jeweler the GIA numbers). If no commentary, it is a great stone. I avoided clouds unless I could see it as a concentrated feature (not dispersed, but see a notes}. The price on JA does not mean that is what your jeweller will charge, but should give you a concrete baseline.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2867549
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3565710
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269 {video makes color look worse than reality, but lovely not clarity issues and good numbers}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3759825 {great color and clarity. Solid numbers. Safe pick}

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3694773 {lovely faceting, lively good number. Twining wisps need to be reviewed for impact on performance, but I don't seen any evidence of them causing it}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3594319 {great numbers. feather runs between 5 and 6 oclock on the table edge, but took me a while on super-zoom to spot. Great option}

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593374
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-f-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-3823982 {AGS0 F, great numbers. Inclusions on the girdle near 6'oclock. Love this one}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3510689 {inclusions around girdle would be partially covered with prongs. Have a look at the table and decide if you would be bothered by the crystals}

There are more if none of these suit or are available.


 
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