Trump in Ohio.

[telephone89]

I think the main argument is that voting is a RIGHT. Why should one have to jump through a hurdle over their rights? People have fought long and hard and died for that right, but you want to make it difficult for some - why?
Why does texas allow someone to vote with a GUN ID but not a student ID?
How much does it cost to obtain all the necessary documents to obtain a govt ID? Even if the ID is free you can't just walk up and get one willy nilly. How many additional trips/visits/forms does it take to obtain those documents?

@the_mother_thing
How do these same people get to/from everywhere else in life? Work, school, grocery store, doctor appts, visits with family, shopping malls, etc.?
-Many low income people view most of these as luxuries and don't. Yes, they can take transit to and from work/school, but if you can't take a day off work, it doesn't matter how you GET to the DMV if it's closed, because of working hours. Doctors appointments? You really think low-income folk put that at the top of their list in the shitty healthcare system that is the USA? C'mon now.

What do these same people do when they are sick and/or have a doctor appt?
They don't skip work for a doctors appointment. They go to work sick. The USA has no federal law requiring sick leave. More than a few low income folk will work through whatever sickness they have unless it requires the ER. Your privilege is showing [eta - this comes off very "let them eat cake?"]

@redwood66
IDs are required for so many more things so to me this argument is not valid. You cannot get medical care without an id unless it is in an ER and life threatening
What else do you need an ID for that is considered a right? You need ID to buy liquor, not a right. Drive a car, not a right. Go to a doctors office, not a right (as you say the ER doesnt require ID).

Why are some people trying to make controlling who is in power more difficult?

 

[redwood66]

@redwood66
IDs are required for so many more things so to me this argument is not valid. You cannot get medical care without an id unless it is in an ER and life threatening
What else do you need an ID for that is considered a right? You need ID to buy liquor, not a right. Drive a car, not a right. Go to a doctors office, not a right (as you say the ER doesnt require ID).

Why are some people trying to make controlling who is in power more difficult?

To purchase a firearm. It is not about controlling who is in power, it's about protecting the voting process.

 

[telephone89]

To purchase a firearm. It is not about controlling who is in power, it's about protecting the voting process.

Purchasing a firearm isn't a right. If someone doesn't have the money, do they just get a free one?

 

[redwood66]

Purchasing a firearm isn't a right. If someone doesn't have the money, do they just get a free one?

Now that argument is disingenuous and silly. Possessing one is a right and you need an id to exercise that right legally. You asked the question and I answered it. Are you saying that poor people should not be able to purchase a firearm since it is too difficult to get an id? Or should they get one without it because it is too difficult to get an id? Or just buy one from their neighbor in his garage down the street with no id?

 

[the_mother_thing]

Purchasing a firearm isn't a right. If someone doesn't have the money, do they just get a free one?

How else do you suggest one acquire a firearm? By stealing one?

So the grocery store is a luxury? Is that the same grocery store that accepts WIC/SNAP/nutrition benefits for low-income families? If people aren’t going to the grocery store/eating, how are they even alive and able to vote? By your position, they surely cannot afford to dine out at a restaurant. Furthermore, how do they even get to the polls to vote? And how are they buying diapers for the babies that are supposedly keeping them from getting to the ID agency? Excuses ...

Many ID agencies (and doctors offices, urgent care centers, etc.) have extended hours, weekend hours, etc. Our DMVs open at 7 a.m. and have Saturday hours as well as mobile set-ups that travel around to different areas in order to provide access to citizens’ needs. There’s an urgent care clinic on just about every street corner these days with all kinds of hours, so sorry - not buying the “they don’t get medical care” excuse either.

It’s not ‘privilege’; it’s just excuses ... and that is a well that NEVER dries up when one wants to argue why someone shouldn’t have to do something.

 

[telephone89]

Now that argument is disingenuous and silly. Possessing one is a right and you need an id to purchase it. You asked the question and I answered it. Are you saying that poor people should not be able to purchase a firearm since it is too difficult to get an id? Or should they get one without it because it is too difficult to get an id?

Just because you don't understand what the actual amendment says or means does not mean the argument is disingenuous or silly.
There are also many states and places in the US that DON'T require an ID to buy a gun. So it's actually easier to obtain a weapon than to vote!

 

[redwood66]

Just because you don't understand what the actual amendment says or means does not mean the argument is disingenuous or silly.
There are also many states and places in the US that DON'T require an ID to buy a gun. So it's actually easier to obtain a weapon than to vote!

To purchase a firearm legally it is required to show an id in every state in the US so this is absolutely incorrect. Private transfers are legal in some states.

 

[telephone89]

"In 2013, a ThinkProgress analysis found that while in every state you need proof of ID to vote, in 39 states you can buy an assault rifle at gun shows or online without a background check and with no proof of ID. About 40 percent of gun purchases in the United States happen through this “gun show loophole.” Florida is one of those 39 states."

 

[redwood66]

"In 2013, a ThinkProgress analysis found that while in every state you need proof of ID to vote, in 39 states you can buy an assault rifle at gun shows or online without a background check and with no proof of ID. About 40 percent of gun purchases in the United States happen through this “gun show loophole.” Florida is one of those 39 states."

I don't know why you are arguing this with me? I want people to show an id for purchasing a firearm and for voting. Both are rights. I was answering your question.

 

[Ally T]

Now that argument is disingenuous and silly. Possessing one is a right and you need an id to exercise that right legally. You asked the question and I answered it. Are you saying that poor people should not be able to purchase a firearm since it is too difficult to get an id? Or should they get one without it because it is too difficult to get an id? Or just buy one from their neighbor in his garage down the street with no id?

Why do people have a right to possess a firearm? Do you personally have a gun? And have you ever had to use it & why? Genuine questions - I really am a very non-confontational person

I just don't understand & cannot get my brain to compute this gun thing, which I know is going off topic.

 

[telephone89]

I don't know why you are arguing this with me? I want people to show an id for purchasing a firearm and for voting. Both are rights. I was answering your question.

You *want* people to have to show ID to buy a gun, okay great. But it's NOT the law.

My question was "what else do you need ID for that is a right?"
You answered to buy a gun.
1) buying a gun isn't a right
2) buying a gun doesnt always require ID.
I'm trying to point out where you are wrong, and how that is different to voting.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Now that argument is disingenuous and silly. Possessing one is a right and you need an id to exercise that right legally. You asked the question and I answered it. Are you saying that poor people should not be able to purchase a firearm since it is too difficult to get an id? Or should they get one without it because it is too difficult to get an id? Or just buy one from their neighbor in his garage down the street with no id?

Maybe they could just steal one, but only if they’re not ‘privileged’. Us ‘privileged’ folks have to keep on abiding by the law ... pay, show ID, take those pesky safety classes, etc.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I have a sneaking suspicion more energy has been expelled in this country arguing against a voter ID law than would have been necessary for the ID-less population to actually get a freaking ID.

 

[redwood66]

You *want* people to have to show ID to buy a gun, okay great. But it's NOT the law.

My question was "what else do you need ID for that is a right?"
You answered to buy a gun.
1) buying a gun isn't a right
2) buying a gun doesnt always require ID.
I'm trying to point out where you are wrong, and how that is different to voting.

Possessing a firearm is a right, voting is a right. Neither are compulsory in the US, though in some countries it is for voting. Don't you want to make sure that people who are voting are eligible to do so?

 

[Calliecake]

I can’t understand why some gun owners are against a national database. Our cars are registered and licensed. Why isn’t it reasonable to expect guns to be registered and licensed? We need a national database. If you own a gun you should held responsible for it.

@Alex T , A very large percentage of Americans want AR15 and AK47 guns banned along magazines limited to a small number bullets. We all know guns are the problem. Take the guns out of equation and there are no mass shootings.

 

[Octo2005]

“Inconveniences” suck, but none of these appear to be targeting/limited to any one race, religion, gender, etc. We ALL contend with these and other inconveniences at one point or another in our everyday lives, and we all manage to do what we need to, survive the day, and go on to the next. It may not be ‘simple’, but rarely is anything in life is ‘simple’.

Bill Gates’ “reality” isn’t my reality. And my reality isn’t the same as my neighbor’s reality, or that of the random person in the next city/state over. ‘Society’ is not cloned, people don’t make the same decisions/choices in like situations, nor prioritize things the same way, so this viewpoint that “because someone else has it better/worse than me means I should/should not have/do X” generally grinds my backside a bit, as does making excuses for someone else not doing something that laws state should be done by everyone. People will always find an excuse to not do something, even when that ‘something’ is for their benefit/in their interest.

:steps_off_soapbox:

My point was more that while these things are inconveniences for some, they can be roadblocks for others. More to the point that the system needs improving than to suggest that it should be done away with.

Yes, there are many that will always find excuses. That unfortunately applies to many things in life.

 

[JPie]

Voter ID laws are a solution looking for a problem. If anyone cares about facts, here are reasons why:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...-trump-says-theres-substantial-evidence-vote/

That said, I am fine with requiring ID to vote so long as we start accepting any form that's issued by a local or state government entity, such as a low-income housing office, or if the process of getting an ID from the DMV was greatly simplified so it's no longer a burden on low-income families.

 

[Calliecake]

Another day in America. They just evacuated the USA Today Headquarters because of a man with a weapon. The insanity never ends here.

 

[msop04]

Years ago we were living in Alabama and I needed to get a new drivers license. There was only 1 DMV in the large metropolitan city (for Alabama) where I lived. So I gathered all the documents that I needed, got in my car and drove the 30 minutes to get my new license. I was there waiting for 3 1/2 hours! Now don't get me wrong, I was not happy about this, but because I am fortunate, it was merely an inconvenience.

I live in AL, and we only have a very few metropolitan cities... all of which have multiple DMVs. Where did you live that only had one DMV?

 

[redwood66]

Why do people have a right to possess a firearm? Do you personally have a gun? And have you ever had to use it & why? Genuine questions - I really am a very non-confontational person

I just don't understand & cannot get my brain to compute this gun thing, which I know is going off topic.

The Bill of Rights is where this comes from @Alex T and you can read more about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Yes I do personally have multiple firearms but am not comfortable discussing self defense usage on the internet. I enjoy shooting with my family and the competitive aspect of shooting. We hunt, though not in recent years as processing the meat has become quite expensive in our area and we are trying to cut down on red meat. I am able to defend myself with a firearm and continually train and take courses for doing so. I enjoy it and it keeps my coordination skills from diminishing as I get older. I don't live in fear as some suggest is the case of gun owners, and I am not the person who never leaves the house without a weapon on me. Firearms aren't a stigma or a grail to me, they are a tool and a hobby item, nothing more. I have used them since I was a kid on the family ranch and then in my career in law enforcement.

I hope this answers your questions? If you have any others I am happy to oblige.

 

[Ally T]

The Bill of Rights is where this comes from @Alex T and you can read more about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Yes I do personally have multiple firearms but am not comfortable discussing self defense usage on the internet. I enjoy shooting with my family and the competitive aspect of shooting. We hunt, though not in recent years as processing the meat has become quite expensive in our area. I am able to defend myself with a firearm and continually train and take courses for doing so. I enjoy it and it keeps my coordination skills from diminishing as I get older. I don't live in fear as some suggest is the case of gun owners, and I am not the person who never leaves the house without a weapon on me. Firearms aren't a stigma or a grail to me, they are a tool and a hobby item, nothing more. I have used them since I was a kid on the family ranch and then in my career in law enforcement.

I hope this answers your questions? If you have any others I am happy to oblige.

Thank you for answering my questions! I actually really like the idea of target shooting, I have to admit. I have used a bow & arrow on a few occasions & turned out to be quite a good shot. I reckon I could shoot a tin can off a wall One of my neighbours travels up to the Scottish Highlands to hunt each autumn, which he has a license for. He has a shotgun due to being a farmer, so he goes with farmer friends to an organised event where the deer & game birds need to be kept under control. The animals get butchered & prepared on site, then packed in ice. And I gratefully receive some venison & pheasant that comes my way every year. He always ends up with too much, so hands it around the village. Delicious!

ETA: Of course, I *think* I could shoot a tin can off a wall, but the reality is that I'm pretty crap at the summer fete coconut shy!

 

[redwood66]

Thank you for answering my questions! I actually really like the idea of target shooting, I have to admit. I have used a bow & arrow on a few occasions & turned out to be quite a good shot. I reckon I could shoot a tin can off a wall One of my neighbours travels up to the Scottish Highlands to hunt each autumn, which he has a license for. He has a shotgun due to being a farmer, so he goes with farmer friends to an organised event where the deer & game birds need to be kept under control. The animals get butchered & prepared on site, then packed in ice. And I gratefully receive some venison & pheasant that comes my way every year. He always ends up with too much, so hands it around the village. Delicious!

ETA: Of course, I *think* I could shoot a tin can off a wall, but the reality is that I'm pretty crap at the summer fete coconut shy!

It is fun and requires skill. So nice your neighbor shares! I added that we have cut down on the red meat because the doctor says we should which is a bummer because I love venison. Bird hunting is something I was never into because I hate plucking birds.

Edit - I had to google coconut shy LOL.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I'm a bit behind, but thanks Octo-mom for your reply. I wasn't just thinking about Gov't IDs which is the method most talked about in this decade. I used to have a voters ID card for many, many yrs, that was sent to me after I registered. Where I live you can register at any library at any time. Most people have drivers licenses so this does not present a problem. The Founding Fathers did not expect everyone to vote. (that's from some memory--cant prove that now) I think it is better for those not interested or aware of what the issues are to not vote. Thanks for looking up those posts for that vendor. I'm so computer illiterate.

Having things easy or given without earning is not what made America great. Voting is a right. Let people use it.

Annette

 

[the_mother_thing]

Another day in America. They just evacuated the USA Today Headquarters because of a man with a weapon. The insanity never ends here.

It was a false report.

WASHINGTON — USA TODAY's headquarters in McLean, Virginia was evacuated Wednesday amid a heavy police presence after what authorities said turned out to be a mistaken report of a person with a weapon at the suburban Washington office.

 

[Calliecake]

Thank goodness!

 

[Octo2005]

Speaking to privilege. I am only suggesting that we should try to be more cognizant of the advantages that come with levels of different socioeconomic status. It's not an excuse. It irritates me to no end when we flippantly state that it's an excuse and say "I did this or that, so everyone else should be able too", without acknowledging that but for the innate privileges that your were born into (ie..Race, religion, socioeconomic status of your family, and even where you were lucky or unlucky enough to be born) and advantages/opportunities you have earned thru socioeconomic gain, you may or may not have been able to achieve those thing.

To ignore that some start closer to the finish line and some (no matter how hard they work) will never get there, benefits no-one in our society and only contributes to the widening disconnect between the working-poor, middle and upper classes. Acknowledging that some are disadvantaged is not making an excuse. Blaming those who struggle and accusing them of not trying hard enough is not acceptable and allows us to develop a "them" vs "us" mentality.

I read an interesting book a few years back Nickel and Dime: On (not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. It was enlightening to say the least. The author leaves her cushy suburban life and goes undercover trying to live off of minimum wage. This edition includes the original book and the authors follow-up, done ten years later. It was eye-opening to step into the day-to-day life of the working poor and see some of the struggles that never would have occurred me.

 

[redwood66]

I don't understand the need to lecture on privilege as if the person you are talking to does not understand the plight of the poor or disenfranchised. You don't know anything about anyone else here other than what we tell you or if you know us IRL. Voting is one particular aspect of being an American citizen that I, and many others, personally hold sacred and want to be protected from outside influence of any kind. We should absolutely make it easier to do so within the confines of being eligible. Other far poorer countries require id to vote.

 

[JPie]

Speaking to privilege. I am only suggesting that we should try to be more cognizant of the advantages that come with levels of different socioeconomic status. It's not an excuse. It irritates me to no end when we flippantly state that it's an excuse and say "I did this or that, so everyone else should be able too", without acknowledging that but for the innate privileges that your were born into (ie..Race, religion, socioeconomic status of your family, and even where you were lucky or unlucky enough to be born) and advantages/opportunities you have earned thru socioeconomic gain, you may or may not have been able to achieve those thing.

To ignore that some start closer to the finish line and some (no matter how hard they work) will never get there, benefits no-one in our society and only contributes to the widening disconnect between the working-poor, middle and upper classes. Acknowledging that some are disadvantaged is not making an excuse. Blaming those who struggle and accusing them of not trying hard enough is not acceptable and allows us to develop a "them" vs "us" mentality.

I read an interesting book a few years back Nickel and Dime: On (not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. It was enlightening to say the least. The author leaves her cushy suburban life and goes undercover trying to live off of minimum wage. This edition includes the original book and the authors follow-up, done ten years later. It was eye-opening to step into the day-to-day life of the working poor and see some of the struggles that never would have occurred me.

Well said, thank you.

I think that a lot of Americans have a tendency to consider struggling to be a moral failure, and I suspect that's rooted in the Puritan work ethic. Sometimes, people who struggled and made it seem to be the most judgmental of those who haven't. I've seen it in the comments here and with my relatives. The attitude is, "If I could do it then why can't you? I had to earn everything the hard way and no one should get a free ride on my dime!" I have no idea if these people's struggles made them bitter or what.

 

[Octo2005]

I live in AL, and we only have a very few metropolitan cities... all of which have multiple DMVs. Where did you live that only had one DMV?

What a small world!

We lived in Mobile. It was over ten years ago, so I don't remember all of the details, but I do remember it being awful.

I may have been limited because I was transferring from an out-of-state license. Or maybe, I am just spoiled since I can usually go for a renewal and be done in less than 10 minutes.

P.S. It was bugging me thinking about why I would wait for so long, so I just did a quick google search and you are correct there are 5 listed for Mobile, but only 2 in Mobile proper. However, I assume at the time the reciprocal license played a part. Looking at the locations and the sprawl of the Mobile area, if you don't have a vehicle, getting there can be difficult.

To put it in perspective, I currently live in a neighboring county to a large county with one of ours states major metropolitan areas (40 minutes outside of the city). Where I live is less populated and has a mix of residential communities and rural areas - I have 6 within a 15-20 minute drive.

 

[Gussie]

@Alex T just one example of gun ownership - I am not a big gun person. I believe in the right of ownership but have never felt the need to have one. I used to target shoot with my grandfather and it was lots of fun but I haven't done it in years. He left me an antique revolver when he died and I do cherish it even though I haven't ever fired it. With that said, we just bought a lakehouse in a very remote place. It is 30 minutes from a tiny town. If someone were to break in, 911 probably wouldn't do a bit of good. It would take at least 20-25 minutes for help to arrive. I am planning to get a handgun for my own protection. I stayed there for 4 nights by myself and I think I need it just in case. It will of course be locked up in a bedside safe and I will take a gun safety course. This is an example of why those who live in rural areas are pro 2nd amendment.