Trump in Ohio.

[JPie]

@monarch64 I wrote that anyone still supporting Trump today is inured to reason and doesn’t care about social justice. You disagreed and said they could be reasoned with, and I asked for proof. It was a simple question, and I don’t think there’s anything out of line or offensive about asking someone to back up a statement.

Is it possible the crux of the issue is that you don’t appreciate my saying that your friends and neighbors can’t be reasoned with? If so, I admire your loyalty to them.

 

[monarch64]

It’s not that I have loyalty to them. It’s simply that I know how they operate and what they respond to that the rest of the “world” seems to fail to understand. It’s a know-your-audience thing.

Asking for proof has an inherently negative “I don’t believe you show me the receipts” quality about it that tends to shut down conversation. Perhaps it can’t be described as offensive or out of line to you, but to me it came across really negatively.

Trump’s people zeroed in on his target audience and took control. Hillary thought she had it in the bag and didn’t do enough to relate to or address the people Trump was elected by. The same thing is going to happen in the upcoming election unless people get it through their heads that they can’t just force their idealistic views on those who are at the very extreme opposite end of the scale of progress.

Meet in the middle. Don’t approach with hostility. Come in peace. Things don’t have to be so hard.

(Things I’ve learned from 2 failed marriages in rapid succession. Applies to most things in life.)

 

[arkieb1]

The bottom line is if Monny and I have converted 1 or more people into rethinking about voting for Trump again, then that's one less supporter he has. I'll take that any day over doing nothing. @JPie - I understand what you are saying, the people you have encountered are so entrenched in their beliefs trying to change their minds has been pointless. I would say move on, but keep promoting the message.

If I was a betting person I'd wager that there is a 75%+ chance of Trump being re-elected does that make me lose hope? Yes and no, yes because that is a huge mountain to climb and no because he was never predicted to win the election in the first place, proving anything can happen.

The starting blocks at the base of that mountain is understanding why so many Americans live in fear and how to overcome or solve those fears. Yes, I understand the left is sick and tired of people telling them they need to understand the right more, but are they really doing anything about meeting them half way? Only time will tell.

 

[the_mother_thing]

 

[Matata]

@JPie, @monarch64, @arkieb1 .... What all of you have stated is true. It's merely the act of being human that we: lose hope and regain it; experience frustration, compassion fatigue, anger and grief; build walls to shield ourselves from negativity. On a daily basis, I swing between JPies screw it and monarchs and arkies optimism and belief that persistence may change attitudes. I believe it's ok to feel all the good and all the bad and that the scale between the two doesn't have to be, and given human nature, can't be perfectly balanced 100% of the time. Hugs to all 3 of you wonderful and articulate women.

 

[soxfan]

Does anyone besides me have family that voted for Trump?

 

[Matata]

Does anyone besides me have family that voted for Trump?

I do. We don't talk much. They are perfect examples of the stereotype and are delighted we no longer have a (insert "n"word) in the White House.

 

[Calliecake]

I do believe there are people who could probably be reasoned with. Unfortunately the Trump supporters I’ve come in contact with voted for him for the hate. This was the big draw for them.

 

[JPie]

@monarch64 My intention wasn’t to be hostile or antagonistic. If you’re going to state something like it’s fact then yes, the burden of proof is on you. If we never questioned each other then maybe we’d all get along great, but it would be superficial and not substantive. It’s also fundamental to the learning process; I mean, @arkieb1 showed me that apparently there’s still hope for some.

If more people demanded that elected officials back up their words and deeds with facts and didn’t just vote for whoever made them feel good, then maybe we wouldn’t be here today. Instead, we see Trump supporters eating up his fear-mongering and dehumanization of people of color. Could Hillary have won if she reached out to more people? Possibly, but let’s not disregard the effects of literally decades of Republican character assassination - how dare she say she doesn’t bake cookies, she must have no self-respect to stand by her cheating husband, Benghazi, email servers, etc.

@arkieb1 I worry that Trump is going to be re-elected because people believe the Republican propaganda about every Democratic candidate coming to take away their guns, they’re dirty socialists, they’re pushing the fake climate change agenda for their personal gain, and countless other BS that you see some people parrot. These same people also think that they’re the ones marginalized and with no voice despite their party controlling all three branches of the government. That’s why Trump has a chance of winning again - people choose fear.

@Matata thanks. I’ve been enjoying the discussion too; as I mentioned above, challenging each other is part of the learning process. You can be on the same side and not have to agree always.

@soxfan only by marriage! My husband’s cousin campaigned for Trump and worked for Elaine Chao. I think she works in the White House now and there’s a photo of her and her father proudly posing with Trump. A lot of the other in-laws are Trumpsters too. I try to limit our conversations to the weather.

 

[Calliecake]

Does anyone besides me have family that voted for Trump?

Yes @soxfan. Democratic policies would have help their families significantly. I watched them vote against their best interests. All so they could try to normalize hating people who have a different skin tone.

 

[Matata]

@JPie, the difference between you and Monnie and arkie is that your viewpoint speaks to the big picture of what's happening on a national scale because of the consequences of local level behavior and their giving voice to the local level where it may be easier for them to effect change. I, too, like the nuance of perspective and what it lends to discussion.

 

[Matata]

Hope you all have a great day. We're heading out on a hike on lovely Vancouver Island.

 

[JPie]

@Matata enjoy your hike!

@monarch64 I wanted to add that while it wasn't my intention to come across negatively, I apologize for making you feel antagonized.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This discussion has brought me back to "Archie Bunker", our racist, sexist, all around jerk that we loved as a character. We didn't hate Archie Bunker because he had some our very own characteristics, but could see how he handled situations and having his son-in-aw and wife play counter to him. You see, I don't mind an Archie Bunker, I can live with that.. But somewhere along the line this all turned into hate. So some people, including me don't want illegal immigration. I like Mexicans fine. Let them come legally. Why hate people if they want this and call them racist. Trump capitalized on this and it has mushroomed into terrible actions. Its like everyone is crazy.

One man seems to make everything worse. Jpie has said to Karl that values are in play. And that's why Arkie, he doesn't get thrown out of office. Our values have changed since Archie Bunker. I think we have become more like Trump ourselves and the left is going to the extreme with their own style of hate. I can live with different folk, but its harder to change values than change a vote.

And is my usual departure from the topic, I want to throw in" If people want change, and minorities want change, it is not my job to constantly worry about a group voting. If the group is not adult enough to understand what the vote means, perhaps they ought not vote. Is IT so much trouble to show an Id--poor babies. I showed one for yrs. ? I AM WHITE.

JPie-- This is just a statement. I will not prove anything.

Annette

 

[JPie]

@smitcompton you made it clear to me before that you did not want me to reply to you, and I've respected that until now. I will ask that you extend the same courtesy to me and not address me or reference my posts at all if you don't want me to respond.

From June 2018:

Hi,
So Jpie your logic escapes me, so please don't reply to me.

 

[redwood66]

Hi,

This discussion has brought me back to "Archie Bunker", our racist, sexist, all around jerk that we loved as a character. We didn't hate Archie Bunker because he had some our very own characteristics, but could see how he handled situations and having his son-in-aw and wife play counter to him. You see, I don't mind an Archie Bunker, I can live with that.. But somewhere along the line this all turned into hate. So some people, including me don't want illegal immigration. I like Mexicans fine. Let them come legally. Why hate people if they want this and call them racist. Trump capitalized on this and it has mushroomed into terrible actions. Its like everyone is crazy.

One man seems to make everything worse. Jpie has said to Karl that values are in play. And that's why Arkie, he doesn't get thrown out of office. Our values have changed since Archie Bunker. I think we have become more like Trump ourselves and the left is going to the extreme with their own style of hate. I can live with different folk, but its harder to change values than change a vote.

And is my usual departure from the topic, I want to throw in" If people want change, and minorities want change, it is not my job to constantly worry about a group voting. If the group is not adult enough to understand what the vote means, perhaps they ought not vote. Is IT so much trouble to show an Id--poor babies. I showed one for yrs. ? I AM WHITE.

JPie-- This is just a statement. I will not prove anything.

Annette

This is where every conservative person I know stands in the whole scheme of things @smitcompton. I want as many people to come here as we can handle, legally. I don't care what their color, nationality, education, or even their financial situation is, as long as they can support themselves. I have met so many immigrants from all over the globe who are very happy to be here. But when this position is deemed being racist or anti immigrant then I stop listening to anything else that person has to say. Because they have not listened to me. We are talking past each other and what is the point after that? How can anyone get anywhere after the word racist has been thrown? Maybe they don't want to get anywhere and just want to feed the beast that our politics has turned into. I don't know. I hate Trump's rhetoric and his idiotic statements. I thought he would be impeached by now since there was proof of everything he has done. All I know is it is not going to get any better at this rate. 2020 will be a disgusting show.

 

[monarch64]

@Matata enjoy your hike!

@monarch64 I wanted to add that while it wasn't my intention to come across negatively, I apologize for making you feel antagonized.

Hey, no worries! Sensitive topics at hand, we’re bound to have a few ruffled feathers here and there.

 

[yssie]

@monarch64 @JPie @Calliecake @redwood66 @soxfan @Matata @mrs-b @MissyBeaucoup @Tekate @Arkteia @arkieb1
From me, possibly from other lurkers... Thank you for this thread. I rarely participate any more, I find I don't have the energy for it and y'all say everything I'm thinking better than I would anyway. I agree with some of you on pretty much everything political, and I disagree with some of you on pretty much everything political, and I'm glad to have you and your opinions in my world because I do respect all of you.

Karl - Your decorum in this thread is a total embarrassment. Some topics aren't fodder for pot-stirring, and just because you can by PS TOS doesn't mean you should. Nonetheless, I respect you and Jon as connoisseurs in diamondtopia and I respect what you and AV have done to support your communities.

I've already blocked DF, thank goodness.

 

[arkieb1]

@Matata - thanks @JPie - I readily admit if I was surrounded by die hard Trump supporters day in day out I would lose my optimistic attitude too.... I'm lucky most of the
people I come across are Americans on neutral turf in my part of the world, I'm sure that makes it far far easier to have intelligent discussions with them even if they are avid Trump supporters (and I've met a few of them).

 

[Karl_K]

Karl - Your decorum in this thread is a total embarrassment

ok but note that my mistake was posting factual information in a hate fest.
Then being baited into a bit of fun.
So back to the regularly scheduled hate fest.

 

[mrs-b]

ok but note that my mistake was posting factual information in a hate fest.
Then being baited into a bit of fun.
So back to the regularly scheduled hate fest.

If this is what you're telling yourself, then this is the exact problem. If you knew me, and if you read my posts, you'll see there's nothing hateful in either my words or my attitude. I'm angry about Trump's behavior and his effect on this country - but full of hate? No. And the information you posted wasn't the point I was making at all. Your posts were missing the salient feature - that it isn't the US dominating child cancer or HIV research - it's a worldwide effort, but no sense of that in Trump's words.

Where your words become problematic, Karl, is where you start saying that you find other people expressing their views 'entertaining'. When you say that other people express their opinions - then you laugh. When you pretend you're above it all, rather than angry as hell. The patronizing, dismissive, passive aggression comes through, and it hurts people. When you ascribe certain behaviors to 'all the Democrats running' - yet it's real people on these boards who are voting for the people to whom you're ascribing this irresponsible behavior, ergo lumping us in with them, whether you admit it or not. When you type in 'rofl - I was wondering when someone would play the R card' - when it's clear there's no humor to this, and nobody is laughing - including you. It's baiting, Karl. It's making things worse.

There's few things more purposely mean than laughing at a person who is genuinely upset. A lot of people here are very upset - why not just let it pass? Why not be an instrument of peace?

As for a hate fest - you're wrong on that. Just plain wrong. The equivalent of you finding everything here 'entertaining' would be me saying "I feel sorry for you that you can't understand what I'm saying." But I'm not sorry - and it's a mark of respect that I'm not. You could see the problem if you wanted to. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

I wish you well, Karl, I truly do. I asked the mods to close this thread down because I think it's passed the point of being useful - or even healthy - so I need to vote with my feet now: this will be the last time I post on it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

So back to the regularly scheduled hate fest.

 

[Calliecake]

A lot has happened in the country since you started this thread on Friday @mrs-b . The hurt this country has endured over the past few days is immeasurable.

Our country deserves so much better than this President.

 

[Octo2005]

Obviously. But few things differentiate him from almost any other world leader more than this.

I have to disagree on the few part. Unfortunately, there is a very long list of things that differentiate him from all other world leaders.

 

[Dancing Fire]

@arkieb1
DF is right when he says there is not one Democratic candidate as of now that can beat Trump in 2020. So it's either drop the attitude and get with the program, or keep whining and bitching and calling the "other side" (your peers) dummies and deplorables and lose again.

Mon, are you feeling ok?. do you need to go see a Dr. ?

 

[Maria D]

Does anyone besides me have family that voted for Trump?

Yes

 

[monarch64]

Mon, are you feeling ok?. do you need to go see a Dr. ?

Haha. I feel great! Just think the D’s need to work on their recruitment strategy. Maybe take a few hints from megachurches and such. Ever hear the words “prosperity gospel?” Man, those people know what they are doing to get the flocks under control!

 

[Octo2005]

Hi,

And is my usual departure from the topic, I want to throw in" If people want change, and minorities want change, it is not my job to constantly worry about a group voting. If the group is not adult enough to understand what the vote means, perhaps they ought not vote. Is IT so much trouble to show an Id--poor babies. I showed one for yrs. ? I AM WHITE.

JPie-- This is just a statement. I will not prove anything.

Annette

In theory, I agree with you. However, it is our responsibility as a society to recognize that the field is not always level and that our reality may not be the reality others are living.

I will share an example of how privilege plays into the id requirements and why it is not as simple of an issue as it should be.

Years ago we were living in Alabama and I needed to get a new drivers license. There was only 1 DMV in the large metropolitan city (for Alabama) where I lived. So I gathered all the documents that I needed, got in my car and drove the 30 minutes to get my new license. I was there waiting for 3 1/2 hours! Now don't get me wrong, I was not happy about this, but because I am fortunate, it was merely an inconvenience.

I was able to drive myself to and from in my car and didn't need to rely on public transportation to get to the DMV. Many are not so privileged and must take multiple buses/ and or walk to get there.

I am fortunate that my husband provides for us and I didn't need to take the day off of work. Many are not and often are working multiple jobs to just make ends meet. Many don't have paid time off and missing work would mean that there already tight paycheck will be short.

I am fortunate that I could afford to hire a babysitter and didn't need to spend 3+ hours at the crowded DMV while trying to manage infants/toddlers while waiting. Many are not so lucky. I personally witnessed several people (with and without children in tow) get up and leave for whatever reasons.

 

[the_mother_thing]

In theory, I agree with you. However, it is our responsibility as a society to recognize that the field is not always level and that our reality may not be the reality others are living.

I will share an example of how privilege plays into the id requirements and why it is not as simple of an issue as it should be.

Years ago we were living in Alabama and I needed to get a new drivers license. There was only 1 DMV in the large metropolitan city (for Alabama) where I lived. So I gathered all the documents that I needed, got in my car and drove the 30 minutes to get my new license. I was there waiting for 3 1/2 hours! Now don't get me wrong, I was not happy about this, but because I am fortunate, it was merely an inconvenience.
Sounds like 1) there wasn’t a large enough population to justify having more than one location; and/or, 2) frustration should be directed at local/state officials who didn’t have the tax revenue/chose not to fund an additional DMV location if the population did in fact warrant an additional location.

I was able to drive myself to and from in my car and didn't need to rely on public transportation to get to the DMV. Many are not so privileged and must take multiple buses/ and or walk to get there.
How do these same people get to/from everywhere else in life? Work, school, grocery store, doctor appts, visits with family, shopping malls, etc.?

I am fortunate that my husband provides for us and I didn't need to take the day off of work. Many are not and often are working multiple jobs to just make ends meet. Many don't have paid time off and missing work would mean that there already tight paycheck will be short.
What do these same people do when they are sick and/or have a doctor appt?

I am fortunate that I could afford to hire a babysitter and didn't need to spend 3+ hours at the crowded DMV while trying to manage infants/toddlers while waiting. Many are not so lucky. I personally witnessed several people (with and without children in tow) get up and leave for whatever reasons.
Again, what do these same people do with their children when they are at work? School? Etc?

“Inconveniences” suck, but none of these appear to be targeting/limited to any one race, religion, gender, etc. We ALL contend with these and other inconveniences at one point or another in our everyday lives, and we all manage to do what we need to, survive the day, and go on to the next. It may not be ‘simple’, but rarely is anything in life is ‘simple’.

Bill Gates’ “reality” isn’t my reality. And my reality isn’t the same as my neighbor’s reality, or that of the random person in the next city/state over. ‘Society’ is not cloned, people don’t make the same decisions/choices in like situations, nor prioritize things the same way, so this viewpoint that “because someone else has it better/worse than me means I should/should not have/do X” generally grinds my backside a bit, as does making excuses for someone else not doing something that laws state should be done by everyone. People will always find an excuse to not do something, even when that ‘something’ is for their benefit/in their interest.

:steps_off_soapbox:

 

[redwood66]

I am going to carefully try to reply to you @Octo2005. IDs are required for so many more things so to me this argument is not valid. You cannot get medical care without an id unless it is in an ER and life threatening. Everyone has to go through the same inconvenient process.

Edit - this does not mean that I do not care about others' plight or situations.