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Hi help a newbie make his selection

P: 6/4/2008 9:52:34 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Hi, I'm new here and I am in a dilemma. I am about to invest in a stone, and it seems the more I learn, the more complex the selection becomes. I must say that the more I take in, the more I find myself developing a greater interest in understanding the factors that effect the overall performance of a stone. Unfortunately for me its crunch time, and I must make a decision soon. Although I will probably still have a keen interest in diamond physics. Stone #1: Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.40 - 5.42 x 3.21 mm Carat Weight: 0.56 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Very Good Proportions: Depth: 59.3 % Table: 57 % Crown Angle: 32.5° Crown Height: 13.5 % Pavilion Angle: 40.8° Pavilion Depth: 43 % Star length: 55 % Lower Half: 75 % Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Crystal, Cloud, Pinpoint Stone #2 Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.39 - 5.41 x 3.31 mm Carat Weight: 0.59 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 61.3 % Table: 57 % Crown Angle: 33.5° Crown Height: 14 % Pavilion Angle: 41° Pavilion Depth: 43.5 % Star length: 50 % Lower Half: 80 % Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Needle, Cloud HCA results: Stone #1 returns excellent for brilliance, fire, scintillation and spread. Overall score = 0.7 Stone #2 returns excellent for brilliance, fire, scintillation. v.good spread. Overall score = 1.1 Both stones are going for the same price. Stone 1, falls just below GIA tracing on HCA plot. Stone 2, falls within GIA and AGS region. Note that stone 2 is also a 59 pointer while stone 1 is a 56 pointer. Any comments and help to guide me to my final selection would be very much appreciated. Thanks
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:52:34 PM

There are 34 replies to this message. There are 30 replies on this page.

P: 6/4/2008 10:21:01 PM
NeverEndingUpgrade Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,536 Last Post: 11/14/2009 Member Since: 10/3/2007	They both sound good to me (as much as I know, which isn't much). Does the diamond vendor have photos of these stones?
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:21:01 PM

P: 6/4/2008 10:31:09 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Not that I know of. The diamond vendor simply sourced 2 stones meeting the specifications of a stone I saw elsewhere. I only just received the GIA reference numbers so I haven't even asked yet. I suspect he doesn't have the stones to hand, they are probably located in another country at present.
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:31:09 PM

P: 6/4/2008 10:36:29 PM
Skippy123 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 19,827 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 11/24/2006	I like the 2nd one best but hopefully others will chime in. Have you seen copies of the GIA certs. Was there anything in the notes of the 1st one? Skippy "The only things that stand between a person and what they want in life are the will to try it, and the faith to believe it's possible" Rich Devos
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:36:29 PM

P: 6/4/2008 10:46:18 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Unfortunately no, I was just emailed the reference numbers, which I then input into GIA Report Check. All the information on the check, is in the first post.
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:46:18 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:03:08 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Number 2. Number 1 would be more suited for earrings/pendant.
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:03:08 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:20:15 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Hi, JulieN, is that because of the 'thin to medium' girdle? I am myself leaning towards number 2 also, I think the girdle was one of the things bothering me even though from what I understand a 'thin to medium' girdle is fine. Looking at the HCA results once again, the assumption the model makes, is that the stone has a medium girdle. The fact that the spread result for stone 1 was 'excellent', would this perhaps mean the crown angle is a little too small, making the table area a little too large and hence resulting in a 'spread cut'? This would therefore cause the girdle thickness to decrease?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:20:15 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:25:00 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Date: 6/4/2008 11:20:15 PM Author: rockpaper Hi, JulieN, is that because of the 'thin to medium' girdle? I am myself leaning towards number 2 also, I think the girdle was one of the things bothering me even though from what I understand a 'thin to medium' girdle is fine. Looking at the HCA results once again, the assumption the model makes, is that the stone has a medium girdle. The fact that the spread result for stone 1 was 'excellent', would this perhaps mean the crown angle is a little too small, making the table area a little too large and hence resulting in a 'spread cut'? This would therefore cause the girdle thickness to decrease? A thin-med girdle is fine. The lower half 75% on stone 1, coupled with the shallow crown, the stone may look a little dark, especially when viewed closely (earrings/pendants are seen from a farther distance.) However, stone 2 shouldn't have darkness problems.
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:25:00 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:29:18 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	JulieN, thanks for correcting me. So what is the best percentage for the lower half?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:29:18 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:32:00 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Actually, GIA rounds horribly, to the nearest 5%... There is no "best %," it depends on the other stuff that's going on, and what you want in a stone.
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:32:00 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:40:29 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Isn't 5% a very large error margin? Any idea why GIA use such terrible roundings? What I am after is a perfect balance between brilliance, fire and scintillation. I'm not after a BIR or an FIR, but rather something that falls in between.
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:40:29 PM

P: 6/4/2008 11:54:03 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Date: 6/4/2008 11:40:29 PM Author: rockpaper Isn't 5% a very large error margin? Any idea why GIA use such terrible roundings? What I am after is a perfect balance between brilliance, fire and scintillation. I'm not after a BIR or an FIR, but rather something that falls in between. Yes, it is... Anyway, reading more on LGF%... Quote Paul-Antwerp: So, if we have an angle of 41.5° on the LGF, the LGF-% will be longer if we have an MPF-angle of 41° as opposed to having an MPF-angle of 40.6°. The basic light return of the LGF's however will be the same, with the only exception that the surface will be smaller in the latter case. http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=65508 And considering that your two stones have different PAs, and the rounding to the nearest 5%, what I said before may not be meaningful. The first stone is a borderline BIC. The second stone is a TIC (what you siad you want.)
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:54:03 PM

P: 6/5/2008 12:13:21 AM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Thanks you JulieN. Looks like I'm finally reaching a conclusion as to which stone I will go for. Anyone else out there got any opinions on this matter?
Posted: 6/5/2008 12:13:21 AM

P: 6/5/2008 12:46:01 AM
dennyr Rough Rock Total Posts: 21 Last Post: 6/9/2008 Member Since: 6/7/2004	You would be hard pressed to find to other diamonds more evenly matched in all parameters. With the exceptional numbers you show for both diamonds, you cannot go wrong with either. The differences are to the point they will not be visible to the eye. Do both stones have a GIA laser inscription? You did not mention that factor which would be a nice feature with the VS1 clarity. Most GIA diamonds under a carat are laser inscribed since most come with the Dossier style of grading report. If one is laser inscribed and the other is not, that might be the tiebreaker factor. Denny Reinke Diamond Source of Virginia Richmond, Virginia
Posted: 6/5/2008 12:46:01 AM

P: 6/5/2008 4:03:13 AM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,228 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	I would go for the second one. Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 6/5/2008 4:03:13 AM

P: 6/5/2008 5:09:07 AM
honey22 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,950 Last Post: 11/19/2009 Member Since: 7/29/2007	Date: 6/5/2008 12:46:01 AM Author: dennyr You would be hard pressed to find to other diamonds more evenly matched in all parameters. With the exceptional numbers you show for both diamonds, you cannot go wrong with either. The differences are to the point they will not be visible to the eye. Do both stones have a GIA laser inscription? You did not mention that factor which would be a nice feature with the VS1 clarity. Most GIA diamonds under a carat are laser inscribed since most come with the Dossier style of grading report. If one is laser inscribed and the other is not, that might be the tiebreaker factor. I have to disagree here - Stone #1 does not show exeptional numbers - it only has a very good cut grade which IMHO is visbile to the eye when comparing to ideal cut stones, I have seen both in real life and it's easy to tell which is the better cut. Stone #2 is a goer, however, you could still find killer cut stones at Whiteflash or Good old gold, they both have superideal cuts which will blow a GIA very good out of the water! Either pick stone #2 or try an ACA from WF or H&A from GOG - good luck! Wedding Date Take 2: 26th November 2009!
Posted: 6/5/2008 5:09:07 AM

P: 6/5/2008 5:13:13 AM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Hi dennyr, I do not know whether they are laser inscribed. Are the inscriptions done on the girdle? As for similar stones, there were 2 from another supplier with very similar properties. Thanks for the advice. Lorelei, I've decided to go for number 2, thanks for reassuring me with my choice.
Posted: 6/5/2008 5:13:13 AM

P: 6/5/2008 5:17:32 AM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,228 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	Date: 6/5/2008 5:13:13 AM Author: rockpaper Hi dennyr, I do not know whether they are laser inscribed. Are the inscriptions done on the girdle? As for similar stones, there were 2 from another supplier with very similar properties. Thanks for the advice. Lorelei, I've decided to go for number 2, thanks for reassuring me with my choice. You are welcome! We would love to see pics when you get it!!! Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 6/5/2008 5:17:32 AM

P: 6/5/2008 12:29:27 PM
dennyr Rough Rock Total Posts: 21 Last Post: 6/9/2008 Member Since: 6/7/2004	The GIA diamond grading report should indicate if the diamond is laser inscribed or not. If the GIA report is the Dossier format, the diamonds are always laser inscribed with the GIA number. Yes, the inscription is on the girdle and is a nice feature for identifying your diamond since the VS1 clarity will mean it will be hard to see the diamonds fingerprint of inclusions. Diamond #2 looks to be a great choice. Denny Reinke Diamond Source of Virginia Richmond, Virginia
Posted: 6/5/2008 12:29:27 PM

P: 6/9/2008 5:00:55 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Lorelei, I will try and post some pics of it eventually when it all comes together. Dennyr, They actually were both laser inscribed, I kinda missed that, but yes it is clearly shown on the report. People I will now request your help once again as it turns out that the stone I had picked (with your help of course!!!) is no longer available. They have sourced a replacement but I am not too sure whether to go with this one, or tell them to source another one for me. Here is the comparison: Original Diamond picked out (stone #2): Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.39 - 5.41 x 3.31 mm Carat Weight: 0.59 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 61.3 % Table: 57 % Crown Angle: 33.5° Crown Height: 14 % Pavilion Angle: 41° Pavilion Depth: 43.5 % Star length: 50 % Lower Half: 80 % Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Needle, Cloud Replacement Diamond sourced (lets call it stone #3): Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.35 - 5.38 x 3.23 mm Carat Weight: 0.57 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 60.2 % Table: 58 % Crown Angle: 33.5° Crown Height: 14 % Pavilion Angle: 40.8° Pavilion Depth: 43 % Star length: 55 % Lower Half: 75 % Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Cloud, Needle, Pinpoint stone #3 has a lower half ratio of 75% like stone #1 had. However the crown angle is the same as stone #2, so am I right in assuming the stone will appear a little darker than stone #2 but not as dark as stone #1? Also I ran stone #3 through Holloway Cut Advisor, and it scores 0.9 with excellent grade in all areas. However it falls in the region of GIA but not AGS. Stone #2 scored 1.1 with excellent grade in brilliance, fire, scintillation and v.good in spread, and falls in the region of GIA and AGS. My hunch is stone #2 performs better than stone #3 (also stone #2 is 2 points heavier). I would really appreciate your feedback as I really need to rectify this situation.
Posted: 6/9/2008 5:00:55 PM

P: 6/9/2008 7:51:09 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Stone 3 is a reasonable choice. Darkness shouldn't be a problem unless she regulary looks at the stone closely (<10 inches) or wears a lot of dark clothes. AGS did their study and based their cut guidelines on 10 inches.
Posted: 6/9/2008 7:51:09 PM

P: 6/9/2008 8:02:14 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Hi JulieN, so by 'reasonable choice', do you mean that its a good choice, but not as good as stone #2? Should I get them to source another stone? I had already put down the deposit and then suddenly its no longer available!. Their guarantee states: In the unlikely event that the diamond you have chosen is no longer available, we will offer you an equivalent or better quality stone for the same price. You will be informed if this is the case and you are under no obligation to continue with the purchase. If you do, you may still take advantage of our 30 day money back guarantee. So my question is: Is stone #3 equivalent to stone #2 or better? Thanks again
Posted: 6/9/2008 8:02:14 PM

P: 6/9/2008 8:14:51 PM
honey22 Ideal Rock Total Posts: 3,950 Last Post: 11/19/2009 Member Since: 7/29/2007	Not sure what your budget is or where you are trying to purchase from but I would check out this link. Pick anyone of these ACAs - killer stones, top cuts, you can't go wrong with these superideals, basically they are just stunning. You don't need to worry about lgf's, HCAs etc - these are all AGS00 and the best of the best WF have to offer. If one of these are on your budget, I would take one of these in a heartbeat and you problem is solved! Hope this helps. http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/SearchResult.aspx?isStatic=false Wedding Date Take 2: 26th November 2009!
Posted: 6/9/2008 8:14:51 PM

P: 6/9/2008 8:23:29 PM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	Reasonable means it looks good by the numbers. I don't feel qualified to answer the equivalent question, as I haven't seen either stone. Sure, have them call in another stone if you want. Check with your eyes.
Posted: 6/9/2008 8:23:29 PM

P: 6/13/2008 11:05:44 PM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Hi again people. The supplier has now given me two other options (which have not been confirmed as available yet). They don't seem to perform quite as well on the HCA, scoring v.good rather than excellent. But I know that HCA is not 100% accurate and also doesn't take into account various factors which will effect the overall performance of the stone. Ultimately as JulieN said, what really matters is how the real thing looks to the eye. But here are the specs of my 3 options now anyway. Let me know your opinions, I personally feel my first option is the best, but what do I know? Stone A Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.35 - 5.38 x 3.23 mm Carat Weight: 0.57 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 60.2 % Table: 58 % Crown Angle: 33.5° Crown Height: 14 % Pavilion Angle: 40.8° Pavilion Depth: 43 % Star length: 55 % Lower Half: 75 % Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Cloud, Needle, Pinpoint Stone B Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.33 - 5.37 x 3.30 mm Carat Weight: 0.58 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 61.7 % Table: 58 % Crown Angle: 35° Crown Height: 15 % Pavilion Angle: 40.8° Pavilion Depth: 43.5 % Star length: 55 % Lower Half: 80 % Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Crystal Stone C Round Brilliant Measurements: 5.35 - 5.39 x 3.32 mm Carat Weight: 0.58 Color Grade: F Clarity Grade: VS1 Cut Grade: Excellent Proportions: Depth: 61.8 % Table: 56 % Crown Angle: 33° Crown Height: 14.5 % Pavilion Angle: 41.2° Pavilion Depth: 44 % Star length: 50 % Lower Half: 80 % Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted Culet: None Finish: Polish: Excellent Symmetry: Excellent Fluorescence: None Clarity Characteristics: Crystal Oh and honey22, those ACA stones do look great but aren't really in my budget. Plus I reside in the UK and so I would prefer to deal with a source based in the UK. Its far less hassle especially if things go wrong. But thanks for the advice.
Posted: 6/13/2008 11:05:44 PM

P: 6/14/2008 1:41:03 AM
JulieN Ideal Rock Total Posts: 7,148 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 7/25/2005	You could go with any of them. ...can you go to the jeweler to see them?
Posted: 6/14/2008 1:41:03 AM

P: 6/14/2008 5:29:45 AM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	Because the stones are in another country, and I have a deposit down for one stone, they only will ship one stone at a time. This is quite annoying especially if your trying to compare 2 or more stones. So of the 3 which numbers look the most appealing (I know there isn't actually a correct answer to this is there?)?
Posted: 6/14/2008 5:29:45 AM

P: 6/14/2008 6:13:14 AM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,228 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	I would be most interested in 1 and 2, ask the vendor if they can supply Idealscope images to confirm the numbers if possible. Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 6/14/2008 6:13:14 AM

P: 6/14/2008 7:02:11 AM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	I don't think they will Lorelei. I asked them before for plain images of the stone under magnification, they simply told me that they don't have images of the stones. Stone A scores far better than stone B in HCA results, but I'm not sure how much I should rely on that. For one thing both have girdles that aren't medium as HCA assumes.
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:02:11 AM

P: 6/14/2008 7:06:00 AM
Lorelei Ideal Rock Total Posts: 34,228 Last Post: 11/23/2009 Member Since: 4/30/2005	Date: 6/14/2008 7:02:11 AM Author: rockpaper I don't think they will Lorelei. I asked them before for plain images of the stone under magnification, they simply told me that they don't have images of the stones. Stone A scores far better than stone B in HCA results, but I'm not sure how much I should rely on that. For one thing both have girdles that aren't medium as HCA assumes. You are right in not using the HCA for selection, as it can't see the diamonds, and it isn't used for selection anyway...Could they at least send you a photo of the diamonds, if not magnified? Are these diamonds with Blue Nile? Nothing is more sacred as the bond between horse and rider...no other creature can ever become so emotionally close to a human as a horse. When a horse dies, the memory lives on because an enormous part of his owner's heart, soul, very existence dies also...but that can never be laid to rest, it is not meant to be... - Stephanie M Thorn
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:06:00 AM

P: 6/14/2008 7:19:21 AM
rockpaper Rough Rock Total Posts: 16 Last Post: 6/14/2008 Member Since: 6/4/2008	No, they're with this place: http://www.qualitydiamonds.co.uk/index.aspx They told me: "Sorry there are no images of the stone but remember if its shipped and you view it and for any reason you are unhappy there is no commitment to buy it and no charges to you. I am committed to making you a ring that you will be delighted with, let me know how you want to proceed."
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:19:21 AM

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