looking for ideas
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2008
- Messages
- 24
thanks
what are your thoughts on egl-usa los angeles certs? Are tey reliable?
- Thread starter looking for ideas
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 42,064
This page may help. I have a lovely EGL USA diamond.Date: 8/22/2008 3:27:24 PM
Author:looking for ideas
thanks
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/grading.asp
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
EGL can overgrade a diaomond 2-4 letters. If just one letter it''ll be the one of few. EGL G SI1''s are usually GIA H SI2''s. The bigger EGL SI''s are most likely GIA I1''s. Then is an EGL Vg a GIA G?
You can go EGL if you want to play that kind of game, it makes sense to compare GIA first so the benchmark in pricing is established. If the EGL diamond is 20%-40% lower than a GIA of the same letters then foolish to believe you are getting the same graded diamond. Just look at what that 20-40% lower price gets you in GIA and that is extremely likely the best scenario you are getting in reality.
Having said that EGL doesn''t make a diamond bad. The measurements and cut specs should help validate the cut criteria. There are many gorgeous EGL certed diamonds, they just aren''t the "deal" the appearance makes them sound.
Marty
CEO/Pres
www.dbsdiamonds.com
You can go EGL if you want to play that kind of game, it makes sense to compare GIA first so the benchmark in pricing is established. If the EGL diamond is 20%-40% lower than a GIA of the same letters then foolish to believe you are getting the same graded diamond. Just look at what that 20-40% lower price gets you in GIA and that is extremely likely the best scenario you are getting in reality.
Having said that EGL doesn''t make a diamond bad. The measurements and cut specs should help validate the cut criteria. There are many gorgeous EGL certed diamonds, they just aren''t the "deal" the appearance makes them sound.
Marty
CEO/Pres
www.dbsdiamonds.com
purrfectpear
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 4,079
That isn''t true at all. I''m not a fan of EGL anything if GIA or AGS is available at a reasonable price, but some of the statements you''ve made are NOT born out by fact.
I believe several industry experts have agreed that while EGL-USA may be soft on color by ONE or TWO grades (not 4
EGL-Isreal is a whole ''nuther ball of wax.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2000
- Messages
- 6,694
Generalizations which imply or outright say that a particular lab is always soft compared to the GIA or AGSL are not based on fact, but more on feeling or rumor. The subjectiveness of the grades combined with the business motivation secondary labs have not to grade more harshly than the GIA or the AGSL forces legitimate secondary labs to use their best efforts at not being tougher than necessary. This leads to slightly to moderately softer grading overall, but on any individual diamond, one should not guess about how the accuracy of the grading is.
The study we did on Pricescope indicated that some of the best bargains had EGL reports. Dealers tend to discount in a broad way with EGL reports, yet on occasion, these reports are right on the money for grading with GIA specs. Those diamonds then tend to be the best deals.
EGL-Israel has earned the poor reputation it now has, but it is not connected with EGL-USA.
The study we did on Pricescope indicated that some of the best bargains had EGL reports. Dealers tend to discount in a broad way with EGL reports, yet on occasion, these reports are right on the money for grading with GIA specs. Those diamonds then tend to be the best deals.
EGL-Israel has earned the poor reputation it now has, but it is not connected with EGL-USA.
Adylon
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 232
I agree with David. There are some good bargains out there in the EGL-USA market. However for a consumer that depends on a lab report, especially on something big, clean, white, I'd stick with GIA. I'm always expecting the worst when I see a 2ct EGL-USA graded diamond. But for the most part 1/2ct to 1ct are graded more or less accurately. You always wonder what the motives are for a dealer who sends a 2.50ct VS2/F to EGL-USA instead of GIA. You don't really wonder so much on a 0.73ct SI2/G if you know what I mean. If you want consistency and need to trust the lab report, and especially if buying something large/rare, definitely stick with GIA.
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Messages
- 4,924
I like the EGL-LA lab the best. In my opinion they are the strictest grading lab of the EGL franchise.
They''re never 2 to 4 grades off. 1 off, at the most, and that''s usually on color. Sometimes they''re dead on the money.
They''re never 2 to 4 grades off. 1 off, at the most, and that''s usually on color. Sometimes they''re dead on the money.
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
Final word??? C''mon. "Never"??? C''mon again.
Maybe when one studies .20ct or .40ct or maybe .70ct diamonds then sure. But I can assure you I stand by all my statements and we''ll just let the cert attachments speak for themselves. I think the "never" statement has just been destroyed.
Darn right when one starts getting into larger diamonds is when the #&@! hits the fan on the grading. There is so much overgrading that goes on outside GIA/AGS it is pathetic that the industry tolerates it.
And with the grading comes real separation in value/price and I suggest that anyone looking at EGL, whether EGL USA, EGL Mars or EGL Jupiter that if the pricing is 20%+ less than GIA diamonds of "comparable" letters then you should understand why a supplier would send such a stone to EGL instead of GIA.
"I''ll sell you this EGL diamond for $22k even though a comparable graded GIA diamond is $30k"...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah right, they are going to leave $8k on the table...
I have a good customer of mine in N. VA and she has an EGL 2ct diamond that they called, that is EGL called it, "D IF".... the diamond has been verified as no better than G VVS2 on it''s BEST day. Of course that was from a "GIA gemologist" and not GIA so maybe the VVS2 was borderline VVS1 but no way was the diamond colorless.
Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds
www.dbsdiamonds.com
Maybe when one studies .20ct or .40ct or maybe .70ct diamonds then sure. But I can assure you I stand by all my statements and we''ll just let the cert attachments speak for themselves. I think the "never" statement has just been destroyed.
Darn right when one starts getting into larger diamonds is when the #&@! hits the fan on the grading. There is so much overgrading that goes on outside GIA/AGS it is pathetic that the industry tolerates it.
And with the grading comes real separation in value/price and I suggest that anyone looking at EGL, whether EGL USA, EGL Mars or EGL Jupiter that if the pricing is 20%+ less than GIA diamonds of "comparable" letters then you should understand why a supplier would send such a stone to EGL instead of GIA.
"I''ll sell you this EGL diamond for $22k even though a comparable graded GIA diamond is $30k"...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah right, they are going to leave $8k on the table...
I have a good customer of mine in N. VA and she has an EGL 2ct diamond that they called, that is EGL called it, "D IF".... the diamond has been verified as no better than G VVS2 on it''s BEST day. Of course that was from a "GIA gemologist" and not GIA so maybe the VVS2 was borderline VVS1 but no way was the diamond colorless.
Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds
www.dbsdiamonds.com
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
And on another note the EGL cert is June 18, 2008 and the GIA cert is July 1 2008. So that should completely cut off the notion that "well, EGL USA has gotten better recently"...
For those fact finders out there I can try and grab details on a 3.82ct GIA H SI2 that the supplier sent to EGLUSA and received a G VS2. That is THREE letters and an even more injustice on the buying public.
When we start talking 4 letters then ok, I can''t provide a 4 letter comparison yet, but I wasn''t necessarily referring to just the EGL stateside labs. We in the industry know how "reliable" EGL Belgium is, now don''t we....
Let''s just say I support Josef''s comments.
Beware the wolf in sheep clothing...
Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds
www.dbsdiamonds.com
For those fact finders out there I can try and grab details on a 3.82ct GIA H SI2 that the supplier sent to EGLUSA and received a G VS2. That is THREE letters and an even more injustice on the buying public.
When we start talking 4 letters then ok, I can''t provide a 4 letter comparison yet, but I wasn''t necessarily referring to just the EGL stateside labs. We in the industry know how "reliable" EGL Belgium is, now don''t we....
Let''s just say I support Josef''s comments.
Beware the wolf in sheep clothing...
Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds
www.dbsdiamonds.com
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Messages
- 4,924
Just to be specific, my comments were directed at the EGL-LA lab, not the EGL-NY lab. I've seen the NY lab be off 2 grades (usually not more than that), but I can't remember seeing an LA report being off more than one grade, usually on color, but not always.
Your example, which is difficult to read (it would be nice to be able to see the carat weight in the EGL example) shows a one grade difference on both color and clarity. That does not surprise me. Two grades off would. Three or four grades I just don't think is going to happen.
My point being that the LA lab is more consistent and accurate with their grading.
As consistent and accurate as GIA? No. But not as bad as your original post portrayed.
The "3 and 4" grade off reports are usually coming out of Antwerp and Israel, although there's no comparison between the two. Antwerp is far better than Israel.
You're right in that the stones are usually priced correctly for what they are. The price can often give you an idea of what the correct grading is.
The times when an EGL stone can be a bargain is when it is correct. It happens, you know. Then you pick it up at an EGL price when it is GIA material. The Pricescope survey illustrated this, if I remember correctly.
Your example, which is difficult to read (it would be nice to be able to see the carat weight in the EGL example) shows a one grade difference on both color and clarity. That does not surprise me. Two grades off would. Three or four grades I just don't think is going to happen.
My point being that the LA lab is more consistent and accurate with their grading.
As consistent and accurate as GIA? No. But not as bad as your original post portrayed.
The "3 and 4" grade off reports are usually coming out of Antwerp and Israel, although there's no comparison between the two. Antwerp is far better than Israel.
You're right in that the stones are usually priced correctly for what they are. The price can often give you an idea of what the correct grading is.
The times when an EGL stone can be a bargain is when it is correct. It happens, you know. Then you pick it up at an EGL price when it is GIA material. The Pricescope survey illustrated this, if I remember correctly.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2005
- Messages
- 1,529
The original question was: Are EGL-USA LA certs reliable?Date: 8/22/2008 3:27:24 PM
Author:looking for ideas
thanks
The answer is "fairly reliable" but there is oftentimes a 1 grade margin of difference, from my experience.
www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
As long as they are consistent you can apply a correction factor to pricing.Date: 8/23/2008 12:56:00 PM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:
Reliable? In what context? From the info posted, yes you can say they are reliable; they are always, at least, ''one'' color grade off.
cheers--Sharon
Its a lab that may agree with GIA on one stone and be 4 grades off on another that is the real problem.
coatimundi_org
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2007
- Messages
- 6,281
Yup, and in my experience--twice--color was dead on the money. One was regraded by GIA, and the other was independently appraised.
Labs can tell you a lot, but ultimately you have to judge the stone. Labs are not infallible.
trillionaire
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,881
Date: 8/23/2008 12:56:00 PM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:
Reliable? In what context? From the info posted, yes you can say they are reliable; they are always, at least, ''one'' color grade off.
cheers--Sharon
reliable in this context would mean EGL USA stones are correctly color graded, or one off, consistently.
If you are talking about accuracy, that is something else. Though AGS would be considered more accurate overall than GIA by many. And according to the PS survey of stones, EGL USA was more accurate (if we are using AGS as the standard) in clarity than GIA.
reliability has to do with reproducability of results. (like, consistently off by one color)
accuracy has to do with the stone recieving the actual correct grading. (by objective standard if anyone can agree on any, lol)
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
Hi folks again,
I think I''ll go ahead and take the final word on this subject. Because HERE is an EGL USA LOS ANGELES cert where they called a GIA H SI2 a G VS2. Oh my, did I say " G VS2"???? Yes, I think I did....one more time... GGGGGGGGGGG VVVVVVVVVVVVVSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS2.
I got blasted for my comments on EGL vs. GIA. Synopsis of all the comments below. Pricescope shoppers, have you know I NEVER said "always", or never said "never"...I didn''t use absolutes. But I was challenged over and over and over on this link.
Bottom line is if a customer is comparing a .45ct round diamond then who cares if the diamond is off one letter. If it''s a .60ct diamond again, who cares. It''s hundreds of bucks at best, or most, or least, depending on the perspective.
However, when one sees REAL dollars difference is when you better ask why. Because I stand by my original comment. EGL CAN BE OFF 2 TO 4 LETTERS.
And I''ve just shown you a 2 letter off and now a THREE letter off...all from such the wonderful EGL USA LOS ANGELES lab.
Honestly I feel I deserve an apology here.
Pricescopers, you can bet if I have something to say I can back it up too.
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
I think I''ll go ahead and take the final word on this subject. Because HERE is an EGL USA LOS ANGELES cert where they called a GIA H SI2 a G VS2. Oh my, did I say " G VS2"???? Yes, I think I did....one more time... GGGGGGGGGGG VVVVVVVVVVVVVSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS2.
I got blasted for my comments on EGL vs. GIA. Synopsis of all the comments below. Pricescope shoppers, have you know I NEVER said "always", or never said "never"...I didn''t use absolutes. But I was challenged over and over and over on this link.
Bottom line is if a customer is comparing a .45ct round diamond then who cares if the diamond is off one letter. If it''s a .60ct diamond again, who cares. It''s hundreds of bucks at best, or most, or least, depending on the perspective.
However, when one sees REAL dollars difference is when you better ask why. Because I stand by my original comment. EGL CAN BE OFF 2 TO 4 LETTERS.
And I''ve just shown you a 2 letter off and now a THREE letter off...all from such the wonderful EGL USA LOS ANGELES lab.
Honestly I feel I deserve an apology here.
Pricescopers, you can bet if I have something to say I can back it up too.
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
And here are all the comments...I won''t call out names, the info is right on the thread...
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
On my comment "EGL can be off 2 to 4 grades":
"That isn''t true at all."
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
On my comment "EGL can be off 2 to 4 grades":
"That isn''t true at all."
"I believe several industry experts have agreed that while EGL-USA may be soft on color by ONE or TWO grades (not 4 ), they are not soft on clarity. An EGL-USA SI1 is likely to be a GIA SI1 or a VS2. "
"Generalizations which imply or outright say that a particular lab is always soft compared to the GIA or AGSL are not based on fact, but more on feeling or rumor"
"EGL-Israel has earned the poor reputation it now has, but it is not connected with EGL-USA. "
"I like the EGL-LA lab the best. In my opinion they are the strictest grading lab of the EGL franchise."
"They''re never 2 to 4 grades off. 1 off, at the most, and that''s usually on color. Sometimes they''re dead on the money."
"I would take that as the final word on the issue."
"Just to be specific, my comments were directed at the EGL-LA lab, not the EGL-NY lab. I''ve seen the NY lab be off 2 grades (usually not more than that), but I can''t remember seeing an LA report being off more than one grade, usually on color, but not always."
"Three or four grades I just don''t think is going to happen. My point being that the LA lab is more consistent and accurate with their grading. As consistent and accurate as GIA? No. But not as bad as your original post portrayed."
"The answer is "fairly reliable" but there is oftentimes a 1 grade margin of difference, from my experience."
coatimundi_org
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2007
- Messages
- 6,281
dbsdiamonds,
Why the anger? You shared your opinions. Others shared theirs. Grading is subjective. In my experience, EGL Los Angeles was spot on. Buy whatever stones graded by whatever lab you like.
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
No anger. If you read the comments above they were comments that challenged my opinion to the point that it appeared I didn''t know what I was talking about. One person remotely questioned the intent of sending a 2.50ct for an F VS2 grade...everything else was a hammer to my comments.
It was a roll call of heavy posters who basically said that what I said was not truthful. "Never" and basically figments of my emotional thought, and other comments. Or that EGL USA clarity is tougher than GIA. The folks out here should know the facts, right?
If one had said "You know, EGL USA is great on grading diamonds under 1/2ct, they are rarely off more than a letter or two and sometimes they are on the money" then I wouldn''t have cared less.
Everyone I showed this thread to said I was chided. I think everyone on here is great. Just don''t discredit my opinion with "nevers" and stuff that you see on the quote thread I provided.
I am in process of selling another diamond over 3ct called G SI1 by EGL USA in Los Angeles. I have already laid the facts down to the supplier as I know them. He can''t afford a $30k GIA budget but under $25k he is good to go. I never said I would not sell an EGL, what I said was basically that EGL can be intellectually dishonest in their grading.
Now I''ve shown a GIA H SI2 that EGL called a G VS2, from the lab that everyone notated. Another fact is that the H SI2 was sent back for regrade to GIA who concluded the same SI2 clarity grade.
So all is good, love is in the air.
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service
www.dbsdiamonds.com
It was a roll call of heavy posters who basically said that what I said was not truthful. "Never" and basically figments of my emotional thought, and other comments. Or that EGL USA clarity is tougher than GIA. The folks out here should know the facts, right?
If one had said "You know, EGL USA is great on grading diamonds under 1/2ct, they are rarely off more than a letter or two and sometimes they are on the money" then I wouldn''t have cared less.
Everyone I showed this thread to said I was chided. I think everyone on here is great. Just don''t discredit my opinion with "nevers" and stuff that you see on the quote thread I provided.
I am in process of selling another diamond over 3ct called G SI1 by EGL USA in Los Angeles. I have already laid the facts down to the supplier as I know them. He can''t afford a $30k GIA budget but under $25k he is good to go. I never said I would not sell an EGL, what I said was basically that EGL can be intellectually dishonest in their grading.
Now I''ve shown a GIA H SI2 that EGL called a G VS2, from the lab that everyone notated. Another fact is that the H SI2 was sent back for regrade to GIA who concluded the same SI2 clarity grade.
So all is good, love is in the air.
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service
www.dbsdiamonds.com
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Messages
- 4,924
I stand corrected.
My apologies.
My apologies.
dbsdiamonds
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 155
Thanks Richard...your input is invaluable to the community.
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
purrfectpear
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 4,079
You stated 3 to 4 as though it were common. I submit that it is not. In fact you have yet to show us an EGLUSA that was revised by 4 grade in either color or clarity by GIA.
Nothing to apologize for IMO. You clearly have your opinion, and I have mine. 1 to 2 grades is most likely the more common experience.
I believe the average diamond shopper is looking for the most common variance, not the less usual exception. Perhaps you disagree?
Occasionally (not frequently) GIA disagrees with themselves by a grade or so.
Nothing to apologize for IMO. You clearly have your opinion, and I have mine. 1 to 2 grades is most likely the more common experience.
I believe the average diamond shopper is looking for the most common variance, not the less usual exception. Perhaps you disagree?
Occasionally (not frequently) GIA disagrees with themselves by a grade or so.
blingybling
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2008
- Messages
- 40
hi,
i bought an egl-usa stone, which i returned. here is my post on it:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraised-egl-usa-stone-and-what-a-disappointment.91466/
good luck!
i bought an egl-usa stone, which i returned. here is my post on it:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraised-egl-usa-stone-and-what-a-disappointment.91466/
good luck!
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
dbsdiamonds,
You generally get treated the same way you treat others in another thread you ranted about consumer comments on scope images when it has been proven time and time again that you can tell a lot about a diamond using them.
Then in this thread you called out a bunch of consumers on the carpet.
Now you might get by doing that with me and with the trade members but others well you lost a lot of respect and owe them an apology.
The trade members calmly explains things they do not call consumers out if they want to last around here.
With the exception of me because I can more than hold my own, so feel free to call me out anytime but play nice with every other consumer.
You generally get treated the same way you treat others in another thread you ranted about consumer comments on scope images when it has been proven time and time again that you can tell a lot about a diamond using them.
Then in this thread you called out a bunch of consumers on the carpet.
Now you might get by doing that with me and with the trade members but others well you lost a lot of respect and owe them an apology.
The trade members calmly explains things they do not call consumers out if they want to last around here.
With the exception of me because I can more than hold my own, so feel free to call me out anytime but play nice with every other consumer.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 33,852
the color grade shouldn''t be off since they''re using a master set.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,150
The question is what is the most common discrepancy when compared to GIA grading or even what’s the range, it’s a question of whether customers can reasonably rely on information provided by EGL-USA.
I HAVE seen EGL-USA documents where I disagreed by 4 grades (total of both clarity and color) and, although I agree that this is an unusual situation, I routinely see them where I disagree by 2, especially with their Gem-ID service where they appear to be grading the stone in the mounting. I also routinely see them where I consider the grading to be spot on.
The original question is whether they can be relied on. Presumably a shopper is hoping to use the information on the report compare the attributes of the subject stone with some others and pick what best meets their requirements. Is it useful for that?
What do you know by an EGL/SI2/G grade? Is it similar to GIA/SI2/G’s? Maybe, but more importantly, can it even be counted on to be similar to other EGL/SI2/G’s? If some are spot on, some are overgraded by a little bit and some are overgraded by a lot, how is a shopper supposed to rely on this result? What have they learned by knowing this grade? Observing where most stones lie isn’t very helpful because they’re not interested in most stones, they’re interested in a particular stone. If a significant majority could be counted on to use consistent grading, whether or not the grading scale matches GIA then it’s possibly helpful but if the grading isn’t consistent then the results are at best useless.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
I HAVE seen EGL-USA documents where I disagreed by 4 grades (total of both clarity and color) and, although I agree that this is an unusual situation, I routinely see them where I disagree by 2, especially with their Gem-ID service where they appear to be grading the stone in the mounting. I also routinely see them where I consider the grading to be spot on.
The original question is whether they can be relied on. Presumably a shopper is hoping to use the information on the report compare the attributes of the subject stone with some others and pick what best meets their requirements. Is it useful for that?
What do you know by an EGL/SI2/G grade? Is it similar to GIA/SI2/G’s? Maybe, but more importantly, can it even be counted on to be similar to other EGL/SI2/G’s? If some are spot on, some are overgraded by a little bit and some are overgraded by a lot, how is a shopper supposed to rely on this result? What have they learned by knowing this grade? Observing where most stones lie isn’t very helpful because they’re not interested in most stones, they’re interested in a particular stone. If a significant majority could be counted on to use consistent grading, whether or not the grading scale matches GIA then it’s possibly helpful but if the grading isn’t consistent then the results are at best useless.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,150
Correction in the text above but I''m too late to edit to post directly.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
- Status
300x240.png)