Are Diamonds Really Rare? Decide For Yourself...

[OoohShiny]

The value of MMD’s is really irrelevant and becomes more so as we move further into the future. The added value to MMD rough by design processes will determine the genuine value consumers will be willing pay for such a polished/designed MMD.

All these excluding jewelry/design/brand added values.

I feel confident in saying that we are all looking forward to what Gemconcepts might do with MMDs

 

[OoohShiny]

Wow, you’re comparing diamonds to people with cancer?!

Looking again at Garry's post, I think his point was that things that look the same on the outside are not identical on the inside:

95% of natural diamonds are 'different' (type I) and easy for people in stores to detect loose diamonds with inexpensive tools. All manufactured diamonds are Type II.
The rare type II natural diamonds need gemologists to test, but there are many companies making easy to operate detection equipment.
25% of natural diamonds have noticeable Blue fluorescence with cheap UV LEDs, 0% of manufactured diamonds have noticeable blue fluorescence.

 

[OoohShiny]

It's not totally clear - is that 'Wholesale' price on a generic 1ct MRB MMD or Moissanite??

 

[deorwine]

Wow, what a load of out of date and misleading rubbish.
And there is no way the synthetic diamond in the last page is a diamond.

Waaaaait, I realize this has nothing to do with the main conversation but I have to know how you know that it's not a diamond. Is it because a diamond would have different internal reflection angles so that you wouldn't be able to see through it in quite the same way? I don't have loose diamonds so I've never tried looking through the pavilion like that!

 

[denverappraiser]

Total worldwide diamond production in 2018 was148M carats according to the Diamond Producers Association. That’s rough stones and these are all companies that are subject to public reporting requirements. About 50-75% of that gets lost in the cutting process so the total worldwide production is on the order of 50M carats. 10 tons. That’s a lot of diamonds to be sure but it would fit in a single truck. That’s all the diamonds from every mine in the whole world, all year. The vast majority of those stones are crap. Most are tiny, like the things are around the bezel of your watch or in that $199 tennis bracelet at the mall. I can’t find the stats right now but clarity better than I1, color in the D-Z range, and a size bigger than half a carat is not even 10% of that.

That’s still a lot, but now we’re talking about a single pickup truck full. I don’t know what you think ‘rare’ means but by pretty much any definition this qualifies. It's certainly not the image critics want to portray of DeBeers scooping them up by the bucket full and stashing them in a secret warehouse in London.

https://diamondproducers.com/diamond-industry/productionstats/

 

[Dancing Fire]

Most of us know that. And may still choose a natural mined diamond. You may not make the same choice. That's up to you. I prefer to buy things that are "real". Not a laboratory copy of something real.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The value of MMD’s is really irrelevant and becomes more so as we move further into the future. The added value to MMD rough by design processes will determine the genuine value consumers will be willing pay for such a polished/designed MMD.

All these excluding jewelry/design/brand added values.

Garry the resale value question you asked is really irrelevant again, let’s take Lightbox as example, a 1ct MMD @ $800 per carat vs a natural 1ct @ $8,000 per carat, which will suffer more at the resale?

It is difficult to clarify my position Yoram.
I do not appreciate synthetic diamonds trading off natural diamonds as they currently are.

I do believe they have a very real place. They can and should replace low grade frozen off white spit.

But as you say, there is such an opportunity for innovation.
I have been saying that for more than a decade


Here in a 2008 letter to the editor at Rapaport magazine with some associates

OctoNus Publications : Letter to the Editor - Synthetic Appeal

legacy.octonus.com

e.g.
But what if man-made diamonds created their own new markets by developing a niche in exclusive luxury goods?

There is no reason why synthetic diamonds can't develop strong market positions given time and investment in branding. Some well-informed consumers have already found appealing attributes over natural diamonds. It is feasible that this could lead to even higher prices for synthetics than for natural stones.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It's not totally clear - is that 'Wholesale' price on a generic 1ct MRB MMD or Moissanite??

Sorry, I miscropped - the top says mossanite

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Waaaaait, I realize this has nothing to do with the main conversation but I have to know how you know that it's not a diamond. Is it because a diamond would have different internal reflection angles so that you wouldn't be able to see through it in quite the same way? I don't have loose diamonds so I've never tried looking through the pavilion like that!

Yes, you can not see straight thru a real diamond, man made or natural, like this image. It is glass or CGI image of a low RI material like glass - see image below.

Re out of date article: "De Beers actually mined considerably more rough diamonds than they sold. They maintain a large warehouse of uncut diamonds in London."
De Beers head office has been in Botswana (they are partners with the government).
The over stocking was a result of the Asian financial crisis in 1997 and led to the privitisation of the then public company because their assets were worth more than share value.

"De Beers still controls approximately 75% to 80% of the diamond rough supply."
Total rubbish - it is around 35% maximum, Alrosa in Russia is a larger or about the same share.

Very little of that entire article is accurate. Fake news.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

To all of you - "Ok. Boomer"

This thread reminds me of the many discussion on PS regarding future markets, future marketing, and how to appeal to the younger generation. But it is also an indication that the future is now.

 

[WillyDiamond]

I like Redheads, so you are rare to me!

On a serious note......I do not believe diamonds are rare. You walk into a diamond dealer, you look at diamonds, you want a 2 carat stone, they don't have it in stock, they tell you they can call it in. Is there a major diamond dealer that cannot call in a 2 carat stone or in fact many 2 carat stones for you to view? I think not. Diamonds not rare. We are lead to believe this to justify the price. It is not based on supply and demand, the pricing is formulated by a select few.

 

[MollyMalone]

I really wish that articles posted on websites included the date on which they first appeared & noted the date(s) and nature of of any updates/revisions.

According to WaybackMachine, that article seems to have been posted on the IGS website in January 2014. But even 6 years ago, DeBeers didn't have a massive inventory of stockpiled rough. De Beers sold off their "strategic stockpile" back in the early 2000's in conjunction with their heightened interest in settling price-fixing/other antitrust litigation in the courts & complaints to governing bodies in the EU, the US, and elsewhere.. Plus DB was the subject of a 1994 federal indictment here in the US for alleged price-fixing re synthetic industrial diamonds. Developing business in the USA couldn't happen unless and until the 1994 criminal matter was resolved & owing to a variety of events, being able to do business in the US mattered more to DB than it had in the past. DB pleaded guilty in 2004:

De Beers pleads guilty in price fixing case

De Beers pleaded guilty in a 10-year-old price-fixing case Tuesday and was fined $10 million fine as part of an agreement that would clear the way for the diamond giant to resume selling diamonds directly in the lucrative U.S. market.

www.nbcnews.com

Its US flagship jewelry store opened in NYC in June 2005:

DEBEERS BRINGS CARATS TO APPLE

When it comes to diamonds, size matters. No one knows this better than DeBeers, which will make its retailing debut in New York later this week with a display of one of the world’s largest, m…

nypost.com

Had Seth Rosen, the author of that IGS article, done any research himself, he also would have readily discovered that it had been years since DB's market share of the global rough supply was 75-80%; it stood at 35-36% in 2014 when he seems to have written that article:

De Beers market share set to pick up on Canadian mine opening

The company's market share has dropped from about 80% in the late ‘80s to roughly 35% today.

www.mining.com

It's a damned shame that an article seemingly endorsed by an association you'd think you can trust -- and bearing a banner headline that leads you to believe the author has accurately dispelled "myths and misconceptions" -- is so flawed.

 

[msop04]

Hello guys! I am new here and planning to get an engagement ring for my partner. Is size or quality more important? I know a diamond’s value is partly determined by size. Therefore a small, high-quality diamond can cost the same as a big lower-quality diamond, is that correct?

That is correct... you may want to start your own thread for more traffic, as this thread is about whether or not diamonds are rare.

 

[Bluery]

That was mean to OP. Also, I had a $50k budget, I chose a perfect MMD in a custom cut, and saved half of it. It wasn’t about affording anything, it was about preference. But go off...

@Batgirl76 You have serious issues and this is coming from a 30 year old MMD owner. Apart from the fact that you clearly can't afford mined diamonds, I also think you have some serious insecurities. Lab grown diamonds will always be sub-standard, just like a moissy will never be a diamond. Scurry back to reddit now sweetheart, where you can all sing praises to MMDs and moissys!! *Tra-la-la I hate people that can afford nicer things*

 

[msop04]

The budget/cost of mined vs. lab diamonds isn't always the issue. I say get what you want, regardless of the reason. What irks me is the self-righteousness of it all... on both sides. Don't judge. As @kenny has said time and time again, "people vary."

 

[Bluery]

I also own mined diamonds and I don’t take it that way. I think she’s passionate about MMDs and this forum is notoriously negative overall toward them. It feels a bit like the old guard is resisting change and defensive, sometimes.

Agreed but Batgirl seems to have a very strong agenda on making people who own mined diamonds feel like they are backwards and uneducated. So Batgirl's relentless 'mined diamonds are sold by old men who want to make a buck and talk down to me' is really quite an uneducated attack on many on Pricescope. Those who sell mined diamonds and those who buy them.

 

[Ella]

Folks, please be kind or people will be given a time out.

 

[OoohShiny]

I own several MMDs. I like them like I enjoy my cubics, but they are not the real thing.

Other than being chemically/physically virtually identical and indistinguishable without expensive assessment machinery?

 

[Ella]

The tone and tenor of posts matter a lot here, and we don’t insult the size of people’s stones. Be kind, or find another spot to post. There is a difference between explaining how someone’s actions make you feel or come across and insulting someone.

 

[msop04]

Agreed but Batgirl seems to have a very strong agenda on making people who own mined diamonds feel like they are backwards and uneducated. So Batgirl's relentless 'mined diamonds are sold by old men who want to make a buck and talk down to me' is really quite an uneducated attack on many on Pricescope. Those who sell mined diamonds and those who buy them.

Agreed.

ETA: get what YOU like... regardless of reason. Don't jump to conclusions and be all "Judge-y McJudgerson" if others don't have the same opinion as you do.

 

[msop04]

FWIW, I love the idea of MMD for other projects... I'm just waiting to see when/if the price drops. I've even toyed with the idea of selling my diamond and replacing it with a super ideal cut, higher color and clarity MMD... but they'll have to go waaaay down, and I'd have to get a good offer for mine!!

 

[SouthernElle]

Then why isn't this mansplaining comment moderated?



@Ella All I said was someone who owns a single smaller sized mined stone can't be the judge of which is better. I own several MMDs. I like them like I enjoy my cubics, but they are not the real thing.

Wooooooow. How rude and condescending your comments have been. This is why MMD advocates get frustrated. Stating that MMDs aren’t real diamonds is simply false. I can afford a $30-50K mined diamond. The thought of spending that when there are REAL alternatives seems silly to me. Alternatives that will continue to become more environmentally friendly. Alternatives that don’t leave a gaping hole in the earth. I don’t tell people NOT to buy mined diamonds, it’s each person’s choice. I don’t judge how someone chooses to spend their money, so I think it’s ridiculous to try to dissuade someone from purchasing a MMD because why? I honestly don’t get why anyone cares which type of diamond someone else buys.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I just want to suggest that JamieC may be an old troublemaker who has made his appearance on pricescope under different names, but always to create discord. If its the same individual he has been kicked off ebay, and most other sites. His main thrust used to be that treatments were undisclosed and the industry itself was dishonest. He has been baned from Pricescope many times under different names. but his real name was Jamie. He is a nasty guy, this Jamie. Its his MO


Annette

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Rarity of natural diamonds? While there could be motherloads of diamonds deep in the Earth, what makes them rare is the unique set of conditions needed for them to form and the infrequency of the geological events that bring them to the surface from 20 miles beneath the Earth's crust. Further adding to the exclusivity and cost of natural diamonds are the resources required for bringing them to market.

A couple of recent quotes speak to increasing scarcity:

"Rio Tinto said the main reason for shutting down Argyle was not that there was a lack of demand, but that the mine’s remaining stones were not valuable enough to extract, which involves sifting through 100 tons of a rock called kimberlite to collect a single carat."

Canada is now the world’s third-biggest diamond producer, behind Russia and Botwsana.

"Ekati and sister mine Diavik, located 210 kilometres (130 miles) south of the Arctic Circle, are now old, tired and running out of diamonds; they will likely both close soon. So far, the mines that were designed to replace them aren’t faring well either."

Synthetic diamonds on the other hand are being grown in quantity now by dozens of factories and a race to the bottom has already begun in terms of price. And we are in the early days!

"The retail price of a gem-quality man-made diamond has nearly halved over the past two years while wholesale prices have dropped threefold, consultants Bain & Company said in a report this month."

And this trend should surprise exactly nobody. We have over a hundred years of market history to look at with other synthetic gems, and if synthetic diamonds obey the same economic laws of supply and demand as the others have, they too will be selling for prices reflecting costs to produce at scale rather than having any relationship to the market for natural mined diamonds.

From a social responsibility perspective, one must look at the big picture. Costs vs Benefits to society. And from that perspective, the natural diamond industry has a beneficial impact on millions of people worldwide.

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

Thank you, @Texas Leaguer for so much information. I was recently looking for just this as I anticipated a debate that never came to fruition. Maybe one day,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Synthetic diamonds on the other hand are being grown in quantity now by dozens of factories and a race to the bottom has already begun in terms of price. And we are in the early days!

As I said many times on PS...MMD will sell for XX per lb in the future.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A few minor corrections (with my geologist hat on this time):

Rarity of natural diamonds? While there could be motherloads of diamonds deep in the Earth, what makes them rare is the unique set of conditions needed for them to form and the infrequency of the geological events that bring them to the surface from 20 miles beneath the Earth's crust. Further adding to the exclusivity and cost of natural diamonds are the resources required for bringing them to market.
100 to 200 miles, not 20. The earth has cooled and we do not get volcanoes that deep anymore. but there will be tons of diamonds still down there.
A couple of recent quotes speak to increasing scarcity:

"Rio Tinto said the main reason for shutting down Argyle was not that there was a lack of demand, but that the mine’s remaining stones were not valuable enough to extract, which involves sifting through 100 tons of a rock called kimberlite unusually this is the only commercial Lamproite mine in the world. The search was started in 1972 by my good friend Ewen Tyler who also found the Ellendale (yellow diamonds famously mostly sold thru Tiffany) and Merlin mines (largest ever diamond found in Australia. to collect a single carat." richest in ct wt in the world, but cheapest by far.
Ewen and I are investors in a possible new mine well south of Ellendale and Argyle. If anyone is interested we are on a round of investment shortly. Virtually every soil sample has diamonds in it. Very exciting.

 

[WillyDiamond]

I would love to see some numbers from people other than the Trade.

 

[OoohShiny]

Ewen and I are investors in a possible new mine well south of Ellendale and Argyle. If anyone is interested we are on a round of investment shortly. Virtually every soil sample has diamonds in it. Very exciting.

What would be the minimum investment in that sort of thing?

I can scrape together some small change and a packet of chewing gum right now? lol

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

What would be the minimum investment in that sort of thing?

I can scrape together some small change and a packet of chewing gum right now? lol

10's of thousands OS. A few million chewing gums. They are not listed - private small but regulated company.
PS in the fluoro thread I made a new poll topic.