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 » RockyTalky
»  » need some clarity clarification
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need some clarity clarification |
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| P: 9/7/2003 7:49:34 PM | |
sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
I've gotten all kinds of information about clarity by reading about diamonds here and elsewhere on the web, and I'm trying to make sense of the information I've gleaned so as to apply it to a diamond I'm considering purchasing. This stone has a black carbon inclusion visible at the edge of the table when the stone is viewed face up with no magnification. The dealer is selling this as an SI1 stone. Should I be able to see a black pinpoint face up in an SI1 stone? My suspicion is no... am I right? Or is an SI1 stone not necessarily eyeclean when face up?!
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 7:49:34 PM | |
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There are 21 replies to this message. There are 21 replies on this page. |
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| P: 9/7/2003 8:00:48 PM | |
Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,879 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
Is the stone certed by a major lab, or is it "in store" grading? It's possible for an SI-1 to have an eye visible inclusion. It depends on the type, size, location, and color of the inclusion(s). An otherwise fairly clean diamond with a small, slightly eye visible black crystal inclusion on the edge of the stone might rank an SI-1. Ask him if he has the capability of taking a photo of the stone. We could advise you better upon seeing the inclusion. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 9/7/2003 8:00:48 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 8:48:32 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
Hi Rich, Thanks for the info. The stone isn't lab certified. I do have a photo of it, but it's not clear enough to fully show the inclusion, which is a readily visible black sphere located on the table. The stone is in my possession (I have 10 days to decide whether to buy it), so I might just run it by the PGS lab here in Chicago for a verbal assessment. I'm not so concerned about having it certified; it's an OMC and I'm inclined to judge it by its looks rather than the numbers. But although it's a beautiful stone and I wouldn't be averse to buying it even if its clarity is lower than stated, I definitely would be averse to paying for a higher clarity grade than I'd be getting! Thanks again for your input.... I'm posting two photos below, just in case anything can be determined by a glance at it, though again the specifics of the inclusion are vague at best here. The first is the photo of the whole stone; the second is a zoomed-in look at the area of the stone with the inclusion. In the original photo the inclusion is located around 2 o'clock near the edge of the table. add: I should also note that the seller has an excellent reputation, and I don't think he'd intentionally misrepresent the stone. And since this inclusion is easily visible, I doubt he missed it. So I suspect I'm most likely wrong about the clarity grade... but it's a big purchase, so I want to be certain! 
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 8:48:32 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 8:49:45 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
first photo...
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 8:49:45 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 8:52:16 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
and the zoomed one...
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 8:52:16 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 9:01:10 PM | |
TheDiamondangel Cut Rock Total Posts: 239 Last Post: 10/6/2005 Member Since: 3/12/2003 |
Have you actually seen the stone in person yet? It is possible for there to be carbon spots that show up in a magnified picture such as the one you posted, but not show up in real life when viewing the stone with the naked eye. A while back I had been considering an oval stone that had several carbon spots in a photo, but they were not eye-visible when viewing the stone in person.
TheDiamondangel |
| Posted: 9/7/2003 9:01:10 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 9:06:06 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
Hi DiamondAngel, I've got the stone right here with me. In fact, I didn't notice the inclusion in the photo at first. It was only after I saw the stone in person that I realized that the black dot in the photo was not just the way the light looked in the picture. I noticed the inclusion immediately when I saw the stone. My fiance did too-- he thought it was a piece of dirt on the surface of the table, and was surprised when he couldn't rub it off!
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 9:06:06 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 9:10:46 PM | |
diane5006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 641 Last Post: 10/11/2009 Member Since: 4/8/2003 |
HI...I had noticed the pic of the ring you are plannig in a previous post very nice... I am a fan of OMC and Cushions myself I just got a Regent for my e-ring...really awesome cushion shape...with H&A, and WOW brilliance...this cut might work well with your planned ring Just thought I would mention it Best of luck in your search diane |
| Posted: 9/7/2003 9:10:46 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 10:04:52 PM | |
NewYorker Cut Rock Total Posts: 249 Last Post: 10/17/2003 Member Since: 7/31/2003 |
I think if a prong could hide it you should buy it. Otherwise, buy it if it won't drive you crazy. I think in time you may like it because it's yours and the ID spot is right there saying, "yup, it's me!" Okay, it's late, but if the price is right and a prong could hide it I'd consider it. Otherwise, your search continues..... Let us know what you decide. Tanya |
| Posted: 9/7/2003 10:04:52 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 11:11:37 PM | |
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TheDiamondangel Cut Rock Total Posts: 239 Last Post: 10/6/2005 Member Since: 3/12/2003 |
Well, then you need to decide just how much it bothers you. If you love the stone, but that little spot is annoying to you now...it's going to eat away at you over time, and eventually drive you to upgrading the stone. If you consider it to be simply a little birthmark or beauty mark that is just a characteristic of your diamond, and the stone just sings to you, buy it. Personally, if you can see it with your naked eyes, can it really be considered an SI1? To me, if you can see it, it's I1 (no matter how subtle). JMHO, don't flame me for it please. TheDiamondangel |
| Posted: 9/7/2003 11:11:37 PM | |
| P: 9/7/2003 11:23:01 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
DiamondAngel-- Oh, I certainly won't flame you for that comment! In fact, it's just such opinions that I was seeking here, so I'm delighted to have your input about the clarity grade. I personally do find the little inclusion charming, although I think it bothers my fiance a little. One of the big attractions of the old cuts is their individual personalities, I think. But because the price (around $4200 for a J color 1.46 ct lively OMC) reflects an SI1 grading, I do think I had better be sure I shouldn't be paying less! Diane, thanks for the information about the Regents cut. I think the quirky hand-cut OMCs are a little more my personal style, but the Regents are amazing! Did you post a picture of your ring online? I'd love to see that. Tanya- I think I'd have to have pretty long prongs to cover this little spot! It's smack on the table. If the PGS lab thinks the stone is more of an I-clarity, maybe I can negotiate a lower price, and this charming little stone and I will live happily ever after, flaws and all. 
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| Posted: 9/7/2003 11:23:01 PM | |
| P: 9/8/2003 6:07:37 AM | |
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Richard Sherwood Ideal Rock Total Posts: 4,879 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 9/25/2002 |
PGS is a good lab. I'd get their opinion. DiamondAngel, an eye visible inclusion doesn't necessarily knock a stone down into an I1 category. There's other factors which decide the grade other than eye visibility. Size, nature, color and location of the inclusion all play a part in assigning the grade. It's tough to tell from the photo, but if the inclusion is inside the table, my gut instinct is that it's probably an SI2, possibly an I1. Rich, Independent GG Appraiser |
| Posted: 9/8/2003 6:07:37 AM | |
| P: 9/8/2003 8:06:03 AM | |
fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
Yeah, especially since the table is so small on an OEC. I have an OEC 1.25c that has been graded as an SI2. I can not, for the life of me, see *anything* w/ my naked eye. Good luck.
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| Posted: 9/8/2003 8:06:03 AM | |
| P: 9/8/2003 12:35:16 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'm taking the stone to PGS this afternoon and will post the results when I have them!
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| Posted: 9/8/2003 12:35:16 PM | |
| P: 9/8/2003 1:45:19 PM | |
Giangi Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,530 Last Post: 10/29/2006 Member Since: 1/23/2003 |
Accurate grading is impossible from a pic, but the stone looks SI 2 or a good PGS- SI 3, being the inclusion on the table.
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| Posted: 9/8/2003 1:45:19 PM | |
| P: 9/8/2003 6:45:02 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
Well! I'm rather taken aback after this afternoon's visit to the appraiser. I didn't get a certificate done-- just an oral assessment, with the appraiser explaining his reasons for giving the grades he gave. He felt the clarity was a low SI2 or maybe SI3. No surprises there. What shocked me was the color. We were sold the stone as J... turns out it's an N! I love the warm color of the stone, but I sure don't love being asked to pay for a much higher color grade than what I'm getting. I could understand if the color grade were one off, but the discrepancy between J and N is hard to justify. The appraiser compared the diamond to his master set, showing me each of the colors from J-N next to my stone. The J master stone next to the diamond I have made it pretty plain to me that someone-- either wholesaler or broker-- ought to have caught this. In addition, the appraiser pointed out a visible chip in the side of the diamond. He said it might be a quirk of the original cutter's work, but that it's also possible an inclusion was polished off. So the stone is going right back where it came from-- thank goodness for the 10 day return policy. I'm trying to think of a polite way to mention the problems with the stone to my broker. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was having an off (VERY off) day... but I do feel like I ought to say something. Apologies for the rambling... I'm still experiencing a combination of shock and dejection. 
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| Posted: 9/8/2003 6:45:02 PM | |
| P: 9/9/2003 9:14:21 AM | |
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fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
OMG!!!!   I would run away from that dealer. I don't know if I would mention it unless asked.
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| Posted: 9/9/2003 9:14:21 AM | |
| P: 9/9/2003 10:02:27 AM | |
aljdewey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 8,236 Last Post: 2/11/2008 Member Since: 11/25/2002 |
Oh my goodness......I would HIGHLY second F&I's advice. A discrepancy that enormous....along with the CHIP...etc.....I personally wouldn't want to continue with that dealer for anything. Agree also that it's not worth mentioning unless you're asked. Why get into a long discussion about whether the appraiser you went to is/isn't right, etc. If you want to make it easy....tell the broker your GF said no, and be out of there! _____________________ |
| Posted: 9/9/2003 10:02:27 AM | |
| P: 9/11/2003 9:25:12 AM | |
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fire&ice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,827 Last Post: 3/30/2009 Member Since: 7/22/2002 |
Bump. I'm curious about the resolution.
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| Posted: 9/11/2003 9:25:12 AM | |
| P: 9/11/2003 10:20:09 AM | |
Hest88 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,681 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 1/22/2003 |
How did I miss this thread? As an OMC lover, I'm curious to see if you ended up getting something else.
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| Posted: 9/11/2003 10:20:09 AM | |
| P: 9/11/2003 2:42:50 PM | |
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sphondyloid Rough Rock Total Posts: 12 Last Post: 11/24/2003 Member Since: 9/6/2003 |
Hi everyone, Well, the diamond's going back tonight. I had my fiance call to arrange the return and told him to say that I had made the decision if he was asked why we were sending it back. The seller's assistant kept probing about it, and he finally said that I had had it appraised and the results didn't match what we were told about the diamond. She seemed surprised, and didn't have much to say after that! So it's back to the diamond drawing board... sigh. Thanks to all of you who helped out here!
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| Posted: 9/11/2003 2:42:50 PM | |
| P: 9/11/2003 3:07:19 PM | |
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diane5006 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 641 Last Post: 10/11/2009 Member Since: 4/8/2003 |
HI bummer about the appraisal...here is the pic you asked about Hopefully you will find you stone soon  diane |
| Posted: 9/11/2003 3:07:19 PM | |
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7:37 AM Richard Sherwood wrote: 