Advice/feedback needed on tw0 1.8 RBs

[Sakin]

We have been working with a local jeweler to find a 1.8-2.0 RB in the in the 13-14.5k range. Both of the two diamonds listed below are eye clean. Diamond #1 has more pop than #2 when looking at it from a distance. Is there anything we might be overlooking?

Diamond #1
Certificate: GIA
Measurements - 7.86 - 7.90 x 4.78 mm
Carat Weight - 1.80 carat
Color Grade - I
Clarity Grade - SI1
Cut Grade – Excellent
Polish- Excellent
Symmetry – Excellent
Fluorescence – None
Depth - 60.7 %
Table - 61 %
Crown Angle - 33.0°
Pavilion Angle - 41.8°
Culet – None

Diamond #2
Certificate: GIA
Measurements - 7.77 - 7.82 x 4.86 mm
Carat Weight - 1.84 carat
Color Grade - I
Clarity Grade- VS2
Cut Grade – Excellent
Polish - Excellent
Symmetry – Excellent
Depth - 62.4 %
Table - 60 %
Crown Angle - 35.0°
Pavilion Angle - 41.4°
Culet - None

 

[gm89uk]

Are you open at all to eshopping? It's hard to come across diamonds as beautiful as you the ones you can find from the vast catalogue of diamonds available to you online. From the online pricescope approved vendors, you can get one that will almost surely 'outpop' diamond 1.

Both these diamonds are cut to poor proportions.

 

[Sakin]

Are you open at all to eshopping? It's hard to come across diamonds as beautiful as you the ones you can find from the vast catalogue of diamonds available to you online. From the online pricescope approved vendors, you can get one that will almost surely 'outpop' diamond 1.

Both these diamonds are cut to poor proportions.

If I put them in correctly, Diamond #1 has an HCA of 5.6 vs Diamond #2 has an HCA of 6.2. I am not too familiar with the grading system. We have been trying to stick to local jewelers. What is it about these diamonds that make them less superior than one that might have a 1-4 HCA rating?

 

[gm89uk]

I think it was actually the other way around, diamond 1 was 6.4, and diamond 2 is 5.6. HCA is a rejection tool, aim <2. 0.8 is not better than 1.8. Above 2, diamonds theoretically start to leak lights. Once you get to the 4+ diamonds really are performing rather poorly.

Here is a video comparing a diamond very similary proportioned to your second diamond compared to an ideal cut:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r__3Cb3jKbw

I found an old post from Gypsy:

"Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.3. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you."

Stick to these proportions:

Table: 54-58
Crown: 34-35 (35.5 is OK with pavilion of 40.6)
Pavilion: 40.6 to 40.9 (41 is ok with crown of 34)
Depth: 59.5 to 62.3

I strongly recommend you do some more background reading before committing to diamonds. This very community saved me from buying a 5.6 HCA diamond (which looked fantastic in the jewellery store lights and like a piece of glass outside it). I was convinced to shop online as I couldn't find any diamonds within the strict narrow specifications. I took the plunge and ordered a nice one online (especially risky being in the UK). Then I believed!

The community here are fantastic, experienced and will help you look for a beautifully cut diamond that would get the best bang for your buck. There are several jewellers with in house stones here as well, depending on your location.

If you must buy from local jewellers, try your best to stick to the above parameters and you will be much more pleased with the results, once you leave the deceiving halogen lights that saturates any poorly cut diamond with sparkle.

Watch this, with particular attention to the outdoor natural day light appearance of the stones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3qn2Tx6oI

 

[Sakin0]

gm89uk - Thank you for the posts and explanation. Sorry I had to register a new user because the forum noted that I am not authorized to view RockyTalk.

I had a concern with these two diamonds when in a dark environment. They seemed to be dull looking. In light both looked great under natural, artificial and yellow. I went to look at WF, JA and other diamond websites. If I were to go for a better HCA rating, it seems like the diamond in the 1.8 range would be out of our price range.

 

[gm89uk]

Lots of diamonds in your price range!

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.83-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-1003607 (although you'd have to enquire about those inclusions whether they are eyeclean)

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.85-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2375265


If you ask for a james allen advantage discount, and pay by wire, they would be within budget.

Whiteflash has the advantage of an excellent upgrade policy where you can choose any diamond of equal value or more whenever you want to change it.
These are superideals so command a premium and are the best money can buy
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3496145.htm

This seems like a fantastic price:

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/search?carat_min=1.75&color=H,I,G&crown_angle_max=36.0&crown_angle_min=34.0&depth_max=62.3&grading_lab=GIA,AGS&has_image=true&heirloom=true&make=Excellent,Ideal&order_by=wire_price+asc&pavilion_angle_max=41.0&pavilion_angle_min=40.6&polish=Excellent&shape=Round&symmetry=Excellent&table_size_max=69.0#diamond=R182-051694516

Looks like an eyeclean si2, but I would ask.


http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8247187-1.80-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-clarity.aspx?sku=8247187&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com
(photo can be seen here but more expensive:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/search?carat_min=1.75&color=H,I,G&crown_angle_max=36.0&crown_angle_min=34.0&depth_max=62.3&grading_lab=GIA,AGS&has_image=true&heirloom=true&make=Excellent,Ideal&order_by=wire_price+asc&pavilion_angle_max=41.0&pavilion_angle_min=40.6&polish=Excellent&shape=Round&symmetry=Excellent&table_size_max=69.0#diamond=R180-67178Z947)


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/1.75-platinum_select_round-EX-GIA-I-SI1-diamond-stock-14436-cert-

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/1.76-ascendancy_heart_arrows-EX-GIA-I-SI1-diamond-stock-15042-cert-7206326378 (another superideal cut like ACA, although I prefer the proportions of the ACA above. Similar upgrade policy as white flash).

For the stones above that don't have an ASET/idealscope provided I would request them, based on what you like and post them here so we can review.

Lurkers here snap up stones quickly that are posted so if any take your liking you should reserve them (for free) while you consider your options.

 

[ac117]

You want the diamond to sparkle and the most important thing is cut so don't sacrifice that! You could get close:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/1.71-platinum_select_round-EX-GIA--VS2-diamond-stock-14780-cert-6215667746
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.73-carat-i-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2182385
http://m.b2cjewels.com/dd/9011853/1-77-carat-round-diamond-i-color-vvs1-clarity?sku= - you'll have to ask for an image and IS
http://m.b2cjewels.com/dd/8901536/1-76-carat-round-diamond-g-color-if-clarity?sku=- ask for image and IS
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.73-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2315363 - ask for IS

ETA: gm89uk has also given you some nice suggestions!

 

[Sakin0]

ac117 and gm89uk - Again thank you for the posts. I reviewed the links and videos. After watching the videos I am concerned with our selection and disappointed because we looked at roughly 5-6 diamonds over the weekend. The two diamonds we gravitated towards had a high HCA scores. Ironically, these are the only two that had a high HCA score. The other 4-5 ended up in the 0-2 range. We passed on these for a mixture of reasons.

Over the course of the past 6 months we have visited our local jeweler 3-4 times now and we thought we were close this time. Is the recommendation from the both of you to pass on these diamonds based on the score? Should ask for idealscope image? I reviewed your recommendations and also tried to price out RBs JA/WF based on Gypsy's parameters. I feel like we are pricing ourselves out of the 1.8-1.9 range. I was slightly concerned with the number of inclusions on a few of he links, the clarity rating seemed high for the number of inclusions? Is this something I would need to watch for if deciding to go online?

 

[rainwood]

You've gotten great advice here already. Only you can decide what you care about the most, but no one advising you on PS is going to rank size over cut. For us, cut is always first. We differ only in what we're willing to sacrifice (size, color, clarity) to get a great cut.

As to your clarity question, the clarity grade is based on the aggregate. If a stone gets an SI1 with 4 different things listed on the certificate, it's because those items individually aren't worthy of an SI1 rating but the combination of items brings it to an SI1. Those of us who know that often want an SI1 with a number of items listed because then we know none of them individually are all that significant. What most people care about is that the stone is eye clean whatever the grading and specifically ask the online vendor about that. Some people, like me, only look at SI1 and SI2 because of the cost break for the lower clarity. Others want to be in the VS1 and VS2 range because that matters to them. And remember that your stone will be significantly smaller than the size of the photos or the certificate diagram so something might look huge there, it is much much smaller in reality.

If you're more comfortable buying locally, you'll likely get a lower quality stone and/or a higher price than if you bought online. That's not always true, but it's often true. But lots of people make that decision, and are happy with it. What you don't want to do is learn here on PS what makes a great diamond, ignore it, then buy something locally that ends up being disappointing. I understand your hesitation to buy online. The first time I bought a diamond online I was so nervous, spending all that money for something I'd never seen. It seemed crazy! I got it and loved it and every diamond since I've gotten online and have never been disappointed.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Lore]

These are superideals so command a premium and are the best money can buy
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3496145.htm

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/1.76-ascendancy_heart_arrows-EX-GIA-I-SI1-diamond-stock-15042-cert-7206326378 (another superideal cut like ACA, although I prefer the proportions of the ACA above. Similar upgrade policy as white flash).

Out of curiosity and for my own learning, given that both the WF and the GoG diamonds are superideals, what did you like more about the proportions of the WF over the GoG diamond?

WF:
Depth % 61.6
Table % 55.7
Crown Angle 34.6
Star 53.0
Pavilion Angle 40.6
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 77.0


GoG:
Depth 61.4 %
Table 59 %
Crown Angle 35.0°
Crown Height 14.5%
Pavilion Angle 40.8°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 80%

 

[Lore]

ac117 and gm89uk - Again thank you for the posts. I reviewed the links and videos. After watching the videos I am concerned with our selection and disappointed because we looked at roughly 5-6 diamonds over the weekend. The two diamonds we gravitated towards had a high HCA scores. Ironically, these are the only two that had a high HCA score. The other 4-5 ended up in the 0-2 range. We passed on these for a mixture of reasons.

Over the course of the past 6 months we have visited our local jeweler 3-4 times now and we thought we were close this time. Is the recommendation from the both of you to pass on these diamonds based on the score? Should ask for idealscope image? I reviewed your recommendations and also tried to price out RBs JA/WF based on Gypsy's parameters. I feel like we are pricing ourselves out of the 1.8-1.9 range. I was slightly concerned with the number of inclusions on a few of he links, the clarity rating seemed high for the number of inclusions? Is this something I would need to watch for if deciding to go online?

I've also shopped at local stores and when presented with their "top" stones within my budget, they always looked amazing to me in the store. However, I'd always key their specs into the HCA tool on my phone just to have a secondary data point and that's when they'd reveal a score of 4+. Unfortunately the stores don't have Idealscope or ASET viewers so there was no way for me to check light leakage, but I'm sure that those diamonds would have performed far worse than the WF ACA I ended up buying.

Have you considered giving the local jeweler a range of specifications of the diamond that perform well (i.e. depth and table %, crown and pavilion angles -- search forums to get a range) to see if they can source one for you? Then you could always compare that sourced diamond against the ones with 5-6 HCA scores and see for yourself. One challenge you're surely facing is you don't know what you don't know - meaning that if you never had a superideal in front of you to compare against those at the store, you wouldn't know what you could be leaving on the table... so getting them to source a diamond might be one way to work against this. I think the video linked earlier (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r__3Cb3jKbw) is a fantastic resource showing the potential differences.

 

[gm89uk]

ac117 and gm89uk - Again thank you for the posts. I reviewed the links and videos. After watching the videos I am concerned with our selection and disappointed because we looked at roughly 5-6 diamonds over the weekend. The two diamonds we gravitated towards had a high HCA scores. Ironically, these are the only two that had a high HCA score. The other 4-5 ended up in the 0-2 range. We passed on these for a mixture of reasons.

Over the course of the past 6 months we have visited our local jeweler 3-4 times now and we thought we were close this time. Is the recommendation from the both of you to pass on these diamonds based on the score? Should ask for idealscope image? I reviewed your recommendations and also tried to price out RBs JA/WF based on Gypsy's parameters. I feel like we are pricing ourselves out of the 1.8-1.9 range. I was slightly concerned with the number of inclusions on a few of he links, the clarity rating seemed high for the number of inclusions? Is this something I would need to watch for if deciding to go online?

Hi Sakin. Personally I wouldn't bother requesting an idealscope for the two stones you selected as they are guaranteed to show significant light leakage. Due to rounding errors etc, some stones around HCA 2-2.5, even up to 3 nearly can actually have very nice idealscopes, but in the 5s and 6s, you can guarantee they won't have good reflector images.

There are numerous options within your quoted budget, some with better clarities than others. JA links aren't wire prices and they are not with the james allen advantage discount. Diamonds with the clarities you are concerned about, you need to ask the vendor for a gemologist opinion regarding whether they are eye clean. Also they may look 'dirtier' than your diamonds purely because you haven't had the opportunity to see the two diamonds you selected as a x20magnification high resolution video. If you did, they probably wouldn't look too different...

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.83-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-1003607 the twinning wisps here are extremely thin and personally I don't think would be visible. Can I or anyone else in the forum guarantee this? No, you have to be proactive and ask the vendor for their opinion.

The members here have shortlisted a variety of stones for you within the budget you have selected, why are you stating your size requirement is not feasible? Do you have a lower budget than $14.5k?

I really do think you would be much more impressed with them... maybe not in a insanely bright jewellery store, but when you take it home to your normal diffuse lighting environment, where things are darker, and the light source is mainly from the top.

JA/B2C offer 30 day money back guarantee, and they will even pay for your return costs. If your funds allow, you have nothing to lose by ordering one that you found to be the best choice and seeing how you like it.

A well cut 1.7 will be brighter, edge to edge with much more of a presence than a poorly cut 1.8.

These are superideals so command a premium and are the best money can buy
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3496145.htm

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/1.76-ascendancy_heart_arrows-EX-GIA-I-SI1-diamond-stock-15042-cert-7206326378 (another superideal cut like ACA, although I prefer the proportions of the ACA above. Similar upgrade policy as white flash).

Out of curiosity and for my own learning, given that both the WF and the GoG diamonds are superideals, what did you like more about the proportions of the WF over the GoG diamond?

WF:
Depth % 61.6
Table % 55.7
Crown Angle 34.6
Star 53.0
Pavilion Angle 40.6
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 77.0


GoG:
Depth 61.4 %
Table 59 %
Crown Angle 35.0°
Crown Height 14.5%
Pavilion Angle 40.8°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 80%

The difference is a matter of personal preference, and I am not stating that ACA is superior to ascendancy cut as a rule, just in this instance I prefer the smaller table of the ACA. Combined with a 34.6 crown there is a higher crown height %, theoretically giving this stone more fire. In real life, the difference probably isn't that discernible and GOG have plenty of several brilliant fiery diamonds with table 59% videos on youtube. If I had a choice and the price difference wasn't a deal breaker I'd always pick a 55/56 table over a 59.