Question to cutters on darker stones

[Seaglow]

I have a couple of spinel rings that are cut on the shallow side, thus, there's some windowing.
But I was thinking that if they had been cut deeper, the color would appear darker. The stones are bright but they are windowed. The red stone has already had a recut according to my gem dealer but obviously, the cutter didn't close the window.

A good cutter will have the goal to show the maximum beauty of a stone. I would like to know if many cutters purposely cut a dark stone on the shallow side to have better stone color?

Here are the rings. Photos taken in natural daylight after noon. The colors of reddish stones are best at natural daylight, so these stones are darker in diffused light.

If you would cut stones these colors, how would you cut them? Thanks!

 

[Burmesedaze]

I'm not answering your question but I was recently shown a spinel 1.x ct similar in shade to the round one in the photos, but, with that big a window too.

I asked why oh why do the nicer shades have windows and was told if they didn't come with one, they'd be snapped up first by the dealers stationed in Mogok to be sold overseas at a larger price tag and not be passed into the local supply chain.

 

[chatoyancy]

I thought that cutters cut gems too shallow because they were trying to maximize carat weight of the finished product.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I am not a cutter but I remember one exceptional cutter who told me that adding facets to a gemstone will darken it. Some gems are cut with a window not only to preserve carat weight but to also allow more light into the stone which lightens it. Hope that helps.

 

[Seaglow]

Burmesedaze,
Is it just me or did you notice the region's preference for darker reds (brick red in some lighting)? Is it the same in Yangon? I prefer the red red but maybe it's because the stoplight red is super rare that darker reds are sold as top color? Honestly, the roundish stone is dark for my taste....though it is magnificent in daylight, it's garnety in some lighting. The orange holds much color in different lighting conditions, yet these darker reds are sold at a premium.

Chantoyancy,
Yes, in general, a shallow cut is used to maintain weight.

LisaRN,
Thanks for the info!

 

[minousbijoux]

I cannot speak for Burmesedaze or Yangon (pretty exciting if I could! ), but the sought after reds here in the States are stones that are the bright, saturated scarlet red with a secondary slightly on the purple side (rather than orange), and which hold their color in various lighting. The darker maroonish reds, brick reds, or reds which have brown in them, are more common and less expensive as a result.

 

[Seaglow]

Minous,

I agree and expect it that way! However, I have talked to some gem dealers who've said the brick reds are nice reds, and these dealers are the same who would classify nice blues as royal blues. Take the case of non-BE treated yellow sapphires in Thailand, canary yellow sapphires are secondary to whiskey colored ones, with even one dealer saying a bright sunny yellow is too light! The whiskey colored ones are preferred but I do think they don't hold a banner to the canary ones!

 

[minousbijoux]

Minous,

I agree and expect it that way! However, I have talked to some gem dealers who've said the brick reds are nice reds, and these dealers are the same who would classify nice blues as royal blues. Take the case of non-BE treated yellow sapphires in Thailand, canary yellow sapphires are secondary to whiskey colored ones, with even one dealer saying a bright sunny yellow is too light! The whiskey colored ones are preferred but I do think they don't hold a banner to the canary ones!

Thank you for sharing this information, Seaglow - its so interesting to see how much standards, preferences and ideals change from place to place.

 

[Burmesedaze]

Yes you are absolutely right. The darker reds, not lighter reds, command a higher price for rubies and spinels. But up to a point for colour. Same goes for the sapphires. The pigeon blood rubies I'm shown here look darker than what I google, which *could* be in part owing to the lighting.

The traffic stoplight red ruby my friend bought as a replacement E ring, is called rabbit's blood rather than pigeon blood.

 

[Seaglow]

Thanks for the info Burmesedaze! Maybe it is because most Burmese spinels tend to be a bit brick red in some lighting with the exception of Jedi spinels? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you saying that the pink modifier used to make the stone inexpensive and not a preference, except now that they also command high prices. So maybe historically other color modifiers such as purple, orange, even a bit of brown would command higher prices? Just a thought.

 

[Burmesedaze]

Yes the purples certainly did carry that premium over pink!
For reddish spinels the overwhelming majority here in the local market do go brick red under most non natural light sources.

 

[mastercutgems]

Just for what I have seen in cutting over 10k gems in 25 years; you will usually "darken" the gem to a certain degree when putting a brilliant cut on a medium to medium dark toned gem... Many reasons for the shallow "windowed" cut is to either lighten the gem by dumping light through the culet which will lighten tone of color, or the gem was wide and shallow and the cutter did not want to waste the precious gem material... There are hundreds of cuts out there for shallow gems that help hide the windowing to some degree. It gets a little complicated sometimes when dealing with dichroic and trichroic gems as they can do strange things when you blend in all the colors to one point in the culet... If you put a keel or non-brilliant design in the culet you can sometimes not effect the tone as much and eliminate the window; but on the red variation of spinel per say; many times they have looked a fine red in a windowed gem and then when pulling it all together to eliminate the window I have changed saturation or the appearance of the more pure red and have picked up a secondary brown. It seems to me in the past that the Sri Lanka material was more in the brown/red and purple/red saturation than the South East Asian material like Vietnam or Namya regions which seem to carry the more pure red after the re-cut or brilliant design. But many gems are like us; they have their own personality and finding one that matches you is the fun part.....

Just an ole humble opinion of a cutter. I am sure many will have their own opinion; but this was mine.

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[Seaglow]

Thanks Dana for sharing your knowledge. It was most helpful!

 

[PrecisionGem]

I wouldn't consider those two stones to be overly dark.

As far as cutting to close a window, it's kind of weird thing to say, as the reason the stone is windowed is because the angles are too shallow, so you really need to add material not take more away. Of course this isn't possible, so by recutting you need to alter the proportions of the stone, which on very shallow stones would require making the face up size smaller.

Cutting from rough, I would never intentionally make a window in a stone. This really isn't a strategy to brighten up a dark stone that I would find acceptable. My preference would be designs with fewer, larger facets, and odd symmetry.

 

[Seaglow]

Thanks Gene for your thoughts. Larger facets make sense.

The two stones (Burmese Spinels) have fantastic color in daylight and under bright LED lamp. But under diffused light I do find the red stone too dark.

Here are photos. First under LED lamp, the rest under different lighting (diffused, halogen). In my experience, same as Burmesedaze's, most Burmese red spinels turn a lot darker on many non-natural light.

 

[Arkteia]

You know, the one on the left is beautiful. Sometimes making an antique setting would do the trick, since real antique rings seldom have perfectly cut stones; but alas, antique serrings might not be the most favourable ones for spinels in general.

I honestly think the left stone has potential. The color on the sides is lovely. And maybe replacing the bulbs would do the trick? Recut is risky since the color might change, but after looking for two years at a Tanzanian spinel pear, I finally decided to recut it. And the cutter closed the window at a surprisingly little weight loss. The color is much better now; I am waiting for the setting to be finished.
It would be interesting to know what experts might say about the possibility of recut. (I am not giving you the advice, it is just a general question, for my curiosity, I often buy less-than-perfect stones). I had experience with several stones being recut, and apart from one spessartite, the color of the rest of them definitely improved. I had at least three spinels recut and twice it was incredibly beneficial. A mint garnet improved immensely after the window was closed.

 

[Seaglow]

Hi Arkteia,
Thank you for sharing your experience and pls share photos of your spinels once you get them. I think the stone if ever, can take a recutting with a smaller face. It's 2.35 carats, 8.20mm X 7.61mm with a depth of 4.82mm. It still will end up at least more than a carat for sure. I also have had some stones go through a recut. Mostly sapphires. However, Burmese red spinels are notorious to go brick red in many lightings but are glorious in natural light. The red spinels I have encountered from other sources such as of Vietnamese or African origin doesn't seem to turn as dark in diffused light but in general I think many red stones turn dark in diffused light. I have encountered very few red stones that can hold the color on all if not most lighting conditions. But as Dana had pointed out, closing a window is risking a chance to have a secondary brown, especially with most Burmese spinels having a characteristic of turning brick red in many lighting conditions. But I'm no cutting expert...so I still welcome all opinions.

 

[chrono]

It's hard to say, spinel rough tends to be flattish, so there is the element of
1: trying to save weight
2. trying to lighten the tone
3. Most buyers don't know or don't really care about cut

 

[deorwine]

Cutting from rough, I would never intentionally make a window in a stone. This really isn't a strategy to brighten up a dark stone that I would find acceptable. My preference would be designs with fewer, larger facets, and odd symmetry.

Thank you for this post -- it was really interesting! Now, I understand the fewer and larger facets; can you amplify why odd symmetry brightens up a dark stone?