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fire from distance

P: 7/24/2008 12:27:36 AM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	bf received the solasfera today. I haven't seen it yet, but will be in a couple days. I have a general question about fire. BF viewed the stone at home and he said when he was looking at the stone close (2 ft), there isn't much fire. When he looked at the stone 5 ft away the stone just lit up. Why do we see less fire close and tons of fire far away? Is it the same with H&A? I don't remember anything about H&A behaving like that when I was at the jewelry store.
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:27:36 AM

There are 25 replies to this message. There are 25 replies on this page.

P: 7/24/2008 9:01:12 AM
Haywood74 Rough Rock Total Posts: 68 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 5/1/2008	Could have been the lighting that was present when he was looking at it....If you have any question about your Solasfera, take it into direct sunlight. It will light up like there is no tomorrow I bet!
Posted: 7/24/2008 9:01:12 AM

P: 7/24/2008 9:07:21 AM
dockman3 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 547 Last Post: 3/5/2009 Member Since: 5/30/2008	From that close, my guess is that his head shadow was covering the diamond and not much light was getting to it. By backing up, more light was able to hit the diamond and return back to his eyes. I'm sure you've got nothing to worry about and its a great stone. As Haywood said, just take it out into the sunlight and you won't believe your eyes!
Posted: 7/24/2008 9:07:21 AM

P: 7/24/2008 1:13:37 PM
surfgirl Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,438 Last Post: 5/19/2009 Member Since: 4/5/2007	Sounds like a lighting issue because I know my stone has the same fire up close or far away. Ask him to look at the stone close up, but not standing over it directly. Depending on where the lighting source was, he might have been blocking it...?
Posted: 7/24/2008 1:13:37 PM

P: 7/24/2008 1:44:41 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/24/2008 1:13:37 PM Author: surfgirl Sounds like a lighting issue because I know my stone has the same fire up close or far away. Ask him to look at the stone close up, but not standing over it directly. Depending on where the lighting source was, he might have been blocking it...? yep. In most jewelery stores the lighting is carefully tuned to shine over your shoulder so if your facing the counter there will always be direct bright light hitting the diamond. Then other lights are shined from the front to light it up if the over the shoulder light is blocked. Some places where the sales person will stand is based on how tall you are so you get the full effect when you move to where they are. I have fun in such places by standing 3-4 feet away and making the sales guy move to me and watch them dance trying to get me to move to the "right" spot. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/24/2008 1:44:41 PM

P: 7/24/2008 2:47:30 PM
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,036 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001	Part of the answer is in the nature of fire and the way that the physics of light works and the way that our eyes perceive color in light. When we receive the entire spectrum of light in a ray of light we perceive that light as white (actually colorless). When light is bent coming out of an optically dense media it shows its colors, think of the prisms that we played with as children, breaking a ray of light into rainbows on the wall. Dispersion in a diamond is like that, but MUCH smaller. If the ray of light that is bent is narrower than the iris of the eye at the point at which it is seen by the eye, then the light will appear as a colorless sparkle. If the ray is wider than the iris of the eye, it will appear as a colored event, or disperion. The solisfera has ten arrows and more facets than a standard round brilliant cut diamoind. Thus both the facets and the virtual facets are much smaller than those from a standard round brilliant and will appear to have a lot more colorless events than the round when viewed close up. From several feet away the rays have had the time to expand to a width that is larger than the iris of the eye and thus you will receive the full benefit of the many thousands of extra virtual facets that the solisfera has. And that is why it appears to really light up from a distance. Just that pesky old science stuff... Wink Wink Jones GG Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds
Posted: 7/24/2008 2:47:30 PM

P: 7/24/2008 4:09:57 PM
glitterata Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,366 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 4/17/2002	That's very interesting. I've wondered about how much the size of the diamond affects how much fire we see. I've been playing with a .5 carat ideal cut, and from very close up (inches from my eye) it has tons of color, but from farther away it looks whiter--the opposite of what you just described, Wink. I hypothesized that because the flashes of color are so small, at a distance they blend together into what light. My 1.6ish ct OEC, on the other hand, looks very colorful from near and far. I hypothesized that that was because the flashes of light are bigger--both because the stone itself is bigger, and because the cut makes for bigger planes of light, rather than the needle-like arrows of modern brilliants. But this seems to contradict what Wink just said.
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:09:57 PM

P: 7/24/2008 9:55:53 PM
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,036 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001	Date: 7/24/2008 4:09:57 PM Author: glitterata That's very interesting. I've wondered about how much the size of the diamond affects how much fire we see. I've been playing with a .5 carat ideal cut, and from very close up (inches from my eye) it has tons of color, but from farther away it looks whiter--the opposite of what you just described, Wink. I hypothesized that because the flashes of color are so small, at a distance they blend together into what light. My 1.6ish ct OEC, on the other hand, looks very colorful from near and far. I hypothesized that that was because the flashes of light are bigger--both because the stone itself is bigger, and because the cut makes for bigger planes of light, rather than the needle-like arrows of modern brilliants. But this seems to contradict what Wink just said. LOL! Not necessarily. It is confusing stuff this science, which is why I leave most of it to my more scientifically minded friends. To know for sure we would need to see some light paths as the light is leaving the stone and determine the widths at the various distances at which you are viewing the stones. It could have something to do with the events being to small to be detected at a distance or other things that I am not competent to surmise or comment on, since you are looking at the gem and I am not I am perfectly willing to believe your statement, and know that a real light scientist could explain why this is happening in a manner that is totally congruent with what I said earlier. What I really know well is that I love diamonds and gems and I love the mysteries that they bring to my eyes each and every day. Wink Wink Jones GG Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds
Posted: 7/24/2008 9:55:53 PM

P: 7/24/2008 10:14:11 PM
smithy617 Rough Rock Total Posts: 67 Last Post: 12/22/2008 Member Since: 6/21/2008	when I look at my 1.22 aca using a spot light (halogen 50watts) directly, it doesn't light up that much...But >>> Here's the interesting part, when I use my hands to shadow the lighting....the diamond turns whiter and sparkles like crazy ???? Why is that???????????
Posted: 7/24/2008 10:14:11 PM

P: 7/24/2008 11:53:39 PM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	Thanks guys. Wink. I think what you said made sense. thanks.
Posted: 7/24/2008 11:53:39 PM

P: 7/25/2008 12:07:27 AM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	Date: 7/24/2008 10:14:11 PM Author: smithy617 when I look at my 1.22 aca using a spot light (halogen 50watts) directly, it doesn't light up that much...But >>> Here's the interesting part, when I use my hands to shadow the lighting....the diamond turns whiter and sparkles like crazy ???? Why is that??????????? Actually bf said with the solasfera, the stone seems to be sparkling in dime lights as well as strong lights, but in medium light, there isn't anything going on (all home ind light settings). Smithy, I am wondering whether there is anything call canceling of fire? Just like sound, 2 sound waves traveling opposite of each other can cancel out each other. When you shine a light directly at the ACA stone, all facets receive the same amount of light. In a symmetrical stone, color lights (fire) that were suppose to come off will be join by other colors to make things WHITE again, that's why you see no sparkles, but a whiter stone. OK. I suck at physics. Wink, please tell us more...
Posted: 7/25/2008 12:07:27 AM

P: 7/25/2008 3:58:12 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/25/2008 12:07:27 AM Author: lovegem Actually bf said with the solasfera, the stone seems to be sparkling in dime lights as well as strong lights, but in medium light, there isn't anything going on (all home ind light settings). move it a bit and watch it come to life. How big is the stone? solasfera's are not fireballs(until you hit 3ct or so) they are tuned to white light return and scintillation by a combination of the c/p angles and the small virtual facets. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:58:12 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:05:28 AM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	the stone is a 1.09 ct, G SI1
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:05:28 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:26:42 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/24/2008 4:09:57 PM Author: glitterata That's very interesting. I've wondered about how much the size of the diamond affects how much fire we see. I've been playing with a .5 carat ideal cut, and from very close up (inches from my eye) it has tons of color, but from farther away it looks whiter--the opposite of what you just described, Wink. I hypothesized that because the flashes of color are so small, at a distance they blend together into what light. My 1.6ish ct OEC, on the other hand, looks very colorful from near and far. I hypothesized that that was because the flashes of light are bigger--both because the stone itself is bigger, and because the cut makes for bigger planes of light, rather than the needle-like arrows of modern brilliants. But this seems to contradict what Wink just said. The virtual facets of a RB vary in size from med. to small. The virtual facets of an oec range from large to small. The med sized virtual facet on a 1.6ish oec is larger than the largest virtual facet on a .5ct RB. An oec typically draws light from different locations than a RB (more and different locations of green in an ASET image) The oec will have more separation between the flashes because of the larger virtual facets and likely isn't as directional. Small flashes from small virtual facets with little separation tend to combine and be seen as white light. Btw I'm not convinced that it is correct that small colored flashes will be seen as white light. Take a black piece of paper and poke very very tiny holes in it with a sharp sewing needle. put a piece of red paper behind it. Shine a bright light behind it towards the red paper so you see red dots where the tiny holes are at. No matter how close you get to the paper the red spots never turn white. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:26:42 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:29:32 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/25/2008 4:05:28 AM Author: lovegem the stone is a 1.09 ct, G SI1 should be very very bright with a ton of scintillation but I wouldn't expect a lot of fire out of it. Is the stone mounted? Is the diamond from GOG? if so can I get a link to its webpage? ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:29:32 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:38:13 AM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	no the stone is not "mounted" as mounted in a ring setting, but it is "mounted" on something that looks like a ring for display. Yes, it is very bright (so bf said). I always thought sparkles (scintillation) are fire. I have to be honest, if fire is "red, green, blue" color, I have never seen anything like that from even H&A stones in the 1ct range. I am more confused than ever.
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:38:13 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:39:10 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/24/2008 10:14:11 PM Author: smithy617 when I look at my 1.22 aca using a spot light (halogen 50watts) directly, it doesn't light up that much...But >>> Here's the interesting part, when I use my hands to shadow the lighting....the diamond turns whiter and sparkles like crazy ???? Why is that??????????? check out this vid. http://diamondscope.pricescope.com/?src=GarryhPro.wmv ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:39:10 AM

P: 7/25/2008 4:55:43 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/25/2008 4:38:13 AM Author: lovegem no the stone is not 'mounted' as mounted in a ring setting, but it is 'mounted' on something that looks like a ring for display. Yes, it is very bright (so bf said). I always thought sparkles (scintillation) are fire. I have to be honest, if fire is 'red, green, blue' color, I have never seen anything like that from even H&A stones in the 1ct range. I am more confused than ever. fire is colored light return: see this thread for pictures of diamond fire: http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=77649 scintillation is the on/off flashes of light as the diamond or the light is moved. sparkle is both scintillation and static hot/bright spots to most people. In the thread I linked you will also see samples of hot spots. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:55:43 AM

P: 7/25/2008 5:25:24 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Here are the virtual facets in a solasfera and a RB. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 5:25:24 AM

P: 7/25/2008 5:59:49 AM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	Strm, I just realized you asked for a link to the stone. Here it is. http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/4568/
Posted: 7/25/2008 5:59:49 AM

P: 7/25/2008 10:31:41 AM
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,036 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001	Date: 7/25/2008 4:26:42 AM Author: strmrdr Date: 7/24/2008 4:09:57 PM Author: glitterata That's very interesting.&#13;&#10;&#13;&#10;I've wondered about how much the size of the diamond affects how much fire we see. I've been playing with a .5 carat ideal cut, and from very close up (inches from my eye) it has tons of color, but from farther away it looks whiter--the opposite of what you just described, Wink. I hypothesized that because the flashes of color are so small, at a distance they blend together into what light. My 1.6ish ct OEC, on the other hand, looks very colorful from near and far. I hypothesized that that was because the flashes of light are bigger--both because the stone itself is bigger, and because the cut makes for bigger planes of light, rather than the needle-like arrows of modern brilliants. But this seems to contradict what Wink just said. The virtual facets of a RB vary in size from med. to small. The virtual facets of an oec range from large to small. The med sized virtual facet on a 1.6ish oec is larger than the largest virtual facet on a .5ct RB. An oec typically draws light from different locations than a RB (more and different locations of green in an ASET image) The oec will have more separation between the flashes because of the larger virtual facets and likely isn't as directional. Small flashes from small virtual facets with little separation tend to combine and be seen as white light. Btw I'm not convinced that it is correct that small colored flashes will be seen as white light. Take a black piece of paper and poke very very tiny holes in it with a sharp sewing needle. put a piece of red paper behind it. Shine a bright light behind it towards the red paper so you see red dots where the tiny holes are at. No matter how close you get to the paper the red spots never turn white. Different things. In dispersion, the color you are seeing is the part of the ray of light that is bent into the spectral colors, like going through a prism. In fact if you have a steady hand sometimes you can slowly move a diamond and watch the dispersion change from one color to another. In the paper experiment that you refer to above the light is no longer white light, since it is coming off the colored paper which has absorbed some of the spectrum leaving our eyes perceiving the resultant color as red. Thus the color that we see is no longer dependant on the ray of light at our iris being wider than our iris to avoid it being perceived of as white light. Somewhere on this board is a thread about the class I took at AGS two or three years ago that documents this, including pictures. Perhaps one of our archivists can find it for us. Wink Wink Jones GG Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds
Posted: 7/25/2008 10:31:41 AM

P: 7/25/2008 10:36:39 AM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,254 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	Date: 7/25/2008 10:31:41 AM Author: Wink Somewhere on this board is a thread about the class I took at AGS two or three years ago that documents this, including pictures. Perhaps one of our archivists can find it for us. Wink Wink, is this it? http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=40823 Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 7/25/2008 10:36:39 AM

P: 7/25/2008 2:54:20 PM
oldminer Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,964 Last Post: 11/20/2009 Member Since: 9/4/2000	It stands to reason that white light broken into its spectral colors may be more visibly colored at a greater distance than close up to where the break-up is occurring. The white light is spreading apart as its colors become visible since each color moves are a slightly differing speed through air (or any other medium). As you step back from the prismatic effect, the distance increases in the spread of the spectral display. More colors could be easily seen at a distance than close up. David S. Atlas GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA www.datlas.com
Posted: 7/25/2008 2:54:20 PM

P: 7/25/2008 3:37:37 PM
Wink Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,036 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 5/4/2001	Date: 7/25/2008 10:36:39 AM Author: Lorelei Date: 7/25/2008 10:31:41 AM Author: Wink Somewhere on this board is a thread about the class I took at AGS two or three years ago that documents this, including pictures. Perhaps one of our archivists can find it for us. Wink Wink, is this it? http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=40823 Yes brilliant lady, thank you! Wink Wink Jones GG Winfield's/High Performance Diamonds
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:37:37 PM

P: 7/25/2008 3:53:47 PM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,254 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	Date: 7/25/2008 3:37:37 PM Author: Wink Date: 7/25/2008 10:36:39 AM Author: Lorelei Date: 7/25/2008 10:31:41 AM Author: Wink Somewhere on this board is a thread about the class I took at AGS two or three years ago that documents this, including pictures. Perhaps one of our archivists can find it for us. Wink Wink, is this it? http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=40823 Yes brilliant lady, thank you! Wink awww shucks...* blush* you are most welcome! Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:53:47 PM

P: 7/25/2008 5:30:47 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/25/2008 2:54:20 PM Author: oldminer It stands to reason that white light broken into its spectral colors may be more visibly colored at a greater distance than close up to where the break-up is occurring. The white light is spreading apart as its colors become visible since each color moves are a slightly differing speed through air (or any other medium). As you step back from the prismatic effect, the distance increases in the spread of the spectral display. More colors could be easily seen at a distance than close up. makes sense ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/25/2008 5:30:47 PM

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