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Photographer dilemma!

P: 10/6/2007 7:38:23 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	I'm choosing between photographers. I'm going to use photographer "A" and "B" because photographer B has is giving us a deal outside of the studio he works for, so we can't mention his name or link him without risking getting him in trouble. Here are the packages we're being offered by each (they both include more, I'm only listing the things that are actually important to us) Photographer A: James Leonardo (www.jamesleonardo.com 8 hours coverage Engagement session Full set Digital Negatives 70-image Digital Flush Album $2800 Photographer B: Mystery Man (not to us, just to PS ) 8 hours coverage Engagement session Full set Digital Negatives 2nd Photographer for full day (I feel like this is a HUGE plus, yeah?) $3250 I would say Photographer B gets slightly better composed photos, and has more of an "artistic" edge. He's also more friendly and responsive than Photographer A, and was anxious to cut us a break. We met with him (B) at his studio today, and were not obvious at all that the $3600 basic package (for reference: including only 6 hours, NO digital negatives, NO engagement session and NO second photographer) was out of our price range, he seemed to intuit it very easily. He said that he liked us a lot and really wanted to work with us, which is why he wanted to give us the outside-the-studio deal. So... my question is, should we put the extra $450 into photographer B? I know in the grand scheme of a wedding, $450 is not a huge deal, but I also don't know whether I shouldn't trust this "under-the-table" deal. I didn't get a sketchy impression from him at all, and since he's tied to a big-deal studio I don't worry too much, but I just wanted to run it by you all! What do you think?
Posted: 10/6/2007 7:38:23 PM

There are 23 replies to this message. There are 23 replies on this page.

P: 10/6/2007 7:59:33 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	An example of Photographer B's work, since I can't link you... (crappy quality is not his fault, just resizing for internet )
Posted: 10/6/2007 7:59:33 PM

P: 10/6/2007 8:42:20 PM
labbielove Ideal Rock Total Posts: 862 Last Post: 8/27/2008 Member Since: 6/28/2006	I wouldn't be worried about the $450 so much as the "outside the studio deal" what does this mean exactly? will you have a contract? does he do work on his own often (i.e. can you get references?, does the studio he works for know he does this?) just some questions to think about, otherwise in the scheme of things, 450 is not much more to pay for for something as priceless as photography. there are other areas you can cut back on that aren't as long lasting.
Posted: 10/6/2007 8:42:20 PM

P: 10/6/2007 8:51:26 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Date: 10/6/2007 8:42:20 PM Author: labbielove I wouldn't be worried about the $450 so much as the 'outside the studio deal' what does this mean exactly? will you have a contract? does he do work on his own often (i.e. can you get references?, does the studio he works for know he does this?) Thanks for replying, labbie! Yeah, I'm not sure what the outside deal would entail thank you for those good points to think about. He said that he does work like this from time to time, so it's not necessarily out of the ordinary for him--BUT he did say not to mention it to the studio as it may "get him in trouble." I get the idea that he's building his career to go solo eventually, or something. Should I email/call and ask him about getting references for his independent work, and ask about how a contract would work? He also requires a 50% deposit to secure the date (this is normal, I assume?). The studio he works for is well-established and quite reputable, but I realize they couldn't be held responsible were the deal not to work out. He wouldn't be able to skip town with our pics though, as he is "findable" through the studio. Anyway, neither FI or I got any kind of "sketchy" vibe from him, he seemed very on-the-level and just enthusiastic about shooting our wedding. Then again, I don't know how good of a judge either of us are in that area... Hmm... what do you think??
Posted: 10/6/2007 8:51:26 PM

P: 10/6/2007 9:33:38 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Okay, FI and I talked more about it (my dad weighed in too!) and we're gonna meet w/ him next weekend. This is what we're planning to ask: 1. Does his contract at work allow him time off for independent projects? ...and if not--can he guarantee that he will be free, and not called at the last minute for a project for the Studio? 2. In the event that he's not able to make it to the wedding, what's the backup plan so we're not left w/out a photographer? 3. Can we see work samples for the 2nd photographer that he'd bring with him? 4. ........? What else am I forgetting here?
Posted: 10/6/2007 9:33:38 PM

P: 10/7/2007 3:25:09 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Do you trust someone with that kind of money who will go behind his employers back? I wouldnt...... Id say find photog C ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 10/7/2007 3:25:09 AM

P: 10/7/2007 3:32:20 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	I just reviewed all of photog A's online shots. There were 3 or 4 wow shots and a whole bunch that were .. what was he thinking? For the most part it was solid work but id like too see a lot more wow shots from someone I was going too hire out of that many pictures. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 10/7/2007 3:32:20 AM

P: 10/7/2007 3:42:17 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	Date: 10/6/2007 7:59:33 PM Author: musey An example of Photographer B's work, since I can't link you... (crappy quality is not his fault, just resizing for internet ) From left, nice shot in tough conditions, id have cloned out the light flare from the center light. 2nd whats with the angle... wrong time too use it... otherwise well captured. bottom left: what was he thinking? .. well shot but the concept does not work. bottom right: exellent use of light, not my favorite type of shot I think its cheesy but well shot. Based on the small sample id agree he has more technical skill than A.. ...... Some days I want to get geared up and shoot weddings again then I remember how big a pita they are.... LOL ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 10/7/2007 3:42:17 AM

P: 10/7/2007 5:01:32 AM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Storm, I appreciate the sentiment, but I actually wasn't at all looking for critiques of either of them. We have already formed our own opinions, which I'm confident in (since we're both quite experienced with photography). I probably should have left their work completely out of the equation! Keep in mind, also, that $3000 is lowballing it for photography in LA. Some people may have $10,000 budgeted for photography, but we certainly are not those people! All we care about is getting a few great shots and remembering our day, which both of these photographers are MORE than capable of accomplishing. It's great if you think you can do better, and perhaps in your area you can, but we have FULLY shopped the competition for the past 6 months, and have found nothing better for the price (on which we are maxed out). Thanks for offering your opinion, though. I appreciate that you were trying to help.
Posted: 10/7/2007 5:01:32 AM

P: 10/7/2007 5:36:33 AM
Stardust Rough Rock Total Posts: 37 Last Post: 10/7/2007 Member Since: 2/28/2007	I agree with meeting with him. It sounds as though you're asking all the right questions as well. Let us know how it goes!
Posted: 10/7/2007 5:36:33 AM

P: 10/7/2007 5:44:14 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	well scuse me when ya posted the images I thought ya wanted an opinion on them. 3k-4k in my area is high end, $750 to $1k is low end. Most weddings are 5k-6k total around here. oh well I still think that going behind his employers back is a red flag if that helps. ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 10/7/2007 5:44:14 AM

P: 10/7/2007 5:48:08 AM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Date: 10/7/2007 5:44:14 AM Author: strmrdr well scuse me when ya posted the images I thought ya wanted an opinion on them. 3k-4k in my area is high end, $750 to $1k is low end. Most weddings are 5k-6k total around here. oh well I still think that going behind his employers back is a red flag if that helps. It does, and we had thought of that. I'm hoping to find a way to resolve that "red flag" in our minds, in either direction. I was posting the work for reference of B's work being superior to A's, but then, with limited pics (chosen by me, not the photog) it's always difficult to get a full comparison. Most weddings are 45+k where I live. Our budget is less than half that. 13k of that is dedicated to the venue and food, and we are DIYing nearly everything else just to be able to afford photography and flowers.
Posted: 10/7/2007 5:48:08 AM

P: 10/7/2007 5:50:16 AM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Date: 10/7/2007 5:36:33 AM Author: Stardust I agree with meeting with him. It sounds as though you're asking all the right questions as well. Let us know how it goes! Thanks Stardust! Let me know if you think of any other questions to go in with
Posted: 10/7/2007 5:50:16 AM

P: 10/7/2007 6:36:35 AM
strmrdr Ideal Rock Total Posts: 23,296 Last Post: 10/9/2009 Member Since: 11/1/2003	its kewl.... To give you an idea one of the most expensive ones in my area: 2 shooters and an assistant High end leather covered album. Printed proof book. No limit on time or locations 35-8x10's plus 52-4x5's And 1 - 16x20 Custom Enlargement $3250 Like most top end shooters he don't do CD's. Last wedding I went too the rent for the Church and reception hall was $400 with a $200 cleaning deposit for up too 250 people.1/2 off for members of the Church. $800 photo package Food was around 2.5k for 100 people. Buffet style with 3 mains 2 sides and salads. Cake was free Dress was $800 flowers I dont know but id say around $500 they didnt have a lot of them Tux rental was free with groomsmen rentals. ($60 each) ........... Karl has joined the diamond trade and is now posting as Karl_K
Posted: 10/7/2007 6:36:35 AM

P: 10/7/2007 11:35:34 AM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Thanks Storm. I've helped a couple of friends "back home" (nowheres-ville, Illinois) look for vendors, so I know how much cheaper it can be elsewhere. It's simply not realistic here. Two hours with a decent headshot photographer at his studio (no travel fees) runs you $500 minimum. Photographer B doesn't offer a CD within his studio (studio policy) and does outside. A CD is 100% vital, and I absolutely refuse to work with anyone who won't offer it. Expectations in that area have changed very much, at least in LA. The only photographers that can get away with not offering digital negatives are those who specifically do events, and anyone who does headshots/fashion/etc. would be laughed out of town if they required their clients to buy their prints through them. I'm holding my photographer to those same standards. Out of curiosity, HOW do you know all the dollar amounts for the last wedding you went to?
Posted: 10/7/2007 11:35:34 AM

P: 10/7/2007 11:49:54 AM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	For everyone else, as long as we've moved to cost of weddings in different parts of the country: http://www.costofwedding.com/ LA says $33,700... which seems low to me (but beach weddings can be done very inexpensively, and we sure have a lot of that here). My hometown says $23,300. I like to remind FI that I'm staying more than $3000 under budget for a tiny town in the midwest, but doing it in one of the most expensive cities in the U.S.
Posted: 10/7/2007 11:49:54 AM

P: 10/7/2007 12:03:43 PM
Sabine Ideal Rock Total Posts: 2,883 Last Post: 11/21/2009 Member Since: 8/16/2007	One question I would want to research/ask him about is that if he IS in breach of his contract with the studio by working on his own, would that have any legal ramifications on YOUR contract with him...i.e. could you somehow be left without any photos because he was working outside his contract.
Posted: 10/7/2007 12:03:43 PM

P: 10/7/2007 12:09:27 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Good point, Sabine! Thank you so much for posting that, I'll add that to the list of things to ask him.
Posted: 10/7/2007 12:09:27 PM

P: 10/8/2007 1:43:14 PM
Pandora II Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,272 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 8/3/2006	As long as I had a proper contract with him, I wouldn't worry about working outside the studio with him. A lot of photographers/designers do this sort of thing, especially if they are thinking of going it alone later. Also the agencies/studios take quite a whack of money. When I was designing, my agent wanted 45%! I wasn't tied into an exclusive contract with her, but even if I had been I would have still done work on the side. I also think that having the digital negs is a must. If you like his work better, make sure you are legally covered and spend the extra. The really important thing is ensuring that he will be available on the day - but then we all have that worry, I mean, they could get hit by a bus or get ill etc.
Posted: 10/8/2007 1:43:14 PM

P: 10/8/2007 5:56:49 PM
chinglish Rough Rock Total Posts: 55 Last Post: 2/9/2008 Member Since: 10/7/2007	I think having 2 photographers is a must, the second photographer can cover more details and guest interactions while your main one can focus on you and bridal party etc. Your package sounds like a great deal and is about par with the professional photographers in my city (toronto). I agree with PandoraII, a lot of designers/photographers do this when they want extra work to build up their portfolio. As long as he seems honest about WHY he's doing this outside of his regular studio work - and you have everything detailed in the contract - it should be fine! Some good questions might be to ensure all his equipment he is using is his own, and he's not 'borrowing' the studio's equipment - just to make sure he doesn't end up losing your images or on the day of, he couldn't get his hands on the stuff he uses from the office.
Posted: 10/8/2007 5:56:49 PM

P: 10/8/2007 6:01:09 PM
fatafelice Ideal Rock Total Posts: 1,746 Last Post: 11/21/2009 Member Since: 7/27/2004	Does B include any sort of album, like A does? That is a significant value, imo.
Posted: 10/8/2007 6:01:09 PM

P: 10/8/2007 6:35:56 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Date: 10/8/2007 6:01:09 PM Author: fatafelice Does B include any sort of album, like A does? That is a significant value, imo. No. In-studio, he does, but we just told him all we actually wanted (engagement session, all the digital negatives, 2nd photographer, 8 hours) and he gave us a price. I actually have little to no interest in the album. I would MUCH rather do it myself than pay extra to my photographer to have it done! Date: 10/8/2007 5:56:49 PM Author: chinglish Some good questions might be to ensure all his equipment he is using is his own, and he's not 'borrowing' the studio's equipment - just to make sure he doesn't end up losing your images or on the day of, he couldn't get his hands on the stuff he uses from the office. Good suggestion, thank you!!
Posted: 10/8/2007 6:35:56 PM

P: 10/8/2007 7:39:11 PM
Pandora II Ideal Rock Total Posts: 6,272 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 8/3/2006	Just to add, make sure that he agrees to bring a laptop and have the images downloaded onto it at regular intervals as a backup in case something goes wrong with the memory cards - it's also a way to check that the equipment is all working. If there are 2 of them should not be a problem. A lot of pro-photographers do this here in the UK. If there is a problem, there is time to rectify it - up to a point - but certainly better than trying to reshoot the whole wedding a different day!
Posted: 10/8/2007 7:39:11 PM

P: 10/8/2007 8:18:39 PM
musey Ideal Rock Total Posts: 11,179 Last Post: 11/24/2009 Member Since: 9/30/2006	Pandora, what an EXCELLENT suggestion! I would never, ever have thought of that. I'll make sure to ask whatever photographer we are going to book about that. Thank you!
Posted: 10/8/2007 8:18:39 PM

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