Diamond Jewelry Forums

Picture Gallery

Video Gallery

|

Search |

Posted Today |

Most Active |

Help

ť Home ť

ť Diamond Prices and Grading ť

ť RockyTalky ť

ť Brilliancescope revisited

Brilliancescope revisited

P: 7/13/2008 12:50:49 PM
agc Cut Rock Total Posts: 111 Last Post: 12/10/2008 Member Since: 4/16/2008	I know there has been alot written on this forum about brilliancescope results and I have read them. However, I am still unclear on interpreting them. What is the difference between a high and a very high in an ideal RB? Is the difference splitting hairs and not discernable with human stereoscopic vision or is it clearly visible? If there is a clear difference between a high and a very high then how much separates the two ratings? Also, do certain combinations give a distinct look such as a high/very high/high looking more firery then other combinations? I realize BS results are for direct/bright lighting whereas Isee2 is for diffuse but I'm just trying to get a better handle on interpreting all the data available to us today.
Posted: 7/13/2008 12:50:49 PM

There are 15 replies to this message. There are 15 replies on this page.

P: 7/14/2008 5:57:32 AM
Paul-Antwerp Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,910 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/3/2002	The BS gives scores for 'white light', 'colored light' and 'scintillation'. It is highly debatable and unlikely that the score for 'scintillation' has any true meaning. The machine has one fixed lighting environment (divided in a number of consecutive setups) not covering all potential lighting environments. From these particular environments, a score for white and colored light is deducted. The validity of these scores highly depends on the validity of the lighting environments. I would guess that the score for white light in round brilliants has some meaning. In other shapes, which grab their light from a much broader area, this becomes doubtful. And the score for colored light is doubtful, because fire depends more on the lighting environment than from anything else. All in all, the scores as such on the BS are difficult to work with, I think. Some people however have a lot of experience with the various pics, and pay more attention to these. Live long, Paul Slegers Infinity Diamonds www.CraftedByInfinity.com
Posted: 7/14/2008 5:57:32 AM

P: 7/14/2008 7:17:33 AM
agc Cut Rock Total Posts: 111 Last Post: 12/10/2008 Member Since: 4/16/2008	Thanks Paul, I am still trying to figure out what separates a high from a very high and is it discernable with the human eye. Since the BS using a mono lens then intreprets the pixels recorded in different light views into white, color and other and then divides the white pixels by the total pixels of the diamond (for white light return) to come up with a %. What % gives high and where does it cross over to very high? Is the scale linear? 0-25% low,26-50% med, 51-75% High, 76-100% v high or is it skewed like 0-50% low, 50-85% med, 85-95% high and 96-100% v high?
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:17:33 AM

P: 7/14/2008 8:02:24 AM
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,614 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004	The scale being used is deliberately proprietary. As Paul points out, there is a fair amount of confusion as to exactly what is being measured and whether this measurement produces anything useful but also the scale being applied is the result of a secret algorythm, which makes the results meaningless beyond saying that Gemex likes this one. For many people this is sufficient but they do not make the raw data available beyond providing the 6 photographs, only their conclusions. Its very much like when your car dealer grades one as a creampuff. This may or may not be accurate and it may be a terrific car, but if you dont understand the scale and dont know what is being evaluated, what have you really learned? Neil Beaty GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA Professional Appraisals in Denver There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:02:24 AM

P: 7/14/2008 9:17:04 AM
Ellen Ideal Rock Total Posts: 22,894 Last Post: 11/6/2009 Member Since: 1/13/2006	I would concentrate more on learning about cut and optimal numbers, plus what a good Idealscope pic looks like (which IS widely accepted as measuring light return). That should get you a nice stone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any 'conspiracy theory of history' for a search for 'conspiracies' means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds." -Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State John Swinton [1829-1901] Chief Editorial Writer of the New York Times (Considered "the Dean of his Profession" by his peers), when asked to toast an 'Independent Press' in a gathering at the National Press Club, circa 1880 "There is no such thing in America as an independent press unless it is in the country towns. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dare express an honest opinion. If you express it you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid... for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things.... The business of the New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and sell his country and race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same thing, his salary. You know this, and I know it and what foolery to be toasting an 'independent press.' We are tools, and the vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, all are the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:17:04 AM

P: 7/14/2008 1:53:54 PM
agc Cut Rock Total Posts: 111 Last Post: 12/10/2008 Member Since: 4/16/2008	Neil, That is the exact problem I have had with interpreting the BS as I don't their scale and what exactly they are measuring. I had hoped someone else had figured that out. Ellen, I am not trying to use the BS as a stand alone test to evaluate diamonds but was trying to decide if it offered ANY value in evaluating ideal/super ideal diamonds. I am very comfortable interpreting reflector based technology images and understand good CA/PA combos etc. But what happens when you get two or three diamonds with HCA below two, excellent IS/diamxray image etc and appropriate CA/PA combos, helium scan with minimal deviation and no significant azimuth shift/yaw, but different BS results between the diamonds. I realize that more than likely all the diamonds would be "beautiful" but is the BS tellings us something useful to make a more informed decision.
Posted: 7/14/2008 1:53:54 PM

P: 7/14/2008 2:24:50 PM
John Pollard Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,533 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 5/1/2008	Date: 7/14/2008 1:53:54 PM Author: agc But what happens when you get two or three diamonds with HCA below two, excellent IS/diamxray image etc and appropriate CA/PA combos, helium scan with minimal deviation and no significant azimuth shift/yaw, but different BS results between the diamonds. I realize that more than likely all the diamonds would be 'beautiful' but is the BS tellings us something useful to make a more informed decision. Once you have such elite candidates it's impossible to say, since taste between humans varies and diamonds of equal appeal can score differently in accordance with the mechanical metric. Look at it this way: The top five finalists in the Miss America pageant may be equally wonderful, but if you were asked to select a wife from among them would you allow some anonymous judge to do it for you? No. The right choice at that level is entirely personal. In live purchasing situations a shoppers eyes can overrule the sliding scores. You have the next best thing: The dealer youre working with chooses to employ an abundance of tools - some of which have more credibility than others. Unlike inexperienced operators at mall stores using the Brilliancescope, your dealer has vast experience correlating its results with top diamond cuts. We can give you theory here, but he is best equipped to answer your questions in a meaningful way where taste is concerned. John __________________________ John Pollard Infinity Diamonds www.CraftedByInfinity.com
Posted: 7/14/2008 2:24:50 PM

P: 7/14/2008 2:39:21 PM
denverappraiser Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,614 Last Post: 11/22/2009 Member Since: 7/21/2004	Date: 7/14/2008 1:53:54 PM Author: agc I am not trying to use the BS as a stand alone test to evaluate diamonds but was trying to decide if it offered ANY value in evaluating ideal/super ideal diamonds. No, I dont think the BS scores provide any information useful for your purpose. Neil Beaty GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
Posted: 7/14/2008 2:39:21 PM

P: 7/14/2008 5:07:07 PM
lovegem Cut Rock Total Posts: 387 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 12/26/2007	Are the light location in the BS the same for all machines? Or they can be set at different location by the operator? The BS images (or GemEx images) gives out 6 views and I believe if the light source (the location of the light) is different, then you can't compare two diamonds? For example, diamond 1, view 1 has a light source that is 20 cm from the diamond, whereas diamond 2, image for view 1 was captured by light source at 24 cm, then these two diamonds will not be comparable right? Of course, you can look at the scale bars, but these don't mean much now without knowing where the lights were coming from.
Posted: 7/14/2008 5:07:07 PM

P: 7/14/2008 6:25:29 PM
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,582 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000	One problem with many cut grading approaches is they establish a grade system based on the best cuts. So it is frequently possible to design a proportion combination that hits the key spots, but is a bad looking diamond. It would not be difficult to do this with the brillianscope. this pair of ETAs images shows 2 stones - a tolkwosky 57% table and one with a 1 degree deeper pavilion. You can see how the 'circles' change. Since the Gemex Brilliancescope does this same thing in reverse - you can imagine that all you neeed to know is the positions of the lights and one can ensure that all ones diamonds line up. I know cutters who do this where they know the diamonds are being streamed to Gemex clients. A bit like doping in sport? Maybe? Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT HCA and Ideal-scope developer http://www.ideal-scope.com and http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:25:29 PM

P: 7/14/2008 7:50:14 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/14/2008 6:25:29 PM Author: Garry H (Cut Nut) One problem with many cut grading approaches is they establish a grade system based on the best cuts. So it is frequently possible to design a proportion combination that hits the key spots, but is a bad looking diamond. It would not be difficult to do this with the brillianscope. this pair of ETAs images shows 2 stones - a tolkwosky 57% table and one with a 1 degree deeper pavilion. You can see how the 'circles' change. Since the Gemex Brilliancescope does this same thing in reverse - you can imagine that all you neeed to know is the positions of the lights and one can ensure that all ones diamonds line up. I know cutters who do this where they know the diamonds are being streamed to Gemex clients. A bit like doping in sport? Maybe? Not really a fair duo of diamonds as the b-scope would hammer the second. While it is true that somewhat directional diamonds with high light return score best on the b-scope that isn't a bad thing as they are some of the best looking RB diamonds to me. Notice I said SOME there are many other types of beauty. In general a diamond scoring h white VH color will likely have slightly more dispersion than one that scores vh/vh while the vh/vh stone will be more directional. Using the b-scope on fancies is an exercise in disaster but it is somewhat informative to me on rounds. The pictures are more interesting to me than the scores. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:50:14 PM

P: 7/14/2008 8:00:31 PM
John Pollard Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,533 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 5/1/2008	Date: 7/14/2008 7:50:14 PM Author: strmrdr Using the b-scope on fancies is an exercise in disaster but it is somewhat informative to me on rounds. The pictures are more interesting to me than the scores. Bringing us full circle to the first reply... Date: 7/14/2008 5:57:32 AM Author: Paul-Antwerp All in all, the scores as such on the BS are difficult to work with, I think. Some people however have a lot of experience with the various pics, and pay more attention to these. Live long, (new readers are invited to pop some popcorn and search "Brilliancescope" - you might even enjoy it more than Gigli). John __________________________ John Pollard Infinity Diamonds www.CraftedByInfinity.com
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:00:31 PM

P: 7/14/2008 8:05:32 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	What I find most interesting about the b-scope is in comparison to ASET. ASET shows where the light is coming from, B-scope score is based on where the light is going and its intensity. I can pretty much guarantee a diamond that scores vh/vh on the b-scope in bright direct light with the diamond pointed towards the eye is going to dazzle the person looking at it. There are however one area that I think is totally useless and that is the scintillation score. My personal opinion is that the b-scope and similar tools can not measure scintillation and neither can the ASET or IS. Ray tracing can approximate it but the problem comes in when converting it to 2D to display it. It is a 5 factor problem that has height width depth movement and intensity. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:05:32 PM

P: 7/14/2008 8:14:29 PM
John Pollard Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,533 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 5/1/2008	Date: 7/14/2008 8:05:32 PM Author: strmrdr What I find most interesting about the b-scope is in comparison to ASET. ASET shows where the light is coming from, B-scope score is based on where the light is going and its intensity. I can pretty much guarantee a diamond that scores vh/vh on the b-scope in bright direct light with the diamond pointed towards the eye is going to dazzle the person looking at it. There are however one area that I think is totally useless and that is the scintillation score. My personal opinion is that the b-scope and similar tools can not measure scintillation and neither can the ASET or IS. Ray tracing can approximate it but the problem comes in when converting it to 2D to display it. It is a 5 factor problem that has height width depth movement and intensity. The difference to many professionals, of course, is that Brilliancescope pretends to measure this. Ideal-Scope and ASET do not. John __________________________ John Pollard Infinity Diamonds www.CraftedByInfinity.com
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:14:29 PM

P: 7/14/2008 8:15:44 PM
Garry H (Cut Nut) Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,582 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2000	Date: 7/14/2008 7:50:14 PM Author: strmrdr Not really a fair duo of diamonds as the b-scope would hammer the second. I was not trying to use an actual example storm - rather to show interested people "how to do it" It is neither hard, nor has it not been done by other DiamCalc users. Infact I met with Randy Wagner in Vegas and asked him if he would like the brilliancescope lighting positions to be modelled in DiiamCalc - he said no, which might not be a surprise since it would be easy to see each of the images that you get some value from. Garry Holloway FGAA DipDT HCA and Ideal-scope developer http://www.ideal-scope.com and http://www.HollowayDiamonds.com.au
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:15:44 PM

P: 7/14/2008 8:20:32 PM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 7/14/2008 8:14:29 PM Author: John Pollard The difference to many professionals, of course, is that Brilliancescope pretends to measure this. Ideal-Scope and ASET do not. Makes a difference to me too and I try to point it out every time the B-scope is discussed. I wish they would drop it. I am really lukewarm on the B-scope while I can get something from it but in many ways it is very flawed. So are all the other tools in their own ways. The ultimate diamond performance tool hasn't been invented yet and likely never will. DiamCalc comes closest but suffers from GIGO(garbage scans in garbage out, which is one reason why it isn't a grading tool) DC is the best diamond design and design evaluation tool available however. If the B-scope report is available I will use it as one of my tools but it far from the most important one. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 7/14/2008 8:20:32 PM

Previous Page

Next Page

Ť Is my diamond worthless without a certificate? Ť

ť Thoughts on I1 diamond ť

Jump to:

Contact Us \| Back Home \| Privacy Statement \| Forum Agreement \| Forum Policies
Ideal BB Version: 0.1.5.4.beta1	Message forum software powered by the Ideal BB

Pricescope - Knowledge - Diamond Prices - Tools - Resources - About

Š 2000-2009 Pricescope. Terms of Use Privacy Policy Disclaimer
forum archives