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No more online certs at James Allen

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the_mother_thing

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I have specific measurements and angles I was eyeing (based on matching to my other diamonds) and a few stones saved to my JA list for consideration to buy. If I’m going to be ‘forced’ to talk to a salesperson to get the details, I’m far more inclined to deal with WhiteFlash or HPD where I know the customer service is top notch and the person eyeing the diamonds knows what they are looking at/for based on my needs and understands the level of detail PSers have. I don’t have confidence that I’d get the same level of service from a JA chat rep or random 800 CSR. Sorry not sorry.
 

YoungPapa

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Hi folks,

No need to tag me - I saw this coming from a mile away.

So yeah, we removed the certificates from the website and are asking folks to request a copy from our CS team. I'll admit it's sorta crazy, but we've never been afraid to push the envelope and this is no exception.

At James Allen, we have a pretty good business. We sell hundreds of millions of dollars each year in diamonds, and have assisted something close to 500,000 young couples make a diamond purchase. In all that time, we've learned a few things about our customers. To start (and as unbelievable as it may sound), many people don't even look at the certificate. Seriously. And for those who do, most don't really understand what they're seeing. They might think 'Polish' is what makes a diamond beautiful, all lab reports are equal, fluorescence is always bad, or 50 other myths and misinterpretations. I'm not suggesting any of these people are dumb - they are engineers, medical students, and every other walk of life - they just aren't diamond experts (and often aren't that interested in becoming one). They have a budget, a preferred shape, and want to get the best diamond they can. For those folks, removing the reports is a nonevent, and we don't expect to tilt that needle one way or another.

Another thing that we know about our customers, however, is if they interact with our Customer Service staff, they are 10x more likely to make a purchase than someone who just browses the website unassisted. They are also 50% less likely to return or exchange their diamond because it didn't meet their expectations, and some other multiple more likely to highly recommend us to friends and family. While our CS team may not be perfect, they are still very, very good at what they do and enjoy finding great diamonds and sharing them with customers more than any other part of their job.

So put those two things together, and where do you land? Yes, I admit - 100% - this is bad for PS. But it's worth a test, which is all we're doing right now. If it works, great. If not, we can flip a switch and go back. While i don't have a crystal ball, my bet is that we'll land somewhere in the middle. Maybe the reports will be missing unless you register. Maybe we'll create an advanced filter that is hidden most of the time, but available for 'super users' like people on PS. I really don't know yet, but need a couple weeks of data to figure it out.

In the meantime, I understand that we have made it overly difficult for PS influencers to recommend us, and for that I am sorry. If history tells me anything though, it's that you guys will chastice us when we make a mistake, but cheer us when we do things right.

A few other points that I want to make clear.

We - myself, my partners and cofounders, are running the show. If you don't like the decisions we're making, you can direct that heat on me - not on Zales, Jared, or any of the other banners under the Signet umbrella. If you want to see the impact of that acquisition you won't find it at JA, but walk into a Jared and you'll find better pricing, better cuts, and a movement towards GIA reports as the new standard.

We are no longer redacting any information from the certificate copies, and any requested reports will contain all of the information - including certificate number.

We uploaded a change today that removed a bit more info than we intended. Measurements, for example, will be back online soon.

Our staff is and will continue to be noncommissioned.

We are an innovative company that literally 'invented' diamond photography and visualiziaton (at scale), and we have more to come. Emphasizing the value of our diamond imagery and expert Customer Service is part of a larger strategy that dovetails with new technology we intend to bring to market this summer.

Finally, we're not static, we value feedback, and we really do want to be the best online diamond retailer in the world. Even when we act like the opposite.
 
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kmoro

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That is the dumbest thing ever.

They do have the best presentation box though ... lol

ETA: just to be clear, this was a comment about withdrawing the certificates that I posted before seeing @YoungPapa’s post. I am not saying that the post above mine is the dumbest thing ever! I think it was a good explanation, actually.
 

diamondseeker2006

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58,547
Okay, I totally understand not giving GIA report numbers. But the lack of diameter, table, depth, crown and pav angles would make it impossible for me to buy or recommend stones from the site. I get that people use the GIA number to price shop, but honestly, if they price match, I don't see the big deal. But it sounds like from Jim's post that the removal of measurements was an error, and that those numbers will be back. I do like the inclusion plot for stones under VS1. So block out the report number, but put everything else back and I'd be good with that.
 

the_mother_thing

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To start (and as unbelievable as it may sound), many people don't even look at the certificate. Seriously. And for those who do, most don't really understand what they're seeing. They might think 'Polish' is what makes a diamond beautiful, all lab reports are equal, fluorescence is always bad, or 50 other myths and misinterpretations.

Many people may not, but the people who come to PS looking for help are going to look for those reports because: 1) we help them understand what to look for and how to weed out ‘bad’ diamonds from good; 2) we help them understand fluorescence isn’t really something to be afraid of if they know what to look for/ask; 3) we educate them that all lab reports are not equal; 4) we help them assess the likelihood a clarity characteristic is/is not likely cause for concern; and a bunch of other things ... and we also do it without any commission, salary or kickbacks from vendors. It will be pretty hard for anyone here to help someone consider JA diamonds if the information needed is not available because of how many times someone may have to go back and forth with a JA rep to ask whether the GIA notes “additional clouds not shown”, was the crown angle 34.4 or 34.8, was ‘crystal’ the first or third inclusion listed, etc. ... for a dozen diamonds that may be suggested for consideration. That alone would drive me batty!

The *only* caveat I can see where omitting GIA cert info for diamonds might get some favor is if they’re replaced with additional images such as ASET & Idealscope without the buyer having to ask for them. But that’s only if those images are consistently correctly taken.

But with all due respect, it’s your business and your prerogative to run it how you see fit. :wavey:
 

SandyinAnaheim

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While I am loyal to CBI and would never have purchased from JA anyway, I certainly respect Mr. Shultz' explanation and attempt to gain more market share with his tactics. Personally, I don't think it is a smart move as the uneducated consumer doesn't assign much value to the certs as has been asserted, but the hordes who visit this website for information and were pointed to JA from PS, will now (albeit, perhaps temporarily) be pointed elsewhere. I can see the appeal to have consumers contact CS more frequently, which isn't something I, or other prosumers would do with regularity. In this day and age, and from a business perspective, having more info online for consumers to digest is a greater lure than having CS attendants standing by to answer questions, IMHO.
 

the_mother_thing

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In this day and age, and from a business perspective, having more info online for consumers to digest is a greater lure than having CS attendants standing by to answer questions, IMHO.

BINGO! I am not a “hold my hand while I shop” kind of person ... whether it’s for a car, a house, or a diamond. I don’t want a salesperson breathing down my neck, email or chat window. I much prefer to take my time, see what’s out there, what I think about it, make my own assessments based on my own research, etc. And when I make a decision and am ready to buy, that’s when I want to contact a sales person.
 

DiamondsAndDior

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What I don’t understand is if most consumers don’t look at the certificate and other specs, then why even remove it? What is JA trying to achieve by making it difficult for those people who do care about the certificate/details? It kinda sounds like they want to drive away the subset of consumers who have done their research and/or know what they want. I personally would never buy from a company that doesn’t value transparency and customer experience, but I guess I’m not JA’s target market.
 

whitewave

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What I don’t understand is if most consumers don’t look at the certificate and other specs, then why even remove it? What is JA trying to achieve by making it difficult for those people who do care about the certificate/details? It kinda sounds like they want to drive away the subset of consumers who have done their research and/or know what they want. I personally would never buy from a company that doesn’t value transparency and customer experience, but I guess I’m not JA’s target market.

Excellent point. If they didn’t look anyway, why the need to remove it?doesnt make a lick of sense.
 

SandyinAnaheim

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BINGO! I am not a “hold my hand while I shop” kind of person ... whether it’s for a car, a house, or a diamond. I don’t want a salesperson breathing down my neck, email or chat window. I much prefer to take my time, see what’s out there, what I think about it, make my own assessments based on my own research, etc. And when I make a decision and am ready to buy, that’s when I want to contact a sales person.
Precisely. But I think the essence of what Mr. Schultz' is trying to convey with this new schema is that they are willing to forego (temporarily perhaps) the preferences of the more educated consumer in order to reel in the exponentially greater mass of less educated potential buyers. How many times do people come to PS stating they want to buy a stone from JA only because a friend had a great experience there? What happens to all those potential JA clients if they are now directed elsewhere to legitimate super-ideal vendors? This could be really good for all the other fish in the pond....
 

Lynniiee

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91
Hey all, I'm a web developer recently frustrated that Brilliant Earth started doing this to some of their stones.

I wrote a post about how to find ANY certificate on brilliant earth on another forum, I'd love to post it here as well.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...number-of-any-stone-on-brilliantearth.248213/

It's very possible to do this on James Allen's website as well, I'll make another thread and post it in just a bit
 

kmoro

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Here you go, how to find the certificate of a stone on James Allen without contacting support:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ames-allen-without-contacting-support.248214/

Hopefully this can reduce the frustration in the meantime

OR, you can open a window, put this in the address bar: https://ion.r2net.com/Sets/Diamond/6448481/cert.jpg

Except, instead of “6448481”, you put in the sku of the diamond you’re looking at.

Thanks @Lynniiee !!!! :wavey:


It didn’t take long to find a work around!!! lol
 

flyingpig

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We are an innovative company that literally 'invented' diamond photography and visualiziaton (at scale), and we have more to come.
I couldn't agree more. There is something different about JA that other vendors do not have. Their website is easy to navigate and intuitive. I can compare diamonds and pick ones that I like literally 10x faster than using other sites, mainly because of HD photos, layout, and responsiveness. It is a brilliant design overall.
For me, JA is a tech company with smart people. Off topic, anyhow, I am sure @YoungPapa and JA will find a more elegant solution.
 

kmoro

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I couldn't agree more. There is something different about JA that other vendors do not have. Their website is easy to navigate and intuitive. I can compare diamonds and pick ones that I like literally 10x faster than using other sites.
For me, JA is a tech company with smart people. I am sure @YoungPapa and JA will find a more elegant solution.

I have to agree. But when I heard this news, the first thing I did was decide not to upgrade my earrings after all. It would take me months to decide, and I’m not sure JA has enough staff to help me out. Not to mention I am born for internet shopping ... if I can do my shopping and educate myself, the last thing I want is to go through customer service. I am an online shopper. I want to shop online by myself, not with an agent.

I question some of the conclusions that JA has made. For example, saying that a customer who contacts customer service is 10x more likely to complete a purchase is not really a reliable conclusion. The customers contacting customer service were probably 10x more serious in the first place. The sale isn’t made because they made contact, they made contact because the sale had been made (mostly). I hope that makes sense.

Oh well. Time will tell whether this affects their sales or not. In the meantime, I’m glad to find a way to see the certificate without contacting customer service and maybe I’ll still upgrade my earrings. I wish them well!

And they still have the best presentation box.

:wavey:
 
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Snowdrop13

Ideal_Rock
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You can still search using the PS tool for measurements and their stones pop up along with everyone else’s. It is annoying not being able to see the certificate, though.
 

flyingpig

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Not to mention I am born for internet shopping ... if I can do my shopping and educate myself, the last thing I want is to go through customer service. I am an online shopper. I want to shop online by myself, not with an agent.
:wavey:
Well said. You and I are JA's target customers. We like see all specs and details without going thru customer service and hassle, and conduct our own research online. We do not contact Amazon's customer service to find out more details on a product. JA should know this better than anyone else. As I said, I see JA as a tech and logistic company. They are just trying different things for now.

Disclaimer. I am a JA fanboy.
 

mrs-b

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Hi folks,

No need to tag me - I saw this coming from a mile away.

So yeah, we removed the certificates from the website and are asking folks to request a copy from our CS team. I'll admit it's sorta crazy, but we've never been afraid to push the envelope and this is no exception.

At James Allen, we have a pretty good business. We sell hundreds of millions of dollars each year in diamonds, and have assisted something close to 500,000 young couples make a diamond purchase. In all that time, we've learned a few things about our customers. To start (and as unbelievable as it may sound), many people don't even look at the certificate. Seriously. And for those who do, most don't really understand what they're seeing. They might think 'Polish' is what makes a diamond beautiful, all lab reports are equal, fluorescence is always bad, or 50 other myths and misinterpretations. I'm not suggesting any of these people are dumb - they are engineers, medical students, and every other walk of life - they just aren't diamond experts (and often aren't that interested in becoming one). They have a budget, a preferred shape, and want to get the best diamond they can. For those folks, removing the reports is a nonevent, and we don't expect to tilt that needle one way or another.

Another thing that we know about our customers, however, is if they interact with our Customer Service staff, they are 10x more likely to make a purchase than someone who just browses the website unassisted. They are also 50% less likely to return or exchange their diamond because it didn't meet their expectations, and some other multiple more likely to highly recommend us to friends and family. While our CS team may not be perfect, they are still very, very good at what they do and enjoy finding great diamonds and sharing them with customers more than any other part of their job.

So put those two things together, and where do you land? Yes, I admit - 100% - this is bad for PS. But it's worth a test, which is all we're doing right now. If it works, great. If not, we can flip a switch and go back. While i don't have a crystal ball, my bet is that we'll land somewhere in the middle. Maybe the reports will be missing unless you register. Maybe we'll create an advanced filter that is hidden most of the time, but available for 'super users' like people on PS. I really don't know yet, but need a couple weeks of data to figure it out.

In the meantime, I understand that we have made it overly difficult for PS influencers to recommend us, and for that I am sorry. If history tells me anything though, it's that you guys will chastice us when we make a mistake, but cheer us when we do things right.

A few other points that I want to make clear.

We - myself, my partners and cofounders, are running the show. If you don't like the decisions we're making, you can direct that heat on me - not on Zales, Jared, or any of the other banners under the Signet umbrella. If you want to see the impact of that acquisition you won't find it at JA, but walk into a Jared and you'll find better pricing, better cuts, and a movement towards GIA reports as the new standard.

We are no longer redacting any information from the certificate copies, and any requested reports will contain all of the information - including certificate number.

We uploaded a change today that removed a bit more info than we intended. Measurements, for example, will be back online soon.

Our staff is and will continue to be noncommissioned.

We are an innovative company that literally 'invented' diamond photography and visualiziaton (at scale), and we have more to come. Emphasizing the value of our diamond imagery and expert Customer Service is part of a larger strategy that dovetails with new technology we intend to bring to market this summer.

Finally, we're not static, we value feedback, and we really do want to be the best online diamond retailer in the world. Even when we act like the opposite.

Last time JA did something like this, they removed the GIA numbers, while saying this was just a test, and they were open to learning from whatever that change in procedure showed. Well, whatever it was they learnt from that experience, somehow the next step was to remove the GIA certs altogether.

Even AFTER they removed the GIA numbers - I still bought one more diamond from JA. Even after saying I wouldn't. But that's it for me. The removal of information has too many negative implications about how you feel about your customers. And I'm sure you're right; people no doubt are 10 times more likely to buy a diamond if they have to go through your sales reps. It's called getting a foot in the door.

But, look, when all is said and done, there's no point getting upset about this. There are a lot of companies out there with whom I don't do business. James Allen is now just one more.

ETA Consumers may be incapable of understanding a GIA certificate (doubtful). But surely JA doesn't believe we're too stupid to understand the actual DIMENSIONS of the stone?? Oh pah-lease.
 
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mrs-b

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Does Blue Nile have a rep on Pricescope? Someone should link them to this thread. Blue Nile - are you out there?? Does anyone know if they have a rep?
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
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Is the logic that customers are more likely to need an agent and become in the subgroup of those more likely to purchase and not refund?

My main problem is that most consumers cannot recognise a well cut diamond from a video alone. Many will purchase poorly cut GIA XXX, without a second thought and this reverses the progress towards consumer education and achieving a higher demand for better cut diamonds. Business is business and I do hope this solution is not the one that helps JA financially as it would further validate the flaws with how consumers continue to trivialize diamond purchases compared to other big buys.
 

Dancing Fire

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Excellent point. If they didn’t look anyway, why the need to remove it?doesnt make a lick of sense.
b/c you guys are too picky. PITB.. :wink2: :lol:

About 6 months ago I call JA inquiring about a stone for my daughter. The SA gave me the run arounds so I just hung up the phone.
 
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OoohShiny

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My main problem is that most consumers cannot recognise a well cut diamond from a video alone. Many will purchase poorly cut GIA XXX, without a second thought and this reverses the progress towards consumer education and achieving a higher demand for better cut diamonds. Business is business and I do hope this solution is not the one that helps JA financially as it would further validate the flaws with how consumers continue to trivialize diamond purchases compared to other big buys.
I agree with this.

I have to run out the door but, to be short and sweet, it could be interpreted that JA would rather their customers stay uninformed and more often subject to the unspoken feeling of 'obligation' that comes to shy and retiring people like myself when subject to any sales tactics or faced with the prospect of difficulty returning a product.

On the flip side of the coin, I think it is interesting how (personally speaking, and with reference to the discussions in Garry's current thread on the new Clara rough trading system) shopping for fancy cuts on JA is all about 'beauty' rather than a set of given parameters, so to remove grading reports from Rounds puts them on a par with this approach. Of course, light performance is graded by AGS and we have a 'known good' set of parameters to work with for MRBs, whereas fancies are a whole different ballgame at this moment in time, but might that position change if fancies can get graded for light performance and also 'beauty', which Serg's work is attempting to quantify and communicate to customers?


My position is the same as those noted in previous comments - that more information on any given diamond is a good thing, and if it is no more work to leave grading reports on the webpage than it is to leave it off (I presume because uploads are all automatically processed) then leave them on. People who don't care about them (because they are uneducated or just don't care) won't look at them, but PSers and other more educated users will use them.

If there are issues with people not buying a certain subset of stones due to being put off by the grading reports that are uploaded (because 'all SI stones are bad' or 'I won't buy a stone with a cavity' or any other personally-defined limitation) then education is the key to buyers overcoming this mindset. I understand that Customer Service Assistants can provide this 'education', but as a person who hates speaking to other people in real life and doesn't 100% trust those people with a vested interest, such as making a sale out of a 'chat', it is hard to distinguish 'education' from 'the hard sell' sometimes. If we are relying on a person not to bullshit us to make a sale, how do we know for sure we can trust them at their word? Anyway, this is a general peeve of mine so I'll stop moaning ;-) lol

If another issue is that JA is losing sales to other, cheaper vendors by consumers shopping for virtual inventory on JA and then going to the other place that doesn't offer videos etc., then I can appreciate the situation - reduce prices and reduce profit margin (still at risk of being undercut by other vendors), try to communicate the added value proposition of JA being worth the extra money (not always a guaranteed 'sell'), or reduce the ability of buyers to undertake this course of action (by removing grading reports), all of which options are perhaps undesirable.
 

lissyflo

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For a significant number of consumers, a diamond may be a once in a lifetime purchase, and I can see that some may get confused by, or be uninterested in, a high level of detail for a one-off purchase, but to remove helpful information under the premise of making things clearer seems to be a clear case of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I assume this is James Allen trying to carve themselves a specific, middle market customer niche? They’ll leave WF/BG etc to cater to the ‘fussy’ customers, and focus their efforts on middle market, less informed customers. Cynical maybe, but I would tend to link ‘ less informed’ in this instance with ‘able to charge higher margins for lower quality stones’.
 

Rfisher

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If JA has any ability at all to extract sales data correlative to PSers/PS influence-
That tells you all what you need to know about what they think and why they do what they do.
YoungPapa saw this response from PS coming from a mile away, after all.
 

OoohShiny

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If JA has any ability at all to extract sales data correlative to PSers/PS influence-
That tells you all what you need to know about what they think and why they do what they do.
YoungPapa saw this response from PS coming from a mile away, after all.
I believe that all click-throughs to JA from links posted on the forum will show as a redirect from PS.
 

mrs-b

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The last time I bought a diamond from James Allen (about 2 weeks ago) the sales person told me I'd chosen a lovely stone. Said it had lovely dimensions and a really nice "window". Very taken aback, I said..."Window??" They said - yes - the flat part at the top of the diamond. And I TRULY didn't mean to be a smart arse, but I was just so taken aback, because window to me, in gems, means something COMPLETELY different - and it ain't a good thing! So, after a second, when it registered what they meant, I said "The table?" And they said "Yes - the window, the table, the part you look through at the top."

So can I suggest that the sales team who are "very, very good at what they do and enjoy finding great diamonds and sharing them with customers" could use a little work.

However, the main reason I won't ever buy a diamond at James Allen again isn't an ethical one at all. It's because I don't trust anyone to choose as good a diamond for my needs as I would. For instance, say I want a pair of pears. You know how many diamonds you have to peruse to find that? And you might be thinking - ok - I'll get something in the 2 x .3ct range. And then you find nothing. So you think - ok - maybe 2 x .25ct? And you get one good one. So then you go up a little and find one .27ct stone, but its ratios are wrong in matching the other stone. So then you go down a little and find a .23ct stone - but its table is too flat. So, after an hour of looking, you think - could 2 x .35ct stones work? Maaaaaybe - so long as they're cut deep and their spread isn't quite as large. So then you peruse all the .35ct pears with extra depth. And so on and so on and so on. And I just categorically do not believe that someone will spend hours looking for my purchase like I would. Nor are they inside my head sufficiently to know what level of flexibility I have. Nor am I going to get a sales assistant to work through the entire inventory, phone call after phone call, to find what I want. And I realize - that makes me one of those elite "engineer or medical student" (seriously?) customers YoungPapa spoke about. But I'm still a customer, bottom line.

So in the final analysis, the truth is, James Allen can no longer serve me. They simply can't. The time it takes is prohibitive. And they should probably put a red flag next to my phone number in case it comes up one day and the voice on the other end says "So, I'm looking for a pair of pears...."

ETA I did think the "window" thing was a classic, tho. Too small an incident to share here before, yet somehow it now seems relevant, since these would be the people picking our stones.
 
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