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So my recent lab sapphire purchase is glass

MollyMalone

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A parenthetical P.S. re the Yvonne Raley ring: it weights less than 2 grams & the shank is very narrow, so I'm imagining you might think it too lightweight for routine wear.

YR's stated policy is that she does not accept returns-issue refunds on sale items. I personally don't purchase any colored gem that's non-returnable, unless I'm prepared to kiss the money away. Even when a vendor is super-conscientious about posting/sending photographic images or videos that mirror what s/he sees, it's exceedingly unlikely that your computer monitor or device's screen is color-calibrated like theirs. Nor do all colors "register" with each one of us in the same way.
Bottom line as I see it: There really is no satisfactory substitute for seeing a colored stone in hand, under various lighting conditions to see if-how it "shifts", and whether it "grabs" you.
 

YadaYadaYada

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A parenthetical P.S. re the Yvonne Raley ring: it weights less than 2 grams & the shank is very narrow, so I'm imagining you might think it too lightweight for routine wear.

YR's stated policy is that she does not accept returns-issue refunds on sale items. I personally don't purchase any colored gem that's non-returnable, unless I'm prepared to kiss the money away. Even when a vendor is super-conscientious about posting/sending photographic images or videos that mirror what s/he sees, it's exceedingly unlikely that your computer monitor or device's screen is color-calibrated like theirs. Nor do all colors "register" with each one of us in the same way.
Bottom line as I see it: There really is no satisfactory substitute for seeing a colored stone in hand, under various lighting conditions to see if-how it "shifts", and whether it "grabs" you.

Molly, The ring I bought isn't from Yvonne Raley, it's from another vendor but since the stone I did buy came back as glass I was considering Yvonne's pink sapphire ring.

I've asked the mods to delete the picture and link but I just want to make sure everyone knows I did not buy an Yvonne Raley ring that came back as glass, I purchased the ring from a vendor on Etsy and had it sent out to be remounted and they have told me it's glass.

I'm sorry, I was very scattered when I wrote this thread, I apologize for the confusion.
 

MollyMalone

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I understood that. Those comments of mine about the weight, or lack thereof, and thin width of the shank were directed at that ring of Yvonne's (even she acknowledges that it's "relatively lightweight").
 

MollyMalone

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Thanks Molly! Don't you think though that I still have a good case for a refund since there is a specific description that states that the stone has the same "composition and properties as a natural gem'? I mean, glass is not going to fit that description. Also when I measured the stone before mailing it out (but after my review) my husband and I measured 6mm not the 8mm that the listing claims.

ETA: It's not the cost that bothers me as much as the possibility that they knew it was not a lab stone.
Yeppers, 6 mm in diameter is appreciably smaller than 8 mm. But if they want to play hardball, you might consider agreeing to partial refund. The ring is no longer intact & the center "stone" got chipped after you received it.

Do you know if Ilya tested for its specific gravity a/k/a density? Glass is noticeably less dense/has a lower specific gravity than a sapphire. That is something the vendor could not have tested -- without removing the center stone from the ring, which seems very unlikely. Indeed, they didn't claim -- in that longwinded email response -- that they tested it for specific gravity.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Ah I didn't know about the specific gravity thanks for mentioning it.

I didn't hear back from Sara at Ivy and Rose so this is done for at least the next two days. Hopefully I will hear back on Monday so this can get resolved and I can put the whole thing behind me and move on, at least I will be smarter next time!
 

lilmosun

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The credit card company reps probably don't know anything about gems or the difference between glass vs lab or an appraisal vs a lab report. Assuming they confirm it is glass, could you pay Ivy & Rose to provide an appraisal from a GIA specialist and ask that it be specific like "glass - does not exhibit same properties of either natural/man-made corundum (sapphire)"?

And even if you are trying to work it out with the vendor, I would at least put a hold on payment by the credit card company. I had an issue once with a vendor who promised to make me whole. I disputed the charge after he failed to take agreed upon action in 30 days and warning him that I would put a hold in 10 days if I failed to hear back. I disputed it within the credit card window and they credited my statement. Months later I received a notice that the vendor disputed my claim denying he provided the service being disputed. He even sent the credit card company a copy of the receipt with the services covered. So the credit card company denied my claim and recharged me and said I had xx days to counter.

Lucky for me, I had a copy of the original receipt with the services stated (thank goodness), pictures, the original emails where he agreed to make me whole, a statement from my jeweler explaining why the work was done wrong, etc. So I disputed his claim with the credit card company and provided the documentation. In the end, the credit card company found in my favor and issued a refund...however, because he had been paid before I initially filed and he was refusing to give the money back, it was considered "written off debt" and thus taxable income to me.

Lesson learned - unless it's a vendor that I trust (and based on your correspondence to date, I wouldn't), let your credit card company know immediately so they hold payment until its resolved.
 

Karl_K

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With bare eyes an experienced person can tell sapphire from glass and looking at samples side by side anyone could. Before my eyesight went lousy I could tell you from 10 feet away with fair accuracy. With a loupe there is 0 question which is which.
There is a huge difference between them in appearance.
 

YadaYadaYada

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With bare eyes an experienced person can tell sapphire from glass and looking at samples side by side anyone could. Before my eyesight went lousy I could tell you from 10 feet away with fair accuracy. With a loupe there is 0 question which is which.
There is a huge difference between them in appearance.

You know that being the case, I'm surprised that I didn't hear back from Ivy and Rose yesterday. So is there any possibility that they are unsure and it could actually be something other than glass?

I am not experienced with colored stones so I claim ignorance, to be honest I bought this ring as a test run to buy a real certified pink sapphire in the future but I wanted to try it out to make sure I didn't tire of it before I went spending thousands of dollars.
 

Karl_K

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You know that being the case, I'm surprised that I didn't hear back from Ivy and Rose yesterday. So is there any possibility that they are unsure and it could actually be something other than glass?
I don't have anyway of knowing what is going on but anything is possible.
My reply was more directed at the specific gravity and lab report discussion.
Making a definitive synthetic and treatments call does take a very skilled lab and high priced tools but making a glass vs sapphire call is pretty easy.
Even high ri and leaded glass looks nothing like sapphire after a bit of training/experience even without a loupe.
The luster of the surface is different and the look of the material is very different.
 

MollyMalone

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With bare eyes an experienced person can tell sapphire from glass and looking at samples side by side anyone could. Before my eyesight went lousy I could tell you from 10 feet away with fair accuracy. With a loupe there is 0 question which is which.
There is a huge difference between them in appearance.

I don't have anyway of knowing what is going on but anything is possible.
My reply was more directed at the specific gravity and lab report discussion.
Making a definitive synthetic and treatments call does take a very skilled lab and high priced tools but making a glass vs sapphire call is pretty easy.
Even high ri and leaded glass looks nothing like sapphire after a bit of training/experience even without a loupe.
The luster of the surface is different and the look of the material is very different.
No matter how glaringly obvious the difference may be to you, Ilya, or anyone else, the etsy vendor's responding email made it clear they were not prepared to accept a return & issue a refund on the basis of another jeweler's say-so.

That's why I suggested testing for the specific gravity. It does not require an array of "high priced tools"; the read-outs can be easily, quickly photographed to serve as documentation; and I assume that Ilya -- who specializes in antique-vintage gems and jewelry -- is conversant with, and competent in, doing this.

I also assumed that the stone had already been pulled from the ring, but in re-reading Stephanie's posts, I'm not sure if the ring is still intact or not. Stephanie, is the stone still set in the ring or is it now loose?
 

YadaYadaYada

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No matter how glaringly obvious the difference may be to you, Ilya, or anyone else, the etsy vendor's responding email made it clear they were not prepared to accept a return & issue a refund on the basis of another jeweler's say-so.

That's why I suggested testing for the specific gravity. It does not require an array of "high priced tools"; the read-outs can be easily, quickly photographed to serve as documentation; and I assume that Ilya -- who specializes in antique-vintage gems and jewelry -- is conversant with, and competent in, doing this.

I also assumed that the stone had already been pulled from the ring, but in re-reading Stephanie's posts, I'm not sure if the ring is still intact or not. Stephanie, is the stone still set in the ring or is it now loose?

Hey Molly,

I don't know for sure because I didn't hear back from Ivy and Rose yesterday. It's possible that they did take it out because I asked them to make absolutely sure of their finding that it is glass before proceeding further with the original vendor.

I'm hoping to have some answers by Monday.
 

stracci2000

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So sorry this has happened to you, Stephanie.
I'm sure that most of us have been burned on a jewelry purchase at least once.
I certainly have. Hopefully you will be refunded.
 

MollyMalone

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Stephanie, if the stone is still in the ring, I would not ask Ilya to remove it for specific gravity testing, as I'm concerned a dismantling of the ring might be considered good reason to not accept a return for any kind of refund (in addition to the fact that there's been a chip since you received the ring).

If you're willing to pay Ilya for doing so, can he replicate, and memorialize, the same kind of tests that the etsy vendor said they performed; we know he can take magnified photos of gem stones that could show the facet junctions and the nature-extent of abrasion & has calipers to measure the diameter. And since it seems you're not asking him to make a new ring with another center stone he's sourced, that eliminates what the etsy vendor might say is a conflict of interest, disqualifying his report (should he ascertain via objective means that it isn't a synthetic sapphire).

p.s. It's occurred to me that it wouldn't be surprising if you receive a counter-offer from the etsy vendor: a refund of the price difference between a 8 mmsynthetic pink sapphire (now chipped) and a 6 mm simply glass fake stone, similarly chipped, on the theory that "makes you whole" even if the center stone is a smaller, glass fake. I'm clueless as to how you might determine whether the price difference they claim (if they do that) reflects reality. Karl, a Trade member, indicated it seems unlikely to amount to much.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Stephanie, if the stone is still in the ring, I would not ask Ilya to remove it for specific gravity testing, as I'm concerned a dismantling of the ring might be considered good reason to not accept a return for any kind of refund (in addition to the fact that there's been a chip since you received the ring).

If you're willing to pay Ilya for doing so, can he replicate, and memorialize, the same kind of tests that the etsy vendor said they performed; we know he can take magnified photos of gem stones that could show the facet junctions and the nature-extent of abrasion & has calipers to measure the diameter. And since it seems you're not asking him to make a new ring with another center stone he's sourced, that eliminates what the etsy vendor might say is a conflict of interest, disqualifying his report (should he ascertain via objective means that it isn't a synthetic sapphire).

p.s. It's occurred to me that it wouldn't be surprising if you receive a counter-offer from the etsy vendor: a refund of the price difference between a 8 mmsynthetic pink sapphire (now chipped) and a 6 mm simply glass fake stone, similarly chipped, on the theory that "makes you whole" even if the center stone is a smaller, glass fake. I'm clueless as to how you might determine whether the price difference they claim (if they do that) reflects reality. Karl, a Trade member, indicated it seems unlikely to amount to much.

That's a good point about the stone being removed, I don't know how in depth their testing of the stone is.

In all honesty although I know I might have to either eat the loss or not get a full refund, I'm not going to let on. If it's glass, I will ask for a refund and see what they say. Also as far as the chip, if the stone is actually glass as opposed to a lab sapphire it would chip far easier. I paid for the durability of a lab sapphire that I understand should have the same properties as a natural one. Anything less than that is a misrepresentation on their part that puts me at a disadvantage.

I know I may lose but I'm going to fight anyway and see what happens.
 
S

Squizabel

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Would you be satisfied if the vendor sent you an 8mm true synthetic pink sapphire? Ie what you paid for and expected to receive.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Would you be satisfied if the vendor sent you an 8mm true synthetic pink sapphire? Ie what you paid for and expected to receive.

I would have a hard time trusting them unless there was some sort of documentation that would prove I wasn't buying another piece of glass. This is not me trying to be difficult, if they made the error then they should be responsible and eat the loss. If I did accept a lab replacement stone from them and they knew the original stone was glass and misrepresented the stone on purpose, then where is the incentive not to do this to the next customer?

That is what I'm really struggling with, when you sell an item it should be 100% what you claim. This is not someone selling grandma's old ring, these people are two sisters who exclusively sell antique jewelry. If there was any question about the stone then they should have indicated in the listing that there was the POSSIBILITY it could be a glass stone. They didn't though, if they had then I wouldn't have bought it. The fact that they might have done this on purpose is what I'm having the problem with.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Did a little digging and I'm starting to think it might be paste. A paste stone could with enough added lead have as high of a refractive index as a lab sapphire. A paste stone would not be as durable coming in at a hardness of 5-6 which could explain how it was easily chipped.

I found a picture, maybe not a great one of my stone on my phone up close and one from farther away. Paste stones will look "swirly" inside.

Sad thing is, I like this stone, would admire it frequently while wearing it and in fact affectionately named it "Rose". Totally bummed out that this has turned into such an ordeal :confused:

IMG_2262.JPG IMG_2263.JPG
 

Karl_K

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To out of focus in the important areas to call material, but you can see the chip at 8-9 o'clock in the top pic.
I looks like to me any of them could have a chip like that, I would not consider it as being material indicative.
sapphire is very prone to corner abrasion.
Paste is a fairly easy call also with a loupe and sometimes without.
Sorry not trying to be confusing, just thinking out loud.
Not having the stone in hand I'm not in position to state any solid conclusions and this is a easy enough call I don't know why anyone with experience would get it wrong.
 
Last edited:

YadaYadaYada

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I haven't forgotten about you guys! Touched base with Sara yesterday at Ivy and Rose and they are very busy, she said she would be in touch by the end of the week.

In the meantime I sent the original vendor a message to keep them in the loop. I'm afraid it might come across a little strong but you know maybe that's a good thing that they know I'm not a pushover.

This was the message I sent them, I will keep you guys updated:

"I am writing to you to give you an update on where we are at to keep you in the loop.

The jeweler that has the stone had been busy the past couple of days but they have reached out and said they will be in touch by the end of the week.

I am a member of Pricescope, which is an online jewelry community and one of the trades people on the site suggested a density test which you had not cited in your previous message as to whether you conducted that test or not. Also regarding the refractive index you cited, if it is a glass stone with enough added lead, the refractive index could mimic a lab stone such as sapphire. In addition the hardness would only register 5-6 on a glass or paste stone which would explain how easily it chipped within just a weeks time.

You suggested in your previous email that perhaps the jewelry store wasn't experienced in certain ways and I got the distinct impression that there was a question about the competence since they had said they can't buff out a chip in glass. This store however came very highly recommended on the forum and has excellent reviews online so there should be no question as to their reputation or competence. In addition their inability to polish a glass stone is a moot point because I wouldn't want them to polish it anyways. I did not pay for a glass, paste or rock crystal stone, anything less than a lab sapphire (as stated in the listing) is not something I was interested in purchasing and I will expect a full refund if it is determined to be anything other than a lab created sapphire.

I will be in touch by the end of the week, hopefully sooner.

Thank you".
 

YadaYadaYada

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Just got a response to my message:

"Thank you for following up on your purchase!

I am glad to hear the other jeweler will be getting back to you shortly.

We 100% stand behind our pieces, and always do extensive testing before making any claims about gemstones. With that being said, we also always offer a full refund if the piece was not what it was described to be!

Both my sister and myself tested the stone, and both confidently concluded it was a lab created pink sapphire. We are both students at the Gemological Institute of America, where we will be graduating with our GG in several months. I hope this gives you confidence in the identification of the piece! In addition, we pride ourselves in our 100% positive feedback.

Please keep us updated! We look forward to hearing how the other gemologist determined the stone to be glass.

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience. We understand how disappointing it must be to be told your purchase was not what you thought it was. Our customer's satisfaction is extremely important to us. We look forward to this being resolved soon"
 

YadaYadaYada

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Just got this response from Ivy and Rose. I'm at a loss now and so frustrated and tired at this point. So initially they tell me it's glass and now they are talking about lab created without actually confirming this is in fact the case. If anyone is still reading and can give me some advice on what to do I would be so grateful. There is a part of the message I didn't copy where she says they would be happy to set the stone in one of their settings but that was the last thing she said.

Sorry for my delay!

"The Gem cutter explained that he does not have any types of equipment to measure the density. He explained that since the stone is lab created it is much much softer than any other stone/ diamond. He said that nicks and chips are prone to the softer stones. He has been in this industry for over 35 years, he has explained that no one has asked to provide tests on a lab created stone to figure out density. He also emphasized that the elements used to create your stone has no harm to the stone or value. He explained that all lab created stones are mostly preferred by many people rather than an actual diamond because of price and other environmental preferences. He reassured me that your stone is surely like other lab created stones. The only difference is the softness of each lab created colored stones.

I do trust his opinion and I do not think the seller was trying to hide anything from you or provide you with a faulty stone. In all, the reassurance from the GEM cutter expressed that all lab created stones are made differently with different elements."
 

elle_71125

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So they are saying it's not glass now? Oh, boy, that's quite a unfortunate situation to be in. I feel like they should have made absolutely sure it was glass before telling you it was. Now your left in a position of having accused the original seller of misrepresentation. :confused: Personally, I'd apologize to the original seller (that will hurt :( but what can you do?).

I don't have any good advice here. It is a beautiful color lab sapphire so I'd suggest setting it in something that will protect the edges and wear it with all the joy it can bring you. ;-)
 

msop04

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Just got this response from Ivy and Rose. I'm at a loss now and so frustrated and tired at this point. So initially they tell me it's glass and now they are talking about lab created without actually confirming this is in fact the case. If anyone is still reading and can give me some advice on what to do I would be so grateful. There is a part of the message I didn't copy where she says they would be happy to set the stone in one of their settings but that was the last thing she said.

Sorry for my delay!

"The Gem cutter explained that he does not have any types of equipment to measure the density. He explained that since the stone is lab created it is much much softer than any other stone/ diamond. He said that nicks and chips are prone to the softer stones. He has been in this industry for over 35 years, he has explained that no one has asked to provide tests on a lab created stone to figure out density. He also emphasized that the elements used to create your stone has no harm to the stone or value. He explained that all lab created stones are mostly preferred by many people rather than an actual diamond because of price and other environmental preferences. He reassured me that your stone is surely like other lab created stones. The only difference is the softness of each lab created colored stones.

I do trust his opinion and I do not think the seller was trying to hide anything from you or provide you with a faulty stone. In all, the reassurance from the GEM cutter expressed that all lab created stones are made differently with different elements."

Okay, so why did they tell you it was GLASS initially?
 

msop04

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So they are saying it's not glass now? Oh, boy, that's quite a unfortunate situation to be in. I feel like they should have made absolutely sure it was glass before telling you it was. Now your left in a position of having accused the original seller of misrepresentation. :confused: Personally, I'd apologize to the original seller (that will hurt :( but what can you do?).

I don't have any good advice here. It is a beautiful color lab sapphire so I'd suggest setting it in something that will protect the edges and wear it with all the joy it can bring you. ;-)

I started posting, got busy, then realized this was already posted. Yeah... I'd apologize to the Etsy vendor. I think you AND the Etsy vendor deserve an apology from Ivy and Rose as well. What a mess... :(
 

YadaYadaYada

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Yeah, they did me quite the favor with that proclamation! All sarcasm aside I am absolutely going to send an email to the vendor to apologize, no qualms about that at all.

From my understanding and research, lab created stones are supposed to have the same properties including hardness as their natural counterpart. However, Ivy and Rose seems to say this is not the case and that it varies.

It's just a mess but thank you for your kind words about my stone Elle! Next time a real sapphire with all the necessary paperwork will be the only way for me!
 
S

Squizabel

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Lab created stones do have the same chemical composition as the real thing. You were right.

Frankly, that email from Ivy and Rose reads... very poorly.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Lab created stones do have the same chemical composition as the real thing. You were right.

Frankly, that email from Ivy and Rose reads... very poorly.

Thank you, for a minute I thought I was losing my mind. So they don't confirm it is in fact a lab sapphire but at the same time no apology about the first email that stated it was glass.

One one hand I really don't want them to set the stone because of this experience but they already have the stone and it will be far easier and less hassle to have them set it. I can still get a nice setting so I can wear the ring and then at some time in the future get a real pink sapphire put in if I want.
 

Karl_K

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Never be afraid to pull the plug and back track if things are not going right.
I am confused as all get out by the reply you received from them.
It makes 0 sense.
Its either glass, sapphire or something else.
That is not rocker science!
Honestly the original seller has more credibility with me based on what you have posted.
It is not worth $75+ or so that a independent appraiser would charge. You could buy a new stone for far less.
That might be your best answer if you decide to go forward with your current maker, pick up a new stone for the ring.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Never be afraid to pull the plug and back track if things are not going right.
I am confused as all get out by the reply you received from them.
It makes 0 sense.
Its either glass, sapphire or something else.
That is not rocker science!
Honestly the original seller has more credibility with me based on what you have posted.
It is not worth $75+ or so that a independent appraiser would charge. You could buy a new stone for far less.
That might be your best answer if you decide to go forward with your current maker, pick up a new stone for the ring.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Karl. So in your opinion would it be foolish to have Ivy and Rose set it? They have a setting I like so my plan is to set the stone in their setting and then down the line get a real sapphire set in there.

I get the distinct impression that they didn't give the stone the time of day and whoever Sara talked to just flippantly wrote it off as glass probably without even looking at it. Then when pressed, whoever that was had no choice since I asked them to make a determination either way. This is the impression I get, could be wrong though.
 

lilmosun

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Lab created stones do have the same chemical composition as the real thing. You were right.

Frankly, that email from Ivy and Rose reads... very poorly.

I agree. Lab created stones have the same hardness...same chemical composition and properties...which is what the seller advertised.

It seems that Ivy and Rose is confusing lab-created with synthetic/simulants? At this point, the seller makes more sense...and assuming you didn't pay a lot, I would let it go.

fwiw - just because a vendor is highly recommended by others doesn't mean they are good at or knowledgeable about all things. Most of what I've read about Ivy and Rose is that many PSers love their inexpensive settings and bench...more so than being colored stone experts.
 
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